The Amway Scam
September 24th, 2006 | Published under My Stuff | 851 Comments
A while ago I received a phone call from a person who had been referred my number from a friend, who wanted me to take interest in a business idea of his. He told me he wasn’t currently planning on employing anyone, but wanted to get a business idea across. Although skeptical, I decided to hear him out, see what he was on about and what this amazing business idea of his was.
He was from a company called “IDA” (http://www.idabiz.com.au/) which was part of “Amway Corporation.” He tried to sell me the dream, without giving much information as to what the actual business was. In fact, he told me more about cars, yachts and houses than anything to do with this actual business of his. He also gave me a few ‘motivational’ CDs – this is when I started to suspect this as being a scam.
After this encounter I was pretty sure it was all crap. It sounded all great but as the old saying goes, “If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is too good to be true”. Why does some guy that’s never even met me before want to make me rich? But instead of just claiming it as a scam, I decided to do some research. The following is what I found out, information and a warning to others.
So, first of all, Amway is the largest multi-level marketing organisation in the world. It makes billions of dollars a year through sales of soap, water purifiers, vitamins, cosmetics and so on. Amway claims their products of high quality and does business with other market leaders such as Coca Cola. In Amway someone is recruited as a distributor by buying a few hundred dollars of Amway products from an ‘upline’. Every distributor tries to recruit more people in order to make bonuses off sales of their recruits.
It goes like this: If I buy $200 of stuff from Amway this month, I’ll get a 3% bonus check (3% of $200= $6). If I share the opportunity with nine others, and we each buy $200 of stuff from Amway this month, they each were responsible for $200 and will get $6, but I’m responsible for $2000, moving me to the 12% level. I get $240. However, I’m responsible for paying the bonuses of the people right below me – $54 – so I keep $186. I make more because I did more, I found nine people who wanted to buy at a discount and get a bonus for doing it. After I reach the 25% bonus level there are other bonuses that kick in, but they’re all based on the volume of product flow, not on signing people up or having lots of people.
Amway denies this way of sales as being a ‘pyramid scheme.’ It is true that Amway is not an illegal pyramid scheme and the courts have ruled this out as well, because Amway sell products. Therefore Amway is a legal pyramid scheme. Amway has also been spoken of to be a ‘cult’:
Graham Baldwin of the United Kingdom compares an Amway motivational meeting to a revival or cult meeting. The former university chaplain tries to help people break away from religious cults with his program called “Catalyst.” Soon after one of his broadcasts, he got a call from a man who explained how the group he had joined a year earlier was slowly taking over his life.
There were the huge monthly meetings at venues like Wembley Conference Centre where he and thousands of other followers were worked into a passionate frenzy then told to go out and find as many new recruits as possible; there was a powerful doctrine that frowned on television, newspapers and other ‘negative’ influences; there was the strict dress code and advice on how to bring up children and relate to loved ones; there was the fear that to quit would mean giving up hope of a happy future.
However, having seen the television show featuring Baldwin, the man now alleged that he was being subjected to mind control techniques and being manipulated by those above him. He wanted advice on making a possible break. Baldwin asked which cult the man was in.
“It’s not a cult. It’s not a religion. It’s something called Amway” (Thompson).
Whether a cult or just a sales scheme, Amway recruiters use a motivational approach to sell their products, or to resell their products for sale to you. They talk about extravagant figures and speak highly of the quality of their products, because the more people they can get to sell their products, the more money they make themselves. In this sense, it’s more a ‘pipeline’ scheme. It may be legal because basically it is just a business, but whether it is really profitable in the long term is not likely from an independent seller who has been recruited by an ‘upline.’
It is important to remember that the people at the top may be able to ‘promote the dream’ because they themselves have achieved it, but the only reason they have achieved it is by manipulating the smaller people in company to give their majority of profit margin.
One weekend this summer over 12,000 enthusiastic people gathered for a rally in Richmond, Va. A handful were wealthy distributors of Amway Corp’s products; the rest wanted to be. The meeting began with a prayer and a Pledge of Allegiance. On stage, Bill Britt, the master Amway distributor who organized the rally, introduced the other top distributors, who had arrived in their Cadillacs and Mercedes, flaunting expensive furs and jewelry. With the introduction of each of these role models, the crowd cheered.
This is not to saying that Amway encourages fraud; they are not a fraudulent business. But they encourage the gullible that they can become rich beyond their wildest dreams by selling their products. These people trying to encourage you become rich themselves, and not by selling Amway products – but by selling the concept of Amway and inspiration materials, such as books, tapes, seminars etc. which are aimed at motivating someone to think positively.
It is possible to make money selling Amway products, but it should not be expected to make the amounts that you are told you can, that is a flat-out lie. In fact, the really money in Amway is selling their motivational materials, ie. selling hope. Well if your up to here and actually read all of this, well done! I hope this helps people to stay aware of the people out their trying to sell false and impossible dreams. If you want to make big money, the best way is to work and plan hard.
851 Comments
Colin Bradley on May 17th, 2008
Well, after all is said and one, there is usually a lot more said than done! I started as a distributor in 1976 in Australia just to get the products. Had a lot of fun, got good products, no pressure to buy tapes or go to meetings and met a heck of a lot of really great people. Built up a group of over 1,000 downlines, nobody was complaining and most were happy souls. Then the Bill Britt “religion” came to town (Perth, W.A.) and then our world got all screwed up as these idiots decided to con people into parting with all their money on books, tapes and meetings. At least now in the U.K. after threats and a court case from the government, Amway has decided to do it right and ban these greedy parasites and let decent people do what the founders of Amway always said, use the products, find 20 regular customers and let others know they can start a business to do what they want with.
Lora Maxhan on June 6th, 2008
OK, so how does IDA tie in with amway?
This is the group that are actively recruiting people without really giving anything away! Been involved with a couple of MLM companies before so I recognize the strategy involved but after 2 meetings they are still not saying anything much (apart from the usual “dream” hype) and the mention of amway & coca cola, (that kinda puts me off any-away)
just curious if anyone can enlighten me
Cheers
Lora
Luke on June 6th, 2008
As far as I can tell they register a business name and ABN and sell their Amway products to you through it. This way they don’t have to mention Amway, as most people will be familiar with the name and no longer be interested once they hear it.
eppo on June 25th, 2008
I was just wondering if the author of this obviously factual representation of Amway has any success in other areas of their life. If not, I urge people who are reading this to only follow successful examples to build your future. I am in the business and all I’ve come across it genuine, beautiful people who want more for your life that you want for yourself. All I’ve come across are people with integrity and honesty. Yes there may be a few minority who work in this business in the wrong way, but so does every industry. But bad news travels. My suggestion to the author is turn off your TV and only spread good news as this article is only selling the idea the Amway is corrupt. It is only opinion, not fact, but you talk as they you are the font of all knowledge on the subject. You are selling your idea, do you not see the irony in this?
People who read this, I implore you to find out for yourself. Go along to a workshop and see the plan, talk to people in the business until you find someone you can relate to. Do not buy into other peoples opinions and base your life on successful exampes and those that only spread good news, because words are sounds given by your thoughts. What you think, you get.
What’s the alternative, shop through Walmart, as they fly their executives around on 20 lear jets all over the world… and crew manufacturers in the process. What’s the alternative? The Web is here, change or dissolve.
Luke on June 25th, 2008
You sound like an Amway seller! And I appreciate comments from both sides of the argument, hence I’ve approved your comment. Have I had other success in other areas of my life? Yes, I am confident I have. I’m in a good course at a reputable university, work hard and have very nice car at 21 which I paid for myself (while working only part time). Hell, I have a lot more than those stuck with huge amounts of Amway products they can’t sell – and that is a common situation I know people have had!
And yes, the post is opinion, hence the purpose of web blogs! I do urge people into reading into those opinions of both sides, and make a decision after your own thoughts on both. Of course, someone trying to convince you it isn’t a scam has more benefit of you believing them, so all I can say is be careful!
Fox on July 15th, 2008
This is a very interesting topic, one which I have become interested in more recently. I actually live with a guy who is involved in this type of “business”. He seems to spend a lot of his time going to meetings, talking about goals and dreams and reading every self help book under the sun. I have approached him a couple of times about exactly what he does but he is always very light on detail. I come from a very strong financial background so maybe he might be reluctant in fear of educated opinions. As a watch this easy going guy go from spending his weekends doing what he loves to driving all around the countryside meeting with people and selling the “dream”, it does concern me a little. Does anyone have a subtle way that I could possibly approach this guy and maybe enlighten him on what his “life” used to be like before his business venture and if the rewards are really worth not having a lifestyle! Even more so given the nature of the business and almost impossible ability to make any sort of money.
Luke on July 15th, 2008
I’d show an interest in what he’s doing and ask him casually what it’s all about, not like you’re approaching him about it but rather you have an interest in it yourself. Hopefully you can get some more info about what he’s doing and whether he is really in fact wasting his time. He may be enjoying what he’s doing, or on other hand he may be wasting a lot of time and money with no return.
I’d definitely be interested in what happens for myself and all that read my post and the comments. Maybe some other readers would have some ideas of how to approach him, so if you do feel free to post. And Fox, feel free to comment with any updates on the situation.
Jared on August 13th, 2008
Hi all,
I was involved in an Amway business and used the IDA system back in 2002/2003. Amway is basically the product provider (the sweet 16 core products such as cleaners, Artistry Cosmetics, Emma Page Jewellery, and everything else that they ask distributors to sell. IDA, which I will refer to from now on as “the system”, is the business that provides the books, tapes, CDs to the users of that IDA system. There are many other systems that are around such as “Dreamchasers” which are education systems that have been created by the highest level of distributors in the Amway business.
When I signed up for an Amway distributorship, I had seen the plan, I had also seen a few others such as Omegatrend. I liked the idea and was probably sold more on the dream, that for a few hundred dollars I could effectively be in business for myself and have the potential to create an unlimited passive income.
I subscribed fully, attending out of town meetings and the once per year conferences, reading books, showing the compensation plan. It was the think to do “if you are serious about building your business” as my upline told me. After a year of doing everything I could and spending way more money than I was making, I started asking the big question of my upline “Silver” distributors as to whether they were recieving the income that they were supposed to for their level of distributorship. I was astounded that the answer was no- some months they recieved considerably less than what we were telling people they could expect if they built the buiness to that level. I made the decision there and then that I would concentrate my efforts on something else and didnt renew my buiness.
I also came to hear that many of the top distributors at Emerald and Diamond level made much of their income not from the Amway business, but through the books, tapes and seminars that were sold through the system.
Amway is a great opportuntiy, it sells billions of dollars worth of product. Would love to hear stories from people who have joined in the past 10 years and made it big as I suspect that the people that are making millions joined when it first became available.
Luke on August 13th, 2008
Thanks Jared, it’s good to hear different views of people’s experiences with Amway. I appreciate your comment. Considering I was only ever approached, not actually involved, you can give some insight into the truths, and maybe even mistakes, in my article of opinion.
Cheers.
FORBID yourself to buy the dream » Own Business on August 21st, 2008
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Arthur on August 30th, 2008
Hi every one, I to was asked by a friend to meet someone about an idea of making money easier then i can ever dream of, Which have to admit it all sounded great and had come to my ears at the right time in my life for i was sick of what i was doing and had no idea of what to do. Anyway by the end of the meeting i was signed up, mind you only by the dreams of what i want and how easy i WILL get. Anyway so i said i will give it a good in trust of this friend. But i spent more money then i normally would on my shopping, spent more money on things i didn,t need to brain wash me to belive that i can( and the meetings to tell me that Amway will get me there. Not to metion the Big week ends full of actors and entertainment and the glamour and so on and so just to make you belive that you can. So basicly if your a scamer with on friends you will love it, but if your an honest person then you will most probable not renew your membership. So i say to all be sure if this who you are. Good luck
lauren on September 3rd, 2008
I’m currently being hassled by people for amway. I had no idea it had anything to do with amway until i went to a seminar in lane cove. I broke down in tears today tring to tell them no but they keep insisting. They sell the idea of being rich and claim that riches equals success. How the hell can i get them off my back? I am successful! I’m a genuine person who is very happy with their life and it had nothing to do with money!
If it sounds too good to be true it usually is. Listen to your instincts. I felt nothing but pressure and the same message being driven into= sign up! I was told i could earn 160k per year with 200k bonus. Liars!
They never actually explain what is required of you but they do explain that you must pay $99 or $160 start up costs and that their products are nice. It wasn’t until the end of the seminar that we were told it was amway.
The people make me physically ill because they make you feel so inadequate with where you are in your life. The seminar was full of youngsters/mid twenties. Nobody at the seminar admits to the amount of success they’ve head, in fact nobody had a rags to riches story to tell at all!
Warning= it was people promoting i-commerce first.
Steve on September 4th, 2008
I have been involved with Amway for over twenty years (with IDA). I can honestly say it is probably the most mis-understood business in the market place today.
To me it is the way of the future. Why else would I be encouraging my children to get involved.
A couple of things Luke. You can’t have a “legal pyramid scheme”. Companies like Coca Cola, Harvey Norman, Hertz don’t get involved with pyramids – they have a reputation to uphold! They have lawyers today!
In your research Luke, did you actually speak to someone that had ‘made it’?
Or did you just ‘search the web’.
Unfortunately when people want to express their opinions publicly, they actiually reveal (to the people that do understand) how little they actually do know about the business.
Feel free to contact me if you require further clarification,
Cheers
Luke on September 4th, 2008
Thanks, 2 very different comments.
I have to agree with Lauren about the claims of huge incomes, but no one actually seems to show any huge amount of success.
Steve, although I did find a lot of my research on the internet, and I haven’t met anyone who’s made it – I do know plenty of people STUCK with huge amount of Amway products they can’t sell! And it’s not to say there’s no one in Amway who hasn’t made it, of course there is, but they’re the ones preaching to the lines below them who are getting fooled into purchases of false hope or products they will likely not end up selling.
Extending on meeting someone who’s “made it”, I was surprised when I found out the IDA member who approached me seemed to be a lot less well off then me, in fact his vehicle was nowhere near that of someone who had “made it” although he claimed that he was on his way to being set with riches.
Onfire on September 4th, 2008
I was called by an amway representative and asked to attend a one-on-one meeting. on the phone i was asked if i was ambitious and seeking further career opportunities………….i said yes as it all sounded too good. So me, being the curious person I am, decided to further look into this and did my research, and also called the friend who referred me on to this representative. She said that she had a hard time with this representative who kept pestering her to join despite her not being interested. she said that she asked several times about the business and the respresentative did not reveal anything and kept coming back to saying how much money you could make and asking this the question “isn’t it your dream to be rich”. My friend apologised to me for giving her my number as she was pressured and told me not to attend the meeting as it was a waste of time. I really trust this friend so i took her opinion and did not attend the one-on-one meeting. I just feel that a business who is not prepared to be forward and try to “hide” things will never get me involved.
No matter how gullible you are, if there is any doubt in your mind then you should ask the questions, if they cant answer you directly then its a scam. that said, just remember everything comes with a price, so in fact it could be a successfull business but initially you will need to invest in it for it to grow.
Luke on September 4th, 2008
Well said Onfire, similar situation to me too. My friend who actually referred me to the Amway representative said the same thing; they were pressured and “just ignore him.”
ozamwayvictims on September 7th, 2008
Saddened though not surprised that misrepresentation and pressure tactics are being used by Amway distributors…..still to this day! When will they ever learn?
Steve, this “business” is not “misunderstood”. It is your fellow distributors that continue ignore the important concepts of honesty, transperancy and ethics in their dealings with prospects. It seems “dream selling”, misrepresenting the “business” (not disclosing that it’s Amway from the get-go), focusing on all the trappings of wealth this “business” could provide and pestering people to join still reigns supreme. And as people generally detest being played and bullsh***ed to, your “business” will continue to get slammed publicly around the net on blogs, forums etc.
In our case, we are not nor ever have been “distributors” but we have “lost” family members to the Amway cult, we say cult because of the many behaviours they exhibit have the characteristics of a cult. Hence, the reason why we established our blog.
If your planning to join Amway, please please do your research and do it thoroughly. Research the good, bad and the ugly. For the ugly, check out our blog and in particular our post titled “For Potential IBO’s”. We believe it contains valuable information and questions prospects should ask to assist with their decision making.
Cheers.
AD on September 9th, 2008
wow lots of input
these people (if that) care to much about
how much money they will make than integrity
and products. only tell you how much you will make and how easily.
To get them off your back tell them to f**k off, or
Tell them to give you thusands $ in advance seeing its so easy.
Jen on September 10th, 2008
You all might be just be getting recruited by the wrong people. You don’t have to buy or do anything… they suggest these meeting’s, or tapes. I have never bought anything that I didn’t need or want. And if you actual go to a meeting just for the heck of it, such as dream night, or the events that take place around the world, it’s all about meeting new people that do the same thing you do and dreaming big, and you guys are crazy to think there is something wrong with dreaming big! (though again, whoever is telling you these things NEED to be bought is nutts)
bumble89bee on September 15th, 2008
Hey all,
I’m very worried. I recently went to a meeting about a company I thought I was going to be offered a job from called I-Commerce. A very nice young girl I knew got me interested and her whole family is quite well-off from the company. After the meeting, which mentioned Amway and IDA as sponsers etc, I was told to not spread the good news as people have too many wrong opinions about the company. I’m very confused as to whether this is a scam or if I should just pay the initial $106 joining fee and start. I’m a poor uni student so, like some of the people posting on here said, ‘I can’t afford to spend the initial large amount of money’ to start ‘my business’. Is it worth me doing? I have a meeting with the girl soon and am scared to upset her as she is truly very lovely (which in itself made me suspicious).
Help!!!
Sincerely.
J D on September 16th, 2008
Hello Bumble89bee, I am an active distributor for the Amway/Network 21 organisation, I actually have a very large group of people under me, sound like you have been to one of the business presensation, I will suggest for you to do some really serious research online as you will probably discover the truth behind it all, as I have discovered recently. I implore you to do your own research as the OPPORTUNITY may not be as rosy as it all look to be. Take care.
L on September 16th, 2008
bumblebee you were prob at the same meeting as me. except mine was a $228 joining fee. it wasnt until i met up with this girl again that i realised we were basically going to be selling amway products. i was told it was i-commerce. i was told i would be making $$$. but everytime i asked her to clearly explain my role, or WHEN i would start seeing this money, she kept dancing around the question and saying how much freedom she has and how great it was bla bla bla. I told my sister about it and she laughed and told me it was a pyramid scheme. which is basically true except its legal because of the product exchange. im quite a trusting person and im easily influenced, but somehting keeps telling me just to back away. i know know after reading all of this input too that its just not worth my time to be spending $200 a month on shit i dont need, let alone wasting my time trying to find people to join that are probably going to be even more skeptical than me.
N Ash on September 17th, 2008
Dear fellow i-commerce peoples.
first of all.its a load of bulls***.
They are very convincing sales people, very cunning and witty.
so be extra care full.
my experience in this was, I was approached at work.and asked for a product for his car.anyways he flashed his new phone and showed pics of his show cars. I asked what he does for a living and said a businessman like Donald trump. I was impressed non the less.lol
He said that his company was looking for people to work in the I.T field bout 8 hours a week.but it wasn’t certain and he’d give me a call back.
Got a call back the next day for a 10 min interview.was successful for that.and spent another 2 hours at there gay ass work shop. Talking bout the dream and all this other bulls***.
anyways the guy gave me 2 cd to listen to.they are gonna go straigh out the window.
if this helps even one person from being conned ill be happy.
anyways great work to who ever started this forum.
GOTTA LOVE THE INTERNET.
IF IT SOUNDS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT F***IN ISS.
James on September 19th, 2008
After countless hours of research and actually conversed through email with a formal USA Emerald in Amway (for those who do not know much, it is a level where you are supposed to be financially free with around $100,000/annum passive income). He is actully suing Amway for misleading conduct and false information. The truth behind all these is that Amway product is not the key, little do they know is that those books, CDs and functions that Amway distributors are TOLD to attend by their upline is actually the INCOME (for your upline), where the money of the top people who has made it come from. To put it simply, the king pins who promote the opportunity and get you to work hard by using the SYSTEM, actually make 80-90% of their millions from the sale of the SYSTEM. We all think that they are rich via selling of soaps, floor cleaners etc. However, if you think clearly, how can you make a few million dollars a year selling laundry powers that cost like $80 for 1.5kg (SUPER DUPER concentrated as they say), how many people will buy it? Do your research people, you will find that Amway Motivational Organisations are being sued everywhere for false promises and telling people that you will make money via selling soaps, where in fact they are making money off YOU buying their motivational tools such as CDs and attending functions. Open you eyes and see. I do not talk trash or anything as unlike most of people who posts here, I actualy have over 200 people under me in Amway, why would I tell lies to hurt myself? If I can save at least one of you from anguish then I have dont my part.
bumble89bee on September 20th, 2008
Thanks guys for your advice.
I study law and was researching on some legal databases and read all the cases against Amway, thus I researched more into it and saw it for the scam it was. I am a pretty wary person usually but I knew the girl who asked me to join from primary school and am totally suprised at how sincere and trusting she was/is. Her family were all at the meeting and they seemed lovely as well.This shows you either how dedicated these people are to making money through such a scam or that they are totally oblivious to their actions…either way it was hurtful to know a friend put me in such a position.
I warn people who are naturally trusting to please be more wary of people offering jobs in ‘I-Commerce’ or such a scheme and to research for themselves if they don’t want to listen to my experience. The individuals involved in Amway are not necessarily bad people but that doesn’t mean you should sacrifice your trust to them.
Good luck.
HoboJo on September 23rd, 2008
I’m meeting with an IBO tomorrow.
My questions to him will be all about the Fundamental Base of the business. That is: what are the real products and what is the real attraction in buying them via the “system” as opposed to buying from anywhere else (ebay, online or physical store)
I personally am ONLY interested in trying to sell a marketing strategy/system (Network marketing or otherwise) that has a firm foundation of REAL PRODUCT, with value & quality that customers want to buy for same reasons that they would normally buy.
If the the main product that is being marketed is the Marketing system itself, and the seller is mainly promoting just the marketing system with little emphasis on the physical product, then for me its all abit like a house of cards.
If you feel the same way, dont do it.
If you feel pressured, then dont do it. Remember that YOU are the BOSS !
On the other hand, I dont listen to anyone that dismisses a system as a “Pyramid scheme”. They just want to be able to give it label, throw it in a box, and move on, feeling they have now dealt with the issue in their own minds without actually getting any facts.
I personally think that Network Marketing Systems are a fantastic way to do business, in theory. But with “labelists”, as I label them, jumping on the “Pyramid scheme” band-wagon every time a network marketing system is shown to them, might be a hard slog to sell, if your not up to the challenge. Especially in Oz.
And as soon as I read the words “If it seems too good to be true then it probably is”, I stop reading and move onto the next post. These people are nah-sayers, with a Victim Mentality. This is negative reactionary behavior.
I say, If it sounds too good, have a damn good look at it. Reasearch the hell out of it, and try to keep your learned reactions and emotion out of the equation.
If you dont feel that you could personally be successful using a system, then just tell the person that is trying to sell it to you exactly that. If they get pushy and try to make you feel guilty buy asking “Dont you want to be wealthy?” (or such like): Be honest with yourself, tell them something like “Yes I do want to be wealthy, but I will not be successful with this system”.
The truth is, weather you like the situation or not, anything that has any association with Amway, is gonna be hard to sell in Australia.
Anyone disagree ?
Hmmm, so why am I meeting the IBO tomorrow ???
Research first, and be honest with yourself.
Well…..I have raved on a bit..but I hope that helped someone.
Krystal on September 27th, 2008
hi all, i got a phone call at work, i work in the gaming industry, about a customer really happy with my customer service skills. He said that he was interested in hiring poeple for the christmas period and was wondering if i was interested, i said sure. He said on the phone he would give me a call on the weekend giving me more information, so i just got off the phone and he said his name was sean forsyth, and said he wanted to meet at the shopping centre i work at on tusday after my shift. I decided to ask him what company he worked for because he was very vague, i googled it and im glad i did, because yeah, im a very a timid person and i get scared easily lol. So yeah, im glad im not going to get involved in this…
Sam on September 30th, 2008
Beware of amway and network 21. They are deceiving and only interested in selling you tapes and tickets to meetings where they act like a big cult.
Nick on October 1st, 2008
I have never read so much drivel in my life. Seems to me everyone is a poor victim of a scam. Sam is an expert on cults, Krystal works in the most honorable of industies – the “gaming” industry, bumble89bee knows a scam when she sees one as she is studying “law”, James has totally missed the point of how a network marketing business works i.e if it’s not a traditional business model it cant work, unless of course it is a successful business because of it’s “network” (go figure) N Ash has totally lost the plot AD requires no response ( not worth the effort) the rest of the blogs – well all I can say is, be careful what you read in blogs, particularly from people who have an axe to grind and are wallowing in their smug “victimhood” .
Luke on October 2nd, 2008
You seem to pick on everyone else’s opinion for various reasons – can you let us know what makes your opinions so right? What your qualifications or experiences are in the matter?
Nick on October 2nd, 2008
My qualifications and experiences are irrelevant. My opinions are no more right or wrong than anyone elses. I’m just intrigued at the lengths people go to to make accusations of scams / frauds etc, particularly about businesses that are legitimate, have been scrutinised by relevant authorities and operate within the laws and regulations of their state / country etc. Are they really that evil? As far as experiences go I will say that it is my experience that people who are victims of so called scams ALWAYS seem to be victims. They seem to be getting “scammed” by everyone, they never seem to take any responsibility for their actions and beliefs, everyone is out to GET THEM.
Ian on October 3rd, 2008
I too had the same opinion as many of the people listed here and I searched and trawled the internet looking for more and more negative to justify why I was better of not building an Amway business after doing it for a number of years in the U.K.
Heres the thing though there is a legit business in the system selling motivational or inspirational materials at $10 per cd approx $20 per book and $20 for a day seminar. I want to say that I have used books and cd’s from all kinds of organisations helping with self development and people skills etc and the info knowlege and skills that one gleans from this material is so powerful it helps to speed up the process of getting some success in life, not just monetary. It may be useful for everyone to look up the price of success seminars and see how they compare to Amway affiliated ones (by the way I have never been to and Amway one as they tend not to do this kind of training certainly not in the U.K.)
Anyway I came to live in Oz and I find my self building an Amway affiliated business very easily in comparison to doing it in the U.K after 8 years of absence, you Aussies are more entrepreueurial. I met a Diamond level in Amway lady here and asked some very direct questions and was satisfied by her answers she makes the money that she states, she is not high pressure and unlike may of the other systems that use Amway products this one is built on an honest foundation of genuine fellowship and friendship.
Be careful who you get involved with it is like any other business, do your due dilligence.Not all affiliated business’ are the same they are as varied as there are personalities. Good luck to everyone that is searching for something dont believe everything that is on the net. I have never heard anyone say that their business or venture faied because of their own mistakes or even stupidity we all try to justify ourselves myself included. I have a traditional business in the U.K. that operates without me I also have a job here in Oz and I am building this business using Amway systems when I combine all of the incomes together it is rather respectable and comes from multiple sources this must be the way to go in this day and age?
Jan da Costa on October 6th, 2008
Hi
I agree – I was approached the exactly the same way – you end up spending more than you earn to get those bonus cheques – I know of a couple of Emeralds that have put it on hold and also they earn less than what you are told at the meetings etc. Give me something that is a lot easier to do than having to qualify each month, and less meetings
Mags on October 10th, 2008
I built the business for 2 years, went to every meeting, listened to every cd I could get my hands on, sponsored a heap of family and friends and cold prospects i met around the place. I went 20k into debt in 2 years. Forced to buy ‘big ticket’ items by my upline so that I could move up to the next level and be ‘recognised’ as a leader in my group, if you buy one, you sell eight, right, ha ha not so. Then there’s the 100pv thats expected of you each month, another $400 in groceries. I did it all because like so many dedicated people we think it’s our chance. If the diamonds can do it we can do it, right? Once I came out of the Amway/Network 21 coma I was in I saw it all for what it was. I can actually go on a holiday to Hawaii now and pay for it myself rather than trying to qualify for a free holiday. Work out how much you’re currently paying for CD’s, seminars, functions, product, time on phonecalls, showing the plan, counselling etc and add it all up. With some planning you can have a great lifestyle without all the crap of going through rejection and the stigma of amway. I value my time in the business, I learnt a lot, especially reading between the lines from my upline, like any ‘boss’ in the end they are out for themselves and will happily make you feel like the most talented, special person in the world if it will feed their PV. If Amway is such a fantastic multi billion dollar worldwide organisation why do they charge so much for products? why don’t they put out their own cd’s on how to build their business? gee wouldn’t want their diamonds missing out on the dollars they earn from you buying your CEP every month and all the money they make from seminars. A nice little understanding they have isn’t it?? if a duplicate CD costs 50c to buy why sell it for $8.00, why not sell podcasts at a reduced rate? diamonds have the lifestyles they do largely from the cd’s and tools etc. Work out how much they make from seminars, call the place where the function is held and get a cost on hiring it, then add approx costs and work out how much they make from every Weekend seminar. I was astounded. I wasted 2 years and 81 peoples time that was in my group and went no where. I’m a sales executive for a job, so I had no problem recruiting people and selling the dream. After a while I woke up and walked away.
Matthew on October 11th, 2008
I had the exact same experience as Krystal, except I work for a large electronics chain.
I was stupid enough to meet this ‘Craig’ guy at a McDonald’s near my work but lucky for me my boss had told me his friend had gotten involved with something that sounded like ‘Craig’ had explained on the phone.
At this ’10 minute meeting’ I was presented with a pamplet to which he asked me personal questions such as “Where in my suburb I lived?” to which I replied, “That’s irrelevant”. Working in the retail filed gives you the skill of telling whether someone is spouting bull**** to which this man was.
He then proceeded to tell me that I could continue to work my “boring and tiresome job” or lay back and enjoy earning an “on-going income”.
He continued to say that there were masses of large corporations that have partnered with himself and his ‘large group of entreprenuer friends’, I was sort of trying to hold in my laughter at this stage.
He keep pressuring me saying that all he needed was for me to find “Two things on the pamplet” that I liked and he could include me in his seminar.
Obviously I didn’t agree and left.
This blog is a wonderful resource for all the young and even older people being conned by this organisation.
Well done!
lauren on October 13th, 2008
I’m so angry at the comments made by Nick. After being harassed by people involved in this i-commerce/amway operation and explained nothing but possible riches but not the work or money involved into achieving these proposed riches i tried to get awya from them. I recieved calls and messages on my cell phone and during a meeting a i cried saying i was terrified of being involved in this and all i was told was i was simply excited about the possibility of becoming rich. The names were Karl and Jaqueline, i met them in chatswood NSW and from the get-go i never got any of my questions answered. I’m no victim and i do not ‘wallow’ in a victim state of mind…but i could have been, just as i’m sure others have been. I’m an honest, young and a shy girl and they tried to take advantage of me. At the initial work shop everything seemed so creepy and unnatural, the young man conducting the meeting was getting everyone in a real hype about the amount of money they could earn and winning trips to around the world, like Japan (which is the current contest as far as i know).
We were told after joing up ($160) and investing a night’s worth of drinking (claiming us youngsters spend several hundred a week) and we could be rich within 18 months with the chance to also achieve bonus profits. Not one person at this meeting offered to explain their own personal experience with amway- like someone who gambles really because you never hear about the bets they lose but they shout to the roof when they win big.
When i said i was still unsure and wanted to leave the shoved cd’s and a book in my hand to help me think it over (poor dad, rich dad), they would not take no for an answer. I gave Jaqualine some phone numbers to refer and left her, then promptly warned my friends to ignore her as well. I hate that hell they put me through but i’m glad i didn;t fall victim to their way of thinking without proof of they’re words and ‘dream selling’ notions.
fiona on October 17th, 2008
now i am worried about that, my friend just introduced that to me. and i just sign up. what i was told is we don’t have to buy things that i don’t want to. we just buy things from the shops that belong to amway, then we get points. and introduce it to others to get more points. is that the way?one of my friends is actually making money from that. and he quit his part time job since he earns money from that busness.
Nick on October 17th, 2008
In response to Mags, Matthew & Lauren, it seems to me that your negative experiences have more to do with the people you dealt with rather than the companies. Like every industry there are always those who are out to get rich at the expense of other people. Not everyone involved in network marketing businesses are bad or have to resort to “questionable” tactics to recruit. From what I have seen, the concept of selling a product via a network is brilliant if done properly, most successful business operate via some form of network. If Craig, Karl & Jaqualine had to resort to heavy handed tactics to entice you, then I suspect they will not have a very successful career in the business, in fact I also suspect that they may end up being contributers to this blog in future.
It never ceases to amaze me that people think that by hounding and harrassing a “reluctant” buyer, that somehow that person will eventually join them as a business partner or customer.
I think that most people intuitively know if an opportunity is in their best interest. I suppose if someone is approached “aggressively” and joins, they are likely to use the same method. Companies like Amway etc should seriously look at the way their reps are presenting themselves and the business opportunity.
lauren on October 19th, 2008
Nick, why is it nobody at the workshop talked about their own success with this business? It was a packed room at the Lane Cove club, everybody was afting all chummy and nice and coaxing the newbies to be comfortable. Surely someone could have given some realistic figures? One or two shifty people is one thing, but a whole workshop full? Not one decent answer to any of my own questions? You catch more flies with sugar than vinegar and they seemed to be sugaring everybody up in that workshop.
I’d like to see a show of hands of who else has had similar negative expereince with others reps outside of Chatswood.
lauren on October 19th, 2008
Oh and i agree with Matthew. I work in retail as well, in electronics and i have been to so many sales training courses that you learn to read people so well when they tried to feed you crap. It’s blatantly obvious.
Note to JJaq and Karl: One someone is crying, saying no repeatedly, saying they are terrified in generally means THEY DON’T WANT TO BUY YOUR STUPID PHILOSPHY ABOUT BECOMING RICH SELLING CRAP PRODUCTS AT PREMIUM PRICES!
david on October 21st, 2008
I Joined ‘Amway’ in Ireland a few years ago!
what a scam
you are encouraged to buy their way way overpriced products, and try to sell the same to your customers! who u have to talk sh1t to constantly! i did one to one meetings constantly! I got no help, and to be honest it was NO Fun, only pressure! I Iost friends, and moved to a different county!
I will never buy a product from them ever ever ever
New Network 21 Member on October 21st, 2008
Hello all,
I recently joined the South African Network 21 Group. I have a few in my pipeline. I purchase my AMWAY products online simply because this way I do not have to go to the stores to buy my goods. The products that I use are far superior than what I can purchase at the local super market. Now I only go in to the Fruit & Veg store to buy my fresh products.
I do not punt and I do not purchase AMWAY products in bulk to distribute them. I do however encourage those in my pipeline to change their way of thinking and purchase their pasta, coffee, washing powder etc on-line. This is the E-Commerce Industry afterall is it not? I would far rather spend money on toothpaste from AMWAY then Woolworths or Pick ‘n Pay because, simply, purchasing another brand makes somebody else rich and I do not benefit. If all I receive at the end of the month is my discount on superior products (discount provided becuase of the sheer number of people in my pipieline purchasing products in the same fashion) then trust me I am happy with that!
When I was approached I was made aware that Network 21 was in partnership with the AMWAY Corporation. I was advised of the negativity AMWAY had received over the past years and made an educated decision on the matter. There was no hidden agenda and no misrepresentation. Should I decide at a later date to no longer continue with AMWAY it will be another enducated guess – and you will not hear me blaming ANYONE for my choices in life.
Alvin on October 22nd, 2008
First up, I LOVE MLMs (Multi-Level-Marketing)… We have Amway, Cosway, Questnet, and many more you can and cannot think of; selling products you can and cannot imagine. Like they say, variety is the spice of life. I have always disliked MLM from the moment I got to hear about the plan… that is, until my friend point out to me something positive about it.
He told me this at a time when I was feeling down: “I love MLM, when you are feeling down, all you need to do is to pay 5 dollars to attend their meeting and all the people shouting and acting happy and motivated will sure to lift your spirits (he said this knowing that I am anti-MLM).”
That is the extend of my “love” for MLM. Beyond this, I am still anti-MLM, in fact, this “uplifting” of my spirits comes at a cost to many people.
I am of a scientific background, so I will present here a brief logical analysis for people here. And for all the IBOs, please, read it with understanding, not flame. This is going to be long, bear with me. And this is a analysis about how MLMs are done here in my country, but the basic idea remains.
First up, I believe only 2 types of people will succeed in MLM; those who are so ignorant of what they are doing, and those who know what they are doing is wrong but still continue to do it.
1) Let’s get the record straight, there is hardly anyway for people to make money by personal sales.
Those who are familiar with the “business” will know that a typical sales pitch requires you to drive to meet your clients, do a product demostration, convince them that your products are good, close the sale, and even service the clients. All this takes time and effort, and the return is hardly worth the time, even if the profit margin is 30% (which it is not), selling products worth $100 will only get you $30, hardly worth the effort of time, petrol and responsibility spent.
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EXTRA: What makes MLM more terrible in my country is the fact that Amway, and many other companies’, products are marketed by the IBOs (NOT the company itself) as effective cure/remedy for ailments ranging from cold to diabetes to cancer. This is irresponsible marketing by the IBOs which they learnt from their uplines. The fact is that the parent company cannot make such claims as it breaks every law on drugs labelling and advertising you can think of. The truth is that it is scary, very scary in fact. Here we have a bunch of people not schooled in medicine making claims are outright lies. The fact is many of the IBOs are ignorant of what they are saying, but can you imagine the liabilities they are opening themselves to. That is one reason why we have many MLMs depending on “testimonies” from “users” rather than double-blind clinical trial data. In the event someone is sued for selling fake drugs, the parent company will not be held responsible, rather, it is the IBOs themselves who are in trouble. The fact that the parent company does not actively stamp out such practises speaks a great deal of how responsible they are (note that even an outsider like me know of the rampant abuse of testimonies, do not tell me that the bigwigs know nothing of them.)
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2) Most of the IBOs know that it is difficult to earn from personal sales too, that is why they are so active in recruiting people.
Assuming that it is indeed true that recruiting people and earning from the sales of the downlines can get you massive income (most of the time it cannot), we run into a HUGE global problem.
MLM talk about duplication of the business model day in and out, lets give them the credit and assume that it works 100%. For example I am the first person in the scheme, and I am supposed to recruit ONLY 2 downlines a month, so by second month there are 3 people in the program, my downlines duplicate my system and each recruit 2 more, and we have 4 new members who has to recruit 8, who in turn have to recruit 16, 32, 64,128, 256, 512, 1024, 2048, 4096, 8192, 16384, 32768, 65536, 131072, 262114, 524228, 1048576 (we have reach more than a million NEW recruits in 21 months, note that you have to add all the figures up to get the TOTAL number of members = 2,082,361). By the second year we will have roughly 16 million members. What is the population of your country?
For the benefit of the readers, I saw extrapolate to 3 years. The NEW recruit needed at the 36th month is……………………. 32 billion!!!!! How many people did you say we have on Earth? And the total number of members is……………. about 62 billion!
This is calculated from a two downlines method fully duplicated, but the fact is nobody uses 2 downlines these days, the more the merrier, 3 and 4 and more anyone?
The most obvious problem is that we will not have enough people on the entire Earth to duplicate the system (it will be enough if we add the insects), and the fact that Amway has been in business for more than 30 years and yet most of the Earth are yet to become member points to the fact that the system cannot be duplicated.
It brings us to the second more subtle point, and at the same time is a moral question. The fact is some do succeed (but not in a magnitude they claimed to have), but at what cost? Returning to my model, for simplicity, let us assume that the population of the world is only about 2 million. At the 524228 level, these people are going to tell 1048576 people the same story about earning passive income from downlines and what not, but the fact is 1 million of the people are already in the scheme, 1 million are the 1048576 new people, which leave us with nobody to recruit. This effectively means that the 524228 are lying to their 1048576 downlines. What morality is that?
I hope this is not too long, but I have to spell things clearly in the face of denials. Readers who are interested to know more facts and calculation, or want to comment on my fallacies in logic are welcomed.
Lastly, many IBOs asked me what made me so bitter about the industry, is it because I once joined a wrong scheme and got burned. I tell them no, the fact is I have never joined any schemes, and never been burned or cheated, its all thanks to my simple logic, and I don’t have to eat shit to know that it will ultimately taste like shit.
Luke on October 23rd, 2008
Long yes, but I found that I very interesting read Alvin!
Bob on October 23rd, 2008
MLM’s are a scam.
Anyone involved in them will try and speak in riddles and just plainly speak shit.
Like many on here you can plainly see.
Dribbling there gobbledygook.
They don’t care about anyone else but themselves.
You are but an ant to them.
The idea of an MLM scheme is to make the creators rich, not the participants.
When you understand that you will see, although it poses under the bare fine line of a legit business.
It is nothing more than a pyramid scheme.
The people who believe the lies, and participate in these scams.
Are worse than the people running them.
It goes back to this, people who leave there doors unlocked, create thieves.
The people who participate in these scams, create a market for them.
There is no industry.That also is made up.They try and legitimize pyramid ponzi schemes by calling it an industry.
As stated in the above article, the product selling is just to make it legal.
Otherwise it would get shut down.
The rest is a con job.
Thy on October 23rd, 2008
I believe this works you just have to work on it. Its important to understand it only cost 100 bucks to join and you got 90 days to think about it. I have just joined to day as a matter of fact and I am optimistic. This guy I met has basically retired at 30. Enjoys life. Visit http://www.poweronlinepublications.com to findout more facts
Albus on October 24th, 2008
Well I have read alot of the the comments above, mainly because I was contacted recently by one on my mobile and was told that there was a possible job offer and that my friend had suggested my name so I thought no harm in attending the meeting.
All the meeting was, his trying to tell me about the “dream” of the bone lazy Australian making money for doing nothing, ha.
He also went on about the fact that he was going to retire at about the age of 30 which is basically a lie because the way the scheme works is that it requires you to consistently look for new people to join, which is a job in its self.
Basically he went on about unrealistic idea.
He went on saying that if you go to the meeting, buy the books, and CD that come out weekly, that it would help you in making money, which ultimately was teaching you to recruit more members in different ways.
I ask heaps of questions mainly because of my curious nature knowing that it was to good to be true, he avoided answering most of my questions.
I ask anyone who is thinking that this is a fool proof plan, how many people would you have to recruit and how much products would have to bought, in order to make you a profit after you deduct the losses?
Are you guaranteed a stable income?
In my opinion it is just a way of selling out your friends and family, in order to to get yourself higher in the pecking order. It is the search for the legendary gold, the gold of all gold, FOOLS GOLD
Reboz on October 25th, 2008
Listen real close!! “STAY AWAY FROM AMWAY” It is
a “cult” they have people pretending to be christians or with other
religions but in reality all they want is your money,life and soul.
You might as well say “satin him sell made the amway scheme”
Believe me! I was a member, I found out about it the hard way.
Also to those who are still apart of Amway! Get out as quick as you can!
Jesus Christ Loves You!
Nick on October 27th, 2008
Alvin, what are you doing wasting your time on this blog? Your “message” should be out there for all the world to hear. Think of all the people you will “save” from the evils of MLM. The world needs people like you with “scientific” backgrounds who can do “logical analysis” . Perhaps you could SELL your knowledge and make money and get other people to do the same, so everyone will be saved. Oh sorry, cant do that, based on the numbers there are not enough people in the world for that to work. You may end up being seen as the “savior” with lots of followers of “anti MLM” crusaders. Oh sorry, then it would like like a cult would’nt it?. If your “scientific analysis” got out, a $trillion global “industry” would collapse. Oh sorry, I meant to say “a scam”. Of course, that fact that many people (sorry I meant IBO’s) would lose there businesses and livelyhoods and that all the employees of these ponzi/pyramid/cults would lose their jobs, would be ok, as they would have been saved You can then extend your analysis to every other form of selling of products or services so that the only businesses left would be the really honest and ethical ones that are not interested in making money or relying on repeat sales. Apparantly you can only really succeed in business if you apply the following rules.
1 Dont try and sell anything to anyone, especially your friends.
2 Outlay huge amounts of money upfront and on an ongoing basis
3 Dont EVER try to update your knowledge about your business/product/ service.
4 Dont EVER try and promote your business to more than ONE person at a time.
5 Make sure you present yourself in a “dour” “serious” “businesslike” manner at all times.
6 Remove the word “opportunity” from your vocabulary, and ONLY ever discuss your business or invite someone to see your business after you can prove that you have made $millions.
Yes Alvin I agree with Luke. Your blog was indeed “interesting”.
Congratulations to Bob on the line of the century,
“the product selling is just to make it legal.
Otherwise it would get shut down”
What the??????????
So I presume if they did’nt sell anything that would make it ILLEGAL? Then what would they actually be doing? What would be the point? Make WHAT legal?
Reboz, does Jesus Christ KNOW about Amway?. If He does then He is not doing a good job of warning people. Presumably, Amway is made up of people of NO religious persuasion, so christians, jews, muslims etc are quickly “converted”. Am I correct? Presumably, Amway is made up of people who are not able to make informed decisions about their own lives and are easily susceptible to mind control and manipulation. Am I correct?
BigBird on October 27th, 2008
Thanks everyone.
I met some people today from this I-commerce “BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY”
I knew straight away it was probably a scam, but thanks to the comments here I realise I was right. now I can cancel the meeting I was going too on thursday.
Nick on October 28th, 2008
Hey BigBird, how will you ever know if it WASNT a scam? I’m really interested in other people’s thoughts on what type of business opportunity would not be considered a scam. What are the signs? If a business is genuine, how should it be promoted to others?
I have a couple of questions for Alvin.
1 What % profit from $100 sale would you consider “worth the effort”?
2. How did the 2 types of people who succeed in MLM (the ignorant and the evil) actually succeed? Do you mean to say that they have succeesfully recruited “billions” of people in their downlines and have therefore made money? My understanding of most MLM’s is that you also get a small % of your downline’s production. This % is often capped to prevent the creation of a pyramid. Downlines who are more successful than their uplines can make more money than their uplines. Just like any other form of business that has built up a network of stores/oulets etc servicing multiple networks of consumers. MLM’s do exactly the same without the infrastructure and other operating costs. Pretty simple concept really, that works without being too “scientific”. Anyway, we should all be buying our goods and services from more “ethical” businesses that use honorable tactics to seduce people into buying (like tv advertising etc) and help their senior execs and wealthy shareholders get wealthier at other peoples expense. Those companies are not “pyramids”. Everyone from the CEO to the doorman all get paid the same. Profits are also capped so as not to make TOO much.
Give me a break!
Michael on October 28th, 2008
The whole time spent with the interviews and the meetings has still left me with the question. What the hell do they want from me besides 200 dollars. Every time I even asked a question all I got was misdirection.
Why would I want to become involved in something that leads you to believe that after twelve months i can make up to 5000 dollars with only 4 to 8 hours work a week while getting paid for my time only to find out I have to spend money on their products in order for me to get paid.
Stuff it I say if someone would like me to become involved in their buisness I want some upfront and direct answers to my questions not simply promises.
I’m not going to my next meeting and will dlelete my contacts number IMMEDIATLY.
Liz Henare on October 29th, 2008
Hi All,
Well Me and my husband have just signed up. This is all very interesting but here is my thoughts. Amway is the distribution company and there are and have been many different companies who use the Amway products to sell and make money. Amway itself cannot be blamed for allthe goings on of what these companies decide to do. It seems to me if Amway was so bad why is it still around. They have amazing, top of line products that are the fasted most popular products on the market and that is what attracts these OTHER companies to want to sell the product. IDA stuffed up with the way they chose to use Amways GOOD name. Its IDA’s name that needs to be looked at not Amway. Any business is run on sales why is that so wrong for Amway, Why are their products the most used in the world, why have they not been investigated to the point of stopping them if they are so dangerous and pulling wool over peoples eyes. That is because its not Amway that the problem its the companies like IDA that try to manioulate a good thing to suit. We all get tarnished by the same brush and for people who are having a great time doing this business have to explain themselves out of whay Amway is not a scam BUT IDA WERE. I hope this shines a different light on things. Thanks
Luke on October 29th, 2008
“Why have they not been investigated to the point of stopping them if they are so dangerous and pulling wool over peoples eyes?”
Good question – they have been investigated many times. The Federal Trade Commission fined them $100,000 for misrepresenting profits to distributors, They’ve also pleaded guilty to tax evasion, customs fraud and even been sued piracy (which they settled out of court).
So yes, they have been investigated AND fined over “pulling wool over peoples eyes.”
nate on October 29th, 2008
Hi all
Right firstly good arguments on both sides of the fence (except for alvin what a crack pot) and kudos to Luke for starting a really stimulating discussion.
Me and my partner signed up two weeks ago and we reached the first bonus level on monday so i will be getting paid for doing my shopping those of you who went to Coles or Sainsburys or Wallmart did they send you a cheque ??? no i didn’t think so did they deliver it to your door ??? again no they sit in their nice offices and drive their high price cars. Back to alvin, the numbers he was talking are stupid but if you did set up a distribution network like that you would make millions every year but its not about making millions for me i just want make enough to not have to work ever again and the plan my upliner has works he has shown me bank statements and if he wants he could stop signing people up stop working and still get his cheque around 7500 per month look what it comes down to is this isn’t for everyone but if you do see some thing in this then you should email me if luke will allow me to put my email address on here to be honest he sounds like the kind of person i want in my business again kudos Luke and Alvin you are a crack pot
The poster has wished to leave his email address: financedude83 [at] hotmail.com
Nick on October 29th, 2008
So has Coles Myer, McDonalds, Coca Cola, Woolworths, every major Bank at some stage, Telstra, Optus, various Pharmacuetical companies, the ATO, legal firms, accountancy practices, doctors, car dealers, builders, plumbers, electricians, even private individuals, so of which problably participate in this blog……..do I need to go on? Oh and even the occassional website operator ( really hard to get those guys as generally they hide behind dodgy names and you cant get an address).
Can some of the people that have been to meetings and not had questions answered, give some examples of questions they were asking?
nate on October 30th, 2008
nick when you started you would have been told as was i that we would come up against closed minded people who have a misconception about the business mainly from those guys that came to WA posing as a religious group and sold the idea of the business under false pretenses. What people forget is amway kicked them out, but the damage had been done. To be totally honest i was one of the guys bad mouthing Amway and affiliates, but when my old boss a very successful business man came to me i decided to listen and lots of what i had been told about the business is simply not true if you buy into any business and do nothing you get nothing, people this works if you put in some time and show the plan honestly and don’t hide the fact that its Amway look if its not for you then its not for you but i am a 25 year old sales man who will be retiring in 3 years you cant deny the facts amway is a multi billion $ conglomerate that has made lots of people very rich and more people financially independent a lot more than your typical working stiffs who work all there whole lives to retire on a pension and have to sacrifice life style to live
cheers nate
Rahul on October 31st, 2008
Hi I attended an AMWAY presentation today , I met this guy in the superstore in Melbourne he said they were doing some IT business and wanted educated people like me to attend a conference.
I gave my number and after a week I got a call.
I went to attend and in 5 mins figured it out that this is AMWAY however in the whole discussion they never even mentioned that you have to sell products but kept giving false dreams of these pyramid schemes. Gave web site address as a2k.com.au
After the meet the guy came to me and asked if I had registered. I said no and asked him one question “what you selling is multilevel marketing like AMWAY (as at that point I did not know that this site was actually AMWAY Australia)”. He had a shocked expression and said “yes yes”. I Just looked at him and replied this business model is not for me and in a flash he darted in the other direction coz he knew that I will not be caught in his net.
The funny thing is I wanted to leave the seminar but actually waited for it to end and Q&A to start so that I could rip the speaker Niraj Shah which they had called from US (as they said).
But after he finished his speech he just said for questions please contact your representative. Nice way to get scot free.
Lesson in life Money does not come cheaply so stay away from people giving you wrong hope.
They never discussed what we will be selling but rather were focusing more on the money you will earn by linking others into it.
I had one of my friend selling Amway products in India and I remember we were the people who were actually using they most of the time as he could not sell then.
I am not against Amway I have used their product they are good, but I am against people who sell this company as a multilevel marketing of people and not their products.
Nick on October 31st, 2008
Sorry Rahul but I dont quite get where you are coming from with your blog. You KNEW about Amway and about their products having been exposed to it previously via a friend, yet you were surprised that you have to sell products or recruit people to sell products. Your last paragraph has really got me baffled. Multilevel marketing IS only ever about PEOPLE SELLING PRODUCTS. The idea is to sell products via a NETWORK OF PEOPLE and not via a traditional shop front. Why do people get so hung up on this concept? Amway (and most other network marketing businesses) are manufacturers and/or suppliers of goods and services, that sell these products and services via a network of independant distributors. If you were advising Amway, how would you advise they attract these independant distributors to sell their products? Painting a picture of the future, showing the potential earnings, and giving people some hope is used by just about EVERY business on the planet. How else would anyone ever buy anything whether it be a product a service or a business.
ronit on November 4th, 2008
great thoughts. Wow, amazing, beautiful.
there are several reason for not doing. but if u can find only 1 reason to do then it will change ur life style. you are right at ur place and amway distributors are right at their place. i am very happy with amway. i can see my future here.
Thanks a lot friends.
JonAlaNat on November 4th, 2008
Hi all.
I bumped into someone recently who mentioned that he was part of a network of people who, through sheer membership numbers, were able to get huge discounts on products and services from multinational companies for their members.
Being an open minded individual, i asked what other benefits there were and was advised that by joining the network, i, too, could make income through getting other people involved in the network.
Out came the pad and pen and schematic diagrams were drawn sahowing what was required to earn $50,000 a year after about 2 years invseted in the network. There would be greater rewards further down the track as i moved up the line and had people below me in the line recruiting others. Sounded quite OK I thought.
Went to a seminar out west of Sydney w2 weeks ago and was introduced to Dr P R. who had made it in Amway and was someone i should aspire to follow, i was told. Seemed like a nice gentleman and charismatic, to say the least. Was told that in this business you needed to “strive”, “endure”, “be relentless”, etc, etc, etc.
Went to the Network21 National Convention a few days ago and found it to be a very high charged event where all those people that had made it were in attendance. I have no doubt that there are people out there that have made a motza through Amway and affiliated organisations. Hey, even Adam Gilchrist was there on Friday night giving his backing to the Network21 organisation.
But what struck me about the said convention was the over-exhuberance of the attendees present. Being from a professional background, I was feeling a bit creeped out at how all the people were cheering, clapping, screaming and swooning over those people that were giving the revved up speeches on stage. Every time a new speaker was introduced, everybody in the crowd jumped to their feet and applauded wildly as if they were rock stars or something.
It very much reminded me of a cult gathering where people did not act normal. If you spoke to the attendees separately, you see that most of them seemed like your average Aussie more or less, but they all hold THE DREAM and are happy to go to all the seminars, conventions, meetings and other events as strongly suggested by those in power.
And the fact the throughout the whole 3 day convention, speakers incessantly told attendeees to hand in their registration of attendance for the March 2009 convention in Canberra (otherwise they were not serious about becoming rich and committed to the system) got on my nerves after a while. And you had to walk the walk across the front of the stage to deposit your registration form in the barrel so everyone could see the people that were committed to coming. And the CDs were plugged all the time and you were told to listen to all of them to understand the system and get the most out of it.
As i said, i am openminded but i have got to the stage where i think that you are being sold a pipe dream and rather then being a part time hobby, you would need to make this a full time job to get back the return promised.
I am getting hassled by the guy i know and he seems like a really nice guy too, but i will be telling him that this is not for me because i haven’t got the time at night and on weekends to try and sign up people.
I would rather spend this time, like i always do, with my young family and see them grow up.
There are easier ways to make more money on the internet and still enjoy a relatively good lifestyle.
Unfortunately, i won’t be able to buy a boat like Dreamer III in the video of the Founder Crown Ambassador, but he has been in it for 20 years+ and is entitled to his riches.
I wish it was all true so i could believe and live the dream. But the doubts in my mind are getting bigger and bigger.
ibofightback on November 5th, 2008
Luke – the fines etc you mentioned were something like 30 years ago – and the copyright violations was not Amway at fault, it was a group of Amway distributors
JonAlaNat – it’s not a full time job, but yes it does take a deal of work and committment over several years to build a decent income. But what worth doing doesn’t?
Michael – 4 to 8 hours a week to make $5000 is definitely a misrepresentation of the opportunity. I wrote a post a while back – http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/amway-is-not-a-scam-but-you-can-still-be-scammed. Amway is not a scam – but you can still be scammed.
There’s a lot of folk who work with Amway, some are professional, some or not. But please folks, don’t paint all with the same brush.
ibofb
thechaser on November 6th, 2008
a lot of people forget that when you have over 100,000 people in Australia as IBOs, you are bound to have some bad experience in the PEOPLE not the Amway opportunity.
Do you people realize that if you SELL 7500pv volume or set up 7500pv volume in customer you will make over $6000.
Does that take time… absolutely. One of our platinums (qualify 21%) does 6000pv personal customer volume. Took her 12 months to build a GREAT artistry business so yeah.. it can be done, honestly and with integrity.
You bag out the Amway business then you are slamming everyone in the AVON business, Nutrimetic business, Tupperware and any other direct selling business that are legite and heavily advertising on TV.
Take a look at the billaboard outside of Sydney airport. Would Adam Gilchrist put his Name to a Scam… come on people… give me a break. Do some real research in a Book store and not running around the web reading self published opinions.
Networking is a legite business and there are section in book stores that talks about the power of networking. Its not everone’s cup of tea but its about passing on or promoting products that people don’t know about and receiving a small commission over time… and THAT IS IT. We do it everyday yet no one seems to have a problem with it.
by the way, the lady that does 7500pv, thats per months. and she works about 15 – 17 hours a week …. yeah… and thats all she does.
How does that compare to your 40hr week plus travel time for 60K a year.
OH, I forgot, she also gets a free trip each year.
You put the effort in, there will be a reward.
By the way, do we have any doctors and lawyer that didn’t put some really long hours at uni studying to get to the pay bracket that you are at today???
Just like any business, effort equates to result. its about as fair as it comes.
gogetter on November 7th, 2008
Luke, u sound like u know so much, too much. To the point where u read it from a book. Do u even know what is involved in being an IBO?
Obviously not, u are the tipical type that has a whinge everytime u see something that u don’t have the ability to replicate, or is unable to achieve. Don’t sell yourself short mate, people like u don’t have dreams and even if u did you’d never be able to achieve them. Your dreams are so far away that you dont even see them when u actually dream.
Do you even know what its like to struggle financially, oh I forgot u drive a Subaru, how classy is that. Maybe you dont know what its like to make ends meet, and these people are out ther trying to earn an honest living and all people like you can do is rub dirt in their faces.
I read your profile, you went to University and that crap so u must have heard of professionals called LAWYERS and the LAW. Don’t you think if Amway was a scam then someone smarter than Mr Subaru, would have put a lid on it a long time ago. Obviously its totally legal, thats why its still here.
Also have you looked at yourself and everyone for that matter, everything in society is a Pyramid. Look at the Government, you have the Prime Minister and all his advisors, Treasurer and all those fancy names. And right at the bottom of the gigantic pyramid is us, the hard working Australians, who have to struggle through life while these government officials live off our tax. One thing is certain though, we can never be the Prime Minister no matter how hard we work.
I suggest you keep your little opinions to yourself, because clearly you haven’t even experienced it to qualify to have an opinion. Just because some approached you doesn’t give you the right. If a Holden salesman tries to sell u a Commodore, and u decline, do u go and devalue their cars, NO. So show some respect for your fellow Australians who want to earn a living.
If someone gave you the opportunity to earn some money to make life that little but easier, would you? You’d be stupid not to, but nothing comes free, so of course there is going to be a cost, but how much did you have to pay to go to University. Obviously you had a dream of becoming someone, thats why you paid for your education, and at what cost, now you pay HECS everytime you receive a pay cheque. So you worked hard and earned your education, only for someone to milk you of you efforts, if u ask me your the one whos in being scammed, but not by Amway, but by the system that you love so much.
Now add up the numbers, you pay for your education, how much? Lets say $22k, then u get a job and live a mediocre life back to forth from your job everday until you retire, because obviously on your “Pyramid” you’re never gonna be the boss. So you work for say 40 years then you retire, to what, live on a pension and earn $21K per year. Now tell me Mr Uni Degree is that worth all the time and effort u put into trying to make a living. I guess you’ve just been SCAMMED – and then its too late to change, oh too bad.
Luke on November 7th, 2008
Well, gogetter I think you’ve missed the whole of the point of the blog and the things I’ve said. If you look to the end of the third paragraph I specify that this is research I’ve done and information I’ve gathered from that research. You obviously didn’t read the whole blog if you’re claiming it sounds like I read it from a book (I clearly specified what happened to me and what is research).
I like your form of argument, first you pick on me for not having struggled financially, then you pick on me for what I do have. Which one is it? Are you just forming a way to make my counter argument look wrong? Good try.
I find it quite amusing how you claim that I don’t have dreams. Of course I have dreams. My going to university is part of my dreams and the job I want to get. I worked hard to get in and achieve these things. My car, which you pick on so much because it’s not ‘classy’ enough for you is part of my dreams. I worked hard for them and sacrificed a lot of other stuff to get them, but it’s what I wanted. For someone who’s 21, works 16 hours a week and studies, I think it’s a pretty good effort and I have every reason to be proud of it. The career I’m pursuing is a respected career and one I’m happy to invest money into a degree as I know I’ll get that money back because I career goals and I know I can achieve them through my study. When I get that job I’ll know when I sign the contracts what I’m getting, they won’t be operating in completely different ways behind my back.
The only way to get the job I want is with a university degree, I could try apply with experience in Amway but somehow I don’t think it will go down that well. If you read my blog CLEARLY, not just skim through it and then have a go at what you think it says, you’ll see I finish with,
“It is possible to make money selling Amway products, but it should not be expected to make the amounts that you are told you can”
I’m not against everything in Amway, I’m against the lies that they feed to people. I’ve allowed both for and against responses to this post because I’m happy with either sides of people’s opinions. I myself am interested to read what people have to say, and I want my readers to be able to as well. What I don ‘t think it acceptable is personal attacks which you have just done. I’m sure it made you feel good about yourself, but the other people who have posted in support of Amway make a lot more sense with opinions and facts then just picking on peoples cars and education.
ibofightback on November 7th, 2008
I’ve been battling against the myths and overgeneralizations about Amway on the internet for a long time now. Whether we like it or not, the reality is that in today’s world folk do their research with google. Thanks to some bad decisions by Amway a decade ago, and the very nature of the Amway Business (see The Internet War Against Amway – Part I and Part II) this will, not through any fault of their own, give people a rather bad view of how Amway operates and what it’s all about.
One thing that absolutely DOES NOT help is posts like yours, gogetter. I have multiple university degrees, so does most of my upline, which includes 2 Founders Crown Ambassadors with University degrees. Rubbishing the concept of education and attacking people who’ve been misinformed is not the way to “win friends and influence people”.
If we want folk like Luke to get a positive impression of Amway, then what we have to do is (1) be professional (2) start our own websites telling OUR stories, the good, the bad, and the ugly. In my experience both working with and researching the Amway business, the good outweighs the bad and the ugly by so far it’s ridiculous – but that’s not the story the internet tells folk.
So be proactive and do some marketing of your own business in the offline world and build a successful business, but also do some marketing of our BRAND on the online world, treating people with respect, telling out stories, and letting the truth be spread.
cheers,
IBOFB
Rahul on November 8th, 2008
Well I am back, with more research.
Well to everyone knowledge Quixtar are part of the same company.
Also for the budding IBO a piece of advise just do some you tube search and you will find that most of the platinum IBO people are not making money selling Amway products but by selling their motivational books.
check these you tube links
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=ot31XhgE_XE
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=qgnvMfDu47c
Why is it that when I was called in the Amway meeting the name Amway was never even mentioned.
As I said before you try this business of selling products but end up selling people, what I men is get more people under you in hope they will sell and you will earn . You in a nut shell become a leach who gives others false hope .
It has been statistically proved 99.9% of the IBO’s fail I repeat fail.
Never leave your Job for these businesses as you most probably will FAIL.
This is my advise rest I wish all the budding IBO best of luck!!!
———————————————————————————————-
Note for Luke – I am thinking of starting my own blog so please email me and we can get chatting on it.
ibofightback on November 8th, 2008
Rahul,
You have been misinformed. Platinums absolutely do not “make their money” from selling motivational materials. Like with anything else they may receive a volume discount on purchases of such materials, and as such if they resell those materials then they may make a small profit. This is basic capitalism. It is however pretty small amounts at the Platinum level, probably not even 10% of the average Amway income for that level (around $50000/yr, part-time). Some higher level pins (much, much bigger businesses than Platinums) do indeed make a decent income from the motivational side of things, particularly if they’re in demand on the speaking circuit. How lucrative it is depends on the training and support company they work with – it can range from barely covering expenses to quite a lot of money, and yes, even more than they make from Amway. You’d never guess from things like the video you link to, but this isn’t a secret, it’s been mentioned in the contract to join for many, many years and is published on numerous Amway corporate websites.
It would appear your “research” has been very limited. The “99.9% fail” myth is one promoted by anti-mlm zealots such as Dr Jon Taylor. It’s been comprehensively discredited by numerous people. It has bad assumptions, bad logic, and …. sadly for someone with a PhD in Statistics – bad statistics. Google “anti-mlm zealots” and “Len Clements” for a great series of articles on this. I also wrote a post about it just a few weeks ago: Amway Success – What are your odds?
Not mentioning Amway at a presentation of the Amway business plan is a violation of Amway’s rules – please contact Amway with the details and report it.
Finally, you say “never leave your Job for these businesses”. Funnily enough, that’s the recommendation of pretty much every successful Amway business owner I know too, at least when you start. This is one of the strengths of the network marketing model. There’s a low cost of entry, you can start part-time, and if you listen to advice you won’t quite your job until you’re earning at least twice as much from your networking business.
Rahul on November 9th, 2008
Well IBOfightback what products do Amway people sell ?
Why should someone buy such expensive products when people can get cheaper products of the same quality easily.
One example ALDI stores are doing so well and giving Coles & Safe way a tough time .
Why would some one buy an expensive Glister toothpaste from an IBO ?
ibofightback on November 9th, 2008
Amway’s primary products are Nutrilite and Artistry. The Nutrilite products have no real competitor, you certainly can’t find an equivalent at Coles or SafeWay. Artistry cosmetics and skin care products have been independently judged as being in the “prestige” category, along side brands like L’Oreal, Estee Lauder, and Chanel. In general you’ll find Artistry cheaper than those brands, often significantly so.
For other products, such as the home and personal care products, that’s where the IBO comes in. They’re not your “normal” product. Glister toothpaste for example has a patented formula shown to do less damage to teeth enamel than more common “abrasive” forms of toothpaste. What’s more, like many Amway products, it’s highly concentrated – you need to use less! Rather than put toothpaste along the toothbrush as normal, we recommend you put it sideways. Along with the fact the tube has been manufactured with a smaller hole than competitor brands, this means that while the initial tube may look expensive, the cost per use is generally much cheaper than competitors, with the added benefit of less packaging, which is better for the environment.
This is the kind of thing that’s hard to explain on a supermarket shelf, and it’s the job of Amway business owners to explain the benefits and savings to consumers. That’s effectively what we get paid for. The good thing from a business perspective is that once a consumer has tried the products themselves and seen the benefits themselves, they can’t buy them anywhere else, so they buy them from you (or via the website) again and again and again.
Rahul on November 9th, 2008
In the meeting I went they talked about selling cmputers even gave an Example of Dell and they have patnered with us now how does that work
thechaser on November 9th, 2008
one of the hardest things for people seeing the plan or product is to understand that Amway products are not to be compares to the ALDI or the no brand products. Thats like saying why is a Merc so much more expansive than Toyota.
Like IBOFb said, products are very concentrated. We have a 3kg of SA8 washing powder that was purchase almost 12 months ago. We have a family of 3 and wash at least once if not more a week. We currently still have about 1/3 of the box left. The scoop that comes in an ALDI washing powder is about 5 times bigger than one in SA8.
I knew a guy who use to work for a company that makes the Powder for SA8 (he was a VP for the company) and his exact words were that these products are highly concentrated and CLEAN (no chemical bi-products)
The problem is the approach of the IBO, there are some IBOs out there who is building the business with integrity that is to be desired. Many miss the point that networking is not about RECRUITING, you will never make any money if you RECRUIT. Products must be move either through the network either via a retail channel or personal consumption.
Direct selling or Network Marketing is a BUSINESS. People, get that through your head. You need customers/consumers just like any other business. The face that Adam Gilchrist, Ronaldino and many others are willing to put their name next to nutrilite or nutriway indicates that it a product you can trust. They are not your super market products, Nutriway is the only company that have their OWN certified Organic Farms. They are added benefits and cost to that.
Have any of the critics actually USED the product or have you just RESEARCHED on the internet. Wouldn’t it be great if we can research a cure for cancer on the internet too. The point is, ask the person that you are dealing with for a product, try it for 90 days, and if you don’t like it return it before the 90 days is up and have your FULL refund. Has anyone out there bought skin care products from Loreal, Estee, Chanel and did not like it and was abel to receive a FULL refund.
Many people are making a decision based on lack of information. Network Marketing is a business model that allows you to SHARE, and DISTRIBUTE products that are NOT available in normal channels via WORD of Mouth, and in return the more customer you refer the products to the higher your commission will be.
If you have a coffee shop that you invested 100K into and you have 10 regular customers a week, do you think you will keep that business??? What if they start to refer a few friends and all of the sudden you have 1000 customers based on referral. you will now be a profitable business. But in the meantime while you are building your clients your business is actually at a lost. Thats just business in simple terms. Here is the point, are the customer still not getting a product (coffee), and you as the owner of the business is PROFITING from the word of mouth referral that your first 10 customers, is that not like a pyramid shaped organization or the direct selling marketing plan??
How about if we throw a spanner in there, what if 5 of the first 10 customers saw how profitable you have become and goes and open a coffee shop near you. Do you think your business will still be as profitable now that you have 5 competitors??
Here is the thing, can I recommend all you self professed critics go to a book store or library and read some books on networking, relationship marketing, direct selling and many others.
AMWAY is just one of many direct selling companies out there. Some good, some bad. Within AMWAY there are some very good operators and some very shonky operators too, it does not mean AMWAY the company is bad.
I am so proud of AMWAY for establishing the brisbane business centre, it is just brilliant. its a shop front on the M1 where there are thousands of cars going pass seeing the name.
Another thing for the IBOs, please don’t resort to attacking the critics. It really doesn’t help. I would just encourage all to do their due research via a proper median and not just the internet. Speak to people in AMWAY, one of the Executive managers was exposed to Amway many years ago and thought that it was scam but until he started working in the company then he understood the misconception that people have about networking is not directly about the company it more to do with the conduct of the IBOs.
Good luck to the critics and all the IBOs, choose what you want in life and follow it. What ever that may be, I choose to listen to successful business owners (not in our business) and they have never bad mouthed the business model. Its mainly the employees and small business owners that have slight misconceptions. So do your research and good luck, I have ranted enough.
thechaser on November 9th, 2008
Rahul:
Dell have chose to use the AMWAY market plan as another way of getting their products out there. Look at it this way, if you have 4 million IBOs around the world that will use a site to purchase products. With that in mind Amway would probably negotiate a price with Dell that both companies and IBOs can have a mutual benefit for 1. distribute the product in to an existing client base 2. monetary benefits for IBOs eg better purchasing price or other benefits.
It sounds like some IBOs are twisting the facts a little bit which like my last post I stated that there are some good operators and some not as good.
In Oz, Optus is a partner. All that means is that Optus is gaining access to 200K customers that will most likely use Optus because its in the business and that AMWAY was able to negotiate added benefits for using optus via the AMWAY network. You are not going get rich selling Dell or Optus through the plan, and I hope NO one show the plan that way. Its just simply wrong.
A simple way of explaining it will be like affiliated marketing. People will pay to have their products exposed in a place where there is high traffic. Amway websites are know to have very high traffic flow in both America and around the world because of the existing IBO/customer base.
mr nofail on November 10th, 2008
good luck to luke!
i am going to register as amway distributor! i have read all the blog! great idea anyway!
Luke on November 10th, 2008
Please keep us updated with your experience! Always happy to hear from both sides 
gogetter on November 10th, 2008
Thanks, for your honesty Luke. I wasn’t trying to have a go at you or your education and my apologies if I have insulted you.
However, u must know what its like to struggle for your dreams and for you obtaining a good education is part of that. So like you thats all we’re trying to do to. I will say not all people are perfect, and there may be a few select IBO’s out there that may approach people the wrong way, but it doesn’t mean all IBO’s and Amway is like that.
I myself am an IBo, and I joined because I wanted to spend more time with my family. My wife and I have 3 small children and it pains us that someone else gets to watch them grow, when we have no choice but to work. If this is going to give me the opportunity to be free and spend precious time with my family then I’d do anything to make it work.
I read one of the comments above from Rahul, saying that 99.9% of IBO’s fail, and I’d really like to see where he’s getting his facts from, because the only reason in life that people fail is because of themselves, don’t blame the system or the product. Like if anyone fails a Uni exam, then its not the exam papers fault or the system, its the individual.
I myself was very sceptical about the business, however some young people dont realise how hard life is until you really experience it for yourself. Once you do experience hardship that you never thought you’d imagine, then you become open to other opportunities.
Next time someone approaches you for anything, not just Amway, look at it with an open approach, u may be surprised at what u see.
gogetter on November 10th, 2008
Rahul – get your facts right before you make comments please.
Don’t base your findings and use youtube as a reference. Honestly you wouldn’t study for an exam using youtube, or would you?
Like I commented to Luke, everything in ones life is determined by the individual. If someone has failed in Amway, that is totally the individuals doing, not the product, not the system and definately not Amway. If you owned a traditional business and you rarely opened, do you think you’d succeed?
Being an IBO means RUNNING your own business, and like all businesses big and small, if you don’t operate it, you don’t succeed.
The fact that Optus, Harvey Norman, Coke, Lexmark and other top range companies have associations with Amway should prove that it is not a scam. Of course these companies would have come to some agreement with Amway to be able to offer the things that they do, but doesn’t every company do that.
Also if Amway is a scam, answer this. Why is married couple Mat Rogers (played for Australian Rugby Union side and Gold Coast Titans) and TV presenter Chloe Maxwell both Amway IBO’s ??
If these already successful people have faith in Amway and are succeeding with the business, why can’t it work for your average joe?
Rahul on November 10th, 2008
Wooo I think some of my comments seem to have offended IBO.
Well to set few things right , I know about amway as few years back I has a friend who was sharing an apartment with us was an Amway IBO and no matter how much he tried it was we who in the end had to use the products.
So selling Amway products is not cheap few reasons here are first people don’t know about the products as there are no ads so people don’t have much confidence in using them. On top of it these products are more expensive than similar products in the marker.
I agree that Amway Product quality is good.
Last year I used the nutralite product don’t remember the name but it was powder patches for weight loss.
Well I did loose 12 KG in 3 months but this also included lot of gyming. But after 2 months I stopped purchasing it as it was simply too expensive for me. What’s the point of having great products when they are expensive and after some use people will move on .
thechaser on November 10th, 2008
Its also more expensive to drink real coffee then instant coffee yet people don’t have a problem drinking them. Its even more so if you buy flavored coffee.
Its all relative. I don’t find XS expensive, nor do I find the Artistry products expensive. so I don’t understand what people problems are???
If you buy Aldi and want to compare it to SA8 then it won’t work, they are different products.
People need to get the facts and not just listen to what others think, I have researched this business for over 12 months and is sadden by the experience that some people were treated by other IBOs, but it does not mean the system is a problem.
Like I said if you set up 7500pv worth of XS consumption then you are a platinum earning a good $4000 a month, not bad for part time work!!
ibofightback on November 10th, 2008
Rahul,
As I pointed out earlier, the products ARE NOT more expensive than the competitors. I would suggest you are not comparing Amway products with the products were trying to compete with. There are cheaper lipsticks than Artistry lipsticks, there’s also more expensive ones.. There are cheaper nutritional products than Nutriway, there’s also more expensive ones. There is cheaper cleaning products, and there are more expensive ones.
If they are too expensive for you, it doesn’t mean the products are too expensive, it just means you cannot afford them. Our target market is people who want high quality products at a great price, not cheap products at a cheap price. We don’t need everyone to buy our products to be a successful, profitable business.
Regarding people not “knowing” them, I started building my business in Australia, where Amway has been for 30 years. My mother used Amway products when I was a kid, still does. The fact there’ still people who don’t know the products in Australia is actually a sign there’s a LOT of potential market that still hasn’t been accessed. It’s there for someone to make money from.
By the way folks, Marketing guru Seth Godin has recently released a new book, Tribes. He’s put out the audio version for free. It’s about marketing in general, but it’s a brilliant book and it’s principles are directly applicable to the Amway business. If you want to know why the products aren’t the cheapest, he explains it. If you want to know why most people aren’t interested in building an Amway business, he explains it. If you want to know why most people who register with Amway don’t make money …. he explains it.
He also explains why, withouth even talking about network marketing, why with the right attitude and right leadership, network marketing is a brilliant business model for the 21st century. I strongly recommend listening to it or buying the book. Absolutely brilliant stuff!
Rahul on November 11th, 2008
OK you got my attention.
But how do you sell these products, do you have to go to door to door or put your website ebay types ?
ibofightback on November 11th, 2008
How do we sell them? Network Marketing!
Which is not door to door and not ebay! Indeed your not allowed to sell Amway products on ebay. You’re allowed to go door-to-door if you want, but I wouldn’t recommend it!
Listen to the Seth Godin book I linked to. Even though he doesn’t know it, he’s talking about us …. We build Tribes
gogetter on November 11th, 2008
Rahul you obviously don’t know what your talking about, just because you’ve used a product but stopped because you weren’t willing to pay for quality doesn’t mean that everything else is too expensive or not top quality. Network Marketing means creating a network of communities that do things the same way, in this case, shop online, not door to door. The prices may differ but you’d be saving more by buying online, u know why? There’s no IMPULSE shopping involved. U don’t buy things that you think you need and end up sitting on a shelf for months, its actually a good budgeting tool.
As for buying the products you only ever see them when you purchase them for your own personal use. Of course you can sell door to door if you want, but why waste time now when everything can be readily accessible on the internet, its the 21st century, new ways of doing things now.
People just need to get their heads around adjusting their shopping habits , from buying at the everyday Woolworths or Coles to buying online. Also wouldn’t that free up alot of time, the time it takes to drive there then shop, the load the bags into your car, then drive home then unload and pack. U shop online, maybe 30min, if your browsing, you order 2 minutes then 2 days later u unpack and shelve, easy concept that people copmplicate. Plus at the same time you get paid to do it, now you dont need to be a rocket scientist to work that one out.
As for products the Amway products mentioned above these are very good products, I am new to Amway and I can say I wouldn’t shop anywhere else now that I know that I’m buying quality. You can’t compare these prices to Aldi, because the products are very different. My family use to shop at Aldi too, but when u become a regular, you notice when the prices go up, and trust me they have. Not long before you have your typical Woolworths, with different products of course.
Rahul on November 11th, 2008
Go getter I dont know much about Amway that is why I am on this forum, so there is no reason to be mean to me.
But tell me one thing you earn money when other buy the products linked in your chain.
Why would some one not directly buy from Amway and keep all the discount to himself rather than going through the person above him.
I really dont know how this works so please through some light .
Or is it since I am say linked with you so when ever I shop you get a cut and some one above you gets a cut.
thechaser on November 11th, 2008
Well, some people become IBOs just so they receive products at wholesale (straight from Amway). Some people choose to be a customer because they like to do it that way. It will be no different to why would some people want to go to the corner store instead of buying bulk when clearly it cheaper per unit when you buy bulk. It really is habbit!!!
Rahul, I am glad you are at least listening to both side of the argument because its really sad that some people takes 1 min looking at the Amway plan and dismisses the whole concept without any information or facts. Most people form an opinion based on experiences of others. I am not ignoring the fact there has been many people that have had negative experiences because of individual leadership.
This has nothing to do with the company itself, Amway the company is far from perfect but it does have the longest trading record with any network marketing company and is always expanding.
And the whole thing about each individual getting a cut all you have to think about is when you buy a product that product has already gone through many many sets of hands and they ALL get a cut of that price one way or the other. No different here.
The difference is that your portion of the cut will be DIRECTLY effect by the effort you put in. You really need someone to explain it to you properly. You are paid on the differential of your business and your group. That is why there will be times where your downline makes more money than you.
ibofightback on November 11th, 2008
Rahul,
There are two ways to purchase Amway products. One is to be a client of a registered Amway business owner. In this case you effectivel purchase the products from that person. In some markets that can be done both offline and online. The Amway rep earns a retail markup on that sale, but they’re expected to spend some time actually marketing products to you, and if they are handling the order directly, also are responsible for issues like shipping, handling returns etc.
The other way is to register with Amway directly, however you can only do this if you are introduced (“sponsored”) by an existing Amway business owner. In most countries this has an associated fee. If you’re only interested in buying a few products, then this fee may not make it worthwhile registering, you’re better off being a client.
As a registered Amway business owner you become eligible for several other things. First is you get “wholesale” pricing, up to around 30% off the RRP. You are then also eligible for volume rebates. This works pretty much exactly the same way as any other business – buy larger volumes, you get bigger discounts. You can increase your volume either through sales to clients, or through increasing your wholesale volume through introducing and training other reps. In the old days those reps would buy from you and you’d be responsible for handling any volume rebates they might be eligible for. Today Amway handles most of the logistics for us, so it all happens “virtually”, but the end result is the same – people you “sponsor” buy the products off you at wholesale prices and you earn an income through the fact your overall volume means you get bigger volume discounts, so you’re reselling to them at a markup.
Now, there’s built in limits on the volume markup – the maximum rebate is 21% or 25% (depending on the country). At this point the “multi-level” aspect of the compensation plan finishes, after that various corporate profitsharing and leadership bonuses come in to play. When the FTC looked into Amway in the 1970s they found that in the majority of cases the number of levels of markup (the “chain”) was only around 4, not that much different to tradtional distribution.
So – in short, anyone can buy direct from Amway, and if they’re going to buy a sufficent amount of stuff to make it worth the membership fee (not hard), this is a smart thing to do. Folk who introduce them to Amway can still profit from this through the wholesale volume markups, though they lose out on the retail markup. The advantage of doing it is that the new member may elect to also introduce other people, increasing the overall volume, and thus potential profit.
ozamwayvictims on November 11th, 2008
Re: the chasers comment no. 64 – “a lot of people forget that when you have over 100,000 people in Australia as IBOs…”
Not true.
“In Australia and New Zealand, more than 80,000 Independant Business Owners enjoy the opportunity to earn additional income”……the source? Amway Australia’s very own website.
And it’s shown that figure since at least October 2007. So who in the hell really knows how many IBO’s there are here NOW, over one year later, and especially considering that back in June, a few “Diamonds” jumped ship and took alot of their downline with them over to Monavie?? Amway Australia knows what the current IBO numbers are, why don’t they disclose it?
In any case chaser, as if it ain’t obvious enough already, you were 20,000 IBO’s over to begin with. Take out the NZ IBO’s and you can clearly see that the 100,000 Australian IBO’s claim is a gross exaggeration.
thechaser on November 11th, 2008
ozamwayvictim
if out of all the writing that was presented that was the only thing you can find that was a gross exaggeration then I feel sad by the fact perhaps you have not read anything else on this blog but what you may choose to want to read.
I was talking about Australia and NZ market however who here can tell me the exact no.??? 100K was an estimate, I apologize for not been more exact with my no.
Does it really make a difference if its 70k or 60K, that was irrelevant to my entire point in no. 64? The no. that was indicated was simply to put into perspective that with large no. of people in a business that are not necessary trained business people you will bound to find some BAD eggs, and my guess is that you were at receiving end of one of them.
I am not here to dispute whether you have had bad experiences but just simply to point out that there are other who have positive experiences. eg. the young 20 year old just cross stage as a new platinum who qualified for maruitius and a 17K bonus check… yeah that real stuff.
Matt Rogers crossing stage as a platinum with another platnium in his group both receiving 17k bonus cheques. So somewhere along the line it is still working for some.
Networking is not for all, but it does work for some. I am not sure what, and who you were dealing with but its just unfortunate you feel so negative about the experience that you feel the need to tell everyone.
Maybe someone should start a blog about how many hundreds of thousands of dollars that people have lost in dodgy investment companies??? Promising over 10% growth yet not delivering?? Or maybe a blog about how many small business owners are closing down now because of the credit crunch. Tell the world how bad it is to own a small business??? Ridiculous isn’t it.
ibofightback on November 12th, 2008
To put it in perspective – I believe “ozamwayvictims” has had NO personal experience, let alone a “bad” experience. If I recall correctly they have a relative involved and don’t like it – primarily I suspect because they simply believed everything they read on the ‘net.
With regards the little more than minor issue of the number of IBOs, Amway is notoriously bad at updating their websites with things like this. It’s also worth noting that when Amway does report it publicly it’s almost always number of *renewed* IBOs the previous or earlier year, so it’s only folk on at least their second year of membership. Why don’t they publish the exact up to date numbers? Well … why should that? Like any business they go through ups and downs, and I can guarantee you that for folk like “ozamwayvictims”, the “ups” would never be enough, and the “downs” would be subjects of rejoicing. So who would they be publishing it for? To give ozamwayvicim something to talk about? What’s the “upside”? Somebody else’s Amway business imploding for whatever reason, for example a raid by a competitor MLM, has little, heck no influence on my Amway business. What’s important is *my* numbers and whether the model, and growth, is possible at all.
With a new Founders Crown Ambassador, new Double Diamond and new Diamond being recognized in this month’s Australian Amagram, clearly it is indeed possible, and working and growing for a substantial number of people, with each of those qualifiers, by definition, having to have helped numerous other folk develop substantial Amway businesses.
emmely on November 12th, 2008
Yes it is scam.
I have recently attended the amway meeting and I can tell you I just wanted to leave the building as soon as I discovered what it was all about.
The person who invited me informed me that it was all about business network meeting. But as soon as I arrived at the place to be I was concerned. The business meeting was in held in a christen church far from Central Business District.
Off course the people I spoke with, just before the conference, were not at all interested in my business and didn’t tell anything about what they were doing. I started to be very suspicious.
When the conference started at the beginning it sounded not bad, creating passive money, franchising, networking, product broker. So I thought yes I can do that with my own company. Good advice.
But later on, some of the audience people came on stage telling me that they are having a successful business and that they were happy families, I started to be even more suspicious. I was like why are they not telling me about what business they run and how they succeeded.
I think more than 20 people came on stage with the similar stories; “I am Kate and I have 2 children and I started this successful business two years ago and I will soon retire”. Slightly annoyed I started to observe the people on stage and thought if they were so successful why are they dressed in “target” look alike clothes?
Wake-up people, it sounds too good to be truth! Getting rich by just selling expensive stuff and getting more friends involved? If you can manage this and get rich by doing this then I am sure you missed your opportunity. You should have started your own company. Then at least you would not have any pressure, having stupid meetings, loosing and annoying your friends and so ever.
I am sure you can make small money with the amway concept but you will have to work hard for it! Becoming a millionaire? Dream on, you will have more chance to be become a millionaire by spending your money on lottery tickets instead of spending it on Amway!!
And if you are one of the millionaires from amway, I would love to meet you!
ibofightback on November 12th, 2008
emmely, it definitely sounds like you were deceived and treated unprofessionally, however it’s somewhat flawed thinking to assume that because those folk didn’t do the right thing that somehow it means the business model itself is a scam.
You say -
Getting rich by just selling expensive stuff and getting more friends involved?
Actually, most of your friends won’t get involved, in the beginning. They’ll wait and see what you do! One can however translate your comment to -
Getting rich by selling millions of dollars or quality products and expanding your business?
It’s exactly like other businesses emmely.
If you can manage this and get rich by doing this then I am sure you missed your opportunity. You should have started your own company. Then at least you would not have any pressure, having stupid meetings, loosing and annoying your friends and so ever.
If you lose and annoy your friends, then I think there’s a fair chance you won’t be successful with Amway. I’ve never lost a friend, and made many. Most of my friends aren’t in Amway, and only a handful buy products off us. As it happens I’ve started many companies, I’m in the processing of selling one and starting another now. Amway has some disadvantages over “going it alone”, but the advantages are enormous. Anyone who thinks you have no pressure or “stupid meetings” in the traditional business world has never been in business
There are hundreds of thousand of people around the world who have made full-time incomes and more with a part-time Amway business, including many millionaires.
It’s not a theory, emmely. Whether it “works” or not is not up for debate. It’s a reality and has been a reality for 50 years.
thechaser on November 12th, 2008
Emmely
How do you classify Millionaires?? You know that we have pensioners classified as a millionaire because their home and cars are worth over 1 million dollars but couldn’t buy you a coffee because it outside their budget.
There are plenty of people making good income out of it. A young man 21 have qualified as a platinum and he will be making about $3000 a months. Not much but do you realize that if he has structured the properly it will be the same for the next month and the month after that. And that my friend, you have just build yourself and asset that is close to about 1 million worth.
I guess you know people who wears make ups that are very expensive. Is that company a scam too, eg loreal, Estee, Chanel list goes on… Do you not think the person who started Chanel is laughing on a beach somewhere.
Maybe you can tell me a person who did not work hard and became a millionaire??? Networking is a marketing strategy that allows people to be given the opportunity to make it in a business that does not discriminate.
Have you considered how much it cost to start a company and how much time you need to spend in it to make it work and become profitable? I can assure you that it will be costly and there is never any guarantee that it will succeed. No different in Networking.
The point is even if I did introduce you to a millionaire you would still think its a scam because you don’t sound like you are even looking for answers.
If you are for real, why don’t we throw a challenge to you and actually introduce to one. I have a double diamond that lives not far from me and we play a bit of golf together. (by the way, a double diamond will make more in a month than what most of your average income earners, and that is all AMWAY money not some tool scam.
So please, don’t make a criticism on my business when you don’t have all the facts and you have been to ONE meeting and searched the NET for all the answers.
I bet you you can find a negative article about anything, even mother teresa!!
Rahul on November 12th, 2008
Well looks like the topic just got hotter with emmely comments.
But I share a portion of her anger as now you have at least 3 live examples in this blog saying they were called in pretext of something else and when we went there it turned out MLM.
In my case too they were just talking about business but not telling us what is this business.
Why don’t they tell us!!!
I was told it that there will be some it opportunity involving virtual servers that’s how they got me in that meeting.
Both to thechase & ibofightback I am not doubting that you are part of the Bad eggs but I definitely believe that there are more bad eggs than better ones
In these meeting Amway name is not even discussed just the term business WHY???
Coz they know if they even say the name Amway or Quixstar people will be running out in the opp direction.
Also in my case we had to register as IBO’s at the end of the meeting
Now please tell me what biz ethics are these to tell people to register and spend their hard earned money and they don’t even know that they are registering for Amway.
thechaser on November 12th, 2008
rahul
what part of melbourne is this?? it sounds like they are running the QI format like the winter group, but the winters have never taught not to mention the name amway.
the QI is to check your interest, the networking is MLM so thats not lying however I have got no idea what this virtual server is about???
Rahul on November 12th, 2008
Well he met me in a mall asked me what I was doing and advised they will be in some It business where companies will get hosting on servers (tosave cost) like that stuff, but in reality it was none of this as it was a way for me to come to that meeting
thechaser on November 12th, 2008
one of the reasons that people don’t tell you everything in 10 mins is also to protect someone from questions that can’t be answered because they have not been around the business long enough. Remember, the key to any networking business is to be able to duplicate your efforts over time.
use a the workshop as a place to answer questions and clarify the for basics 1. residual income, 2. distribution channels, traditional vs networking 3. some of the companies we have 4. how to make the money
its not about curiosity, I use XS as a opener. I introduce them to the drink and either set them up as a customer or tell them about the plan if I see they may be looking.
The point at the end of the meeting is because the material presented is IBO related. If you are not an IBO you won’t actually understand what that is about. This is not to say you must register to get in. Its simply the situation that it doesn’t apply to a new person not to entice you to get in.
thechaser on November 12th, 2008
I have got absolutely no idea where he got that idea from??? Did he at least give you an overview with a brochure and see if you are interested in getting more information?
you see unless you are interested in finding out at least some of the four things I have listed in post 98 then there is no point even going to the workshop because you are not looking.
The whole networking thing is a way of making some extra money without a lot of extra capital.
We have products on display, and have people using and trying products at meeting so that they can see it real
a worthwhile cd or book to look at is Household Gold, there is a clip on you tube you can have a look at and it makes sense. the other will be ‘the next trillion’ by paul zane pilzer
i really do wish people would stop building this business by lying to people to get them to a meeting.
its either 1. are you open to look at other ways of making money (as this is just one of many 2. if you do catch up for an overview 3. if you like the overview then come to a workshop to see more anwers
Rahul on November 12th, 2008
But alsa what u say in point 98 & 99 is not happening at alot of places hence so many backlash forums have sprung up
ozamwayvictims on November 12th, 2008
“if out of all the writing that was presented that was the only thing you can find that was a gross exaggeration then I feel sad by the fact perhaps you have not read anything else on this blog but what you may choose to want to read.
I was talking about Australia and NZ market however who here can tell me the exact no.??? 100K was an estimate, I apologize for not been more exact with my no.”
Nope, you specifically stated Australia only and there is use of the word “estimate” in there either. People who come across these comments could have easily taken your estimate as fact, so we just wanted to clear that issue up.
“Does it really make a difference if its 70k or 60K, that was irrelevant to my entire point in no. 64? The no. that was indicated was simply to put into perspective that with large no. of people in a business that are not necessary trained business people you will bound to find some BAD eggs, and my guess is that you were at receiving end of one of them.”
The 60 or 70k IBO’s is relevant, as this shows that the number of IBO’s has been declining for some years…we’ve heard many a time, in fact we were told this ourselves when we were prospected that this was a “new business”, that it was “exploding” yada yada. Truth is, this business is not new, and yet IBO’s whilst saying it’s “new” will often defend/promote it using the “it’s been around for 50 years”….contradictory much?
Of course there will be bad eggs in any organisation, the thing with Amway though, the bad eggs are at the top of the pyramid and so the half-truths and deceptive practices are being taught and passed down with each downline right through to the newbie IBO. It is the job of the upline to teach the newbie the way of the business right? Logic says that your few bad eggs at the top rapidly breed more and more layers of bad eggs below them.
No, we weren’t personally on the receiving end, we were never in Amway. Our relo’s though have been brought into Amway by a bad egg upline, and tried to recruit us with the deceptive tactics that they were taught to use.
I am not here to dispute whether you have had bad experiences but just simply to point out that there are other who have positive experiences. eg. the young 20 year old just cross stage as a new platinum who qualified for maruitius and a 17K bonus check… yeah that real stuff.
Matt Rogers crossing stage as a platinum with another platnium in his group both receiving 17k bonus cheques. So somewhere along the line it is still working for some.”
Yup, we heard about the 21yo, apparently “he is retired” now. Good for him and anyone else who succeeds at this thing. We have never said it dows not work period, it does work, for a very minute minority, which takes us back to the numbers thing.
Amway has been here for 37 years. Avearge number of IBO’s per year? we’ll use a very conservative number of say 30,000 people who have joined per year which equals a tad over 1.1 million IBO’s have gone through the Amway gates in Australia since it’s inception. Let’s now assume that only 1% of these IBO’s absolutely gave it their all and worked the “business” so they could go platinum, emerald or diamond. It would mean that over 11,000 Platinums and above should have been produced in that timeframe. Perhaps there has been, but what people need to think about is how many currently qualifying Platinums and above are there right now?? Not 11,000 that’s for damn sure.
“Networking is not for all, but it does work for some. I am not sure what, and who you were dealing with but its just unfortunate you feel so negative about the experience that you feel the need to tell everyone.”
It is very unfortunate we are indeed so negative, we wouldn’t have given a rats clacker about the Amway world had our relo’s not cut us (any other family and friends) off from their lives because we didn’t buy the Amway dream of riches they were trying to sell. It has been a long and emotionally painful journey. Be buggered if we were gonna sit back quietly and let this happen to someone else. So we told our story. And it’s just that, our story, our experience, our truth. Other people can make of it of what they want.
“Maybe someone should start a blog about how many hundreds of thousands of dollars that people have lost in dodgy investment companies??? Promising over 10% growth yet not delivering?? Or maybe a blog about how many small business owners are closing down now because of the credit crunch. Tell the world how bad it is to own a small business??? Ridiculous isn’t it.”
Umm, look a bit deeper around the net mate, there are thousands and thousands of sites/blogs that are negative on just about anything and everything in the world, so what’s your point? People shouldn’t post anything negative about anything on the net? lol. Now that is ridiculous.
ozamwayvictims on November 12th, 2008
Oops, missed some opening and closing quotation marks. Must go and learn the hotmail codes for italics and such!
Rahul on November 12th, 2008
Ok A straight que how many plat or Diamond are there in Aus as of now and are all of them not working meaning only surviving on Amway
gogetter on November 13th, 2008
thechaser & ibofightback, its obvious that these other tools will never achieve anything in their lives, my advice to you guys, go and build you business and prove these sceptics wrong.
Let them be with their idiodic opinions, they’ll just return to their mediocre life, back and forth to and from work little cattle to a milking station. These guys mention pyramid so much, they don’t even understand that what they do now in life is a pyramid.
Look no matter how hard they work in their jobs, they’ll always be the little guy at the end of the profit line, while the boss reaps the rewards. There will always be someone controlling, what they do, how much they can earn, what their worth, when they can pee and when they can take a holiday. These people are restricted by a thing called J.O.B
Fortunately for us we now have the option of working towards a different lifestyle where we will have the time to enjoy the money and the money to enjoy the time. U guys both know there are no limits.
If any of you guys are in Brissy, you’ll know that it is the faster growing team. Also if you were at FEC you’ll realise how real it is. Just on the weekend I saw people go Emerald and a young 21 year old retire from work after 18 months quoting “i’ve only worked for 18 months, which is already too long”. His very brother who received an OP1 (highest honour in year 12 grading in QLD) just turned 18 and he is on his way to the same success as his older brother.
For the tools who only have negative comments, if you’re gonna ask or talk to someone about something, try to go to a source where they have succeeded so you can ask your dumb questions like, does it work, is it a scam, how long did it take. If you go and ask some fool who was in the business for a month and quitted because money didn’t fall from the heavens, then all your gonna get is exactly what you’s are sayin now.
Oh yeah I think I hear your cattle stations callin, back to the milkin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Rahul on November 13th, 2008
Hmm Gogetter that was a really sad piece of effort you had OK a simple question to all 3 of you please honestly tell me you montly average AMWAY earnings (consider you can take the average earnings in the last quarter)
ibofightback on November 13th, 2008
gogetter – I don’t know what is taught in your group, but publicly calling people “tools” does nothing but harm our image. It may make you feel better, but in the long term it’s damaging your business.
Rahul – we have a reasonably comprehensive list of anyone who has ever qualified Diamond or above on the Amway Wiki – Australia article. Note that doesn’t mean they’re still qualifying at that level, or even still in Amway (some are not). Number of platinums is harder to determine. It’s not really an easy thing to answer since, like any business, things are fluid. You can be platinum one year, then not the next, then are again the next year.
As to your question I’m not currently building an Amway business, for reasons that have nothing to do with Amway (very, very VERY long story). When I was last fully active (1999), with active defined as the minimum amount of work we suggest to be successful, I was netting $2000-$3000/mth for 10-15hrs/wk work. But … it doesn’t stop there.
Why? Well, what’s most fascinating to me, particularly as a businessman, is that that business, which I handed over to my former wife nearly a decade ago, has had no input in terms of folk “showing the plan” or going to seminars or buying “tools” or new people joining or anything – yet it has been generating sales volume and income (for my former wife) every single month for that nearly 10 years. So how much was I making when I was “working the business”? I can’t answer that, it’s still making money today. People like the products and keep buying them. It works.
ozamwayvictims – there is no evidence at all to suggest “the bad eggs” outnumber the good, indeed to the contrary. In Australia alone we agree there’s at least 70,000 renewed IBOs, perhaps twice as many in any given year, and as you say probably over a million folk who’ve had some involvement at some time. Yet the number of “complaints” are tiny. You yourself started a blog and encouraged people to write to you with their “horror stories”, but you ended up having to troll the net and dig up and republish decade old tales from other websites! Clearly today it is much easier for folk to get online and complain about things than ever before, yet there’s an order of magnitude more complaints from folk from 10 or 20 years ago than there is today, and even then – not that many complaints when taken in perspective.
I’d suggest that perhaps the problem with your relatives isn’t just from the “Amway side”. Perhaps your reaction had something to do with it? Pursuing any long term goal of significance is not easy to do. If your serious about it, you’d have to be a bit dumb to persist in hanging about with folk who are actively criticising you for it. Did you simply tell them it wasn’t for you and you weren’t interested? Or did you rubbish them, criticise them, and generally be a pain in the a** about it?
Put it this way – you’re actively running a website where you are going out of your way to try and damage Amway’s reputation. You are actively trying to *stop* your relatives be successful in Amway, something they’ve chosen to do. If you opened a corner store and your relatives went around telling people not to shop there and it was a scam, how would you react? If you’d set a goal to compete at the Olympics, and your relatives went around saying you were an idiot and you’d never make it – how would you react?
That’s effectively what your doing, and then your complaining the relationship has been damaged? Please. A little self-insight.
Rahul on November 13th, 2008
ibofightback now for one I can say u definately have earned my respect & have cleared few of my doubts.
I think I will sum up this blog now once and for all
AMWAY has good products so if you like them then combined efforts will help you and others who like AMWAY products to save money. As the chain will progress the discounts will go up and so will your earnings from AMWAY.
For a starter dont become an IBO simply use their products if you like them then it is but natural that others in your circle of influence might also shift to using these products and the chain will increase. I agree on one part if you like the product chances are that you will stick to it.
So for a new person use them and after a decent amount of time plung into this buz but I still recommend dont leave your job or your own biz make AMWAY as a second back up plan
ibofightback on November 13th, 2008
Yup, the success of the business rests on having quality products with legitimate demand. Unfortunately these days there’s too many “wannabe Amways” that don’t have legitimate products, and drive demand primarily through recruiting folk and promoting they can get rich. They call themselves MLM and “just like Amway” but simply end up making folk think we do the same. Having said that, folk can overdo that approach with Amway as well. As I said earlier, Amway’s not a scam, but you can still be scammed.
While one of the first things recommended to everyone who is starting an Amway business is to ensure they try the products themselves and learn of their value, it’s not absolutely necessary to undertake extensive research first before looking at talking to others. Why? Well, for a start, just like any other business you might be considering starting, it can be a good idea to get started with some good friends or family and do the research and learning phase together. There’s no risk – with Amway you’ve got 3 months to give it a try and if you figure it’s not for you, you can get all your money back. Secondly, there’s plenty of independent testimony out there about the quality of the products, and the numbers alone (>US$3billion in sales a year of just Nutriway alone) tell you there’s a market.
Having said that, it’s crucial that you do become comfortable and knowledgeable about the products and understand their target markets. I think a few years ago when the idea of an “internet business” became so popular, the business opportunity was targetted too heavily towards young, internet savvy folk when the products themselves weren’t targetted to that group. Unless that’s explained up front to a new IBO they’re going to end up buying more expensive (albeit better) products than they usually do and putting themselves under increasing financial stress while at the same time going through the normal stresses (financial and otherwise) of starting a new business. A predictable recipe for trouble, in my opinion!
But Rahul is absolutely right – don’t quit your job to start an Amway business. It’s designed to be part-time and takes time to learn how to do properly. If you jump in too fast without understanding what to do, you’re almost certainly destined for disappointment. Satisfy yourself about the quality of the products, share them and the concept with friends, learn the process, and, like any business, be willing to consistently learn and work for several years.
cheers,
/ibofb
ibofightback on November 13th, 2008
ps Rahul – kudos to you for being open minded and willing to learn and research. Too often on the internet I encounter folk who have decided something and will defend it to the death, facts, figures, and other opinions be damned. Building an Amway business isn’t for everyone, but it would be a shame to dismiss it for the wrong reasons.
thechaser on November 13th, 2008
Rahul:
ditto from me too re your attitude to actually be open to discuss the business concept and understanding not all us AMWAY people are as they described
Joe Klein on November 14th, 2008
I was once invited to a meeting. I was told it was a job opportunity and when I arrive, I was dismayed to find out it was an Amway meeting. The person who invited me asked mt to have an open mind so I observed the presentation. The speaker said they are not Amway, but recruiting for network twenty one agents. He said Amway is a private seperate company and they supply network twenty one agents with goods. After the meeting, I had decided that it was not a good fit for what I was seeking and I politely declined to join. I was dismayed when I overheard some gyus in suits saying that people who don’t join “don’t get it” and will wind up being broke.
Tex on November 14th, 2008
Don’t let ibofb, gogetter, and the chaser fool you, most groups run a tool scam.
Click on my name for the tool scam facts.
thechaser on November 14th, 2008
Joe:
I am not sure why they would explain is like that because you are going to an AMWAY meeting, NET21, IDA and what ever support group you are in are a complete seperate entity. You can run you AMWAY business on its own as a direct selling opportunity. I choose to participate in the books and tools because I enjoy readying.
Joe, what you might not get is the logic behind networking but by choosing not to participate does not make you broke; I would apologize for those who would make those comments.
TEX, i understand there is a tool scam, but I am building this business with integrity and Tools are optional. I lend them the books or sell them what I enjoy at prices that are below what they can get a AMAZON; and its not compulsory so please don’t lump all of us in boat of scammer. I am fully aware of the issues that are out there
Tex on November 14th, 2008
Joe,
In the UK, a sign with the Amway name is now required to be clearly posted. Hiding the Amway name is one of the many reasons Orrin and Co. got booted, for misrepresenting the opportunity. In fact, Amway did polls, and found many TEAM IBO’s didn’t even realize they were in Amway (Quixtar, at that time). This occurred even AFTER Orrin was supposed to train his folks about this issue. Again, the chaser is trying to mislead you.
the chaser, do you also apologize for Jim Dornan calling prospects losers in a function promotional video, posted on ibofb’s site recently? I don’t apologize for Jimbo, I just call him the title he has earned through his own actions, LYING COWARDLY “KINGPIN.”
Save me the BS about integrity and tools being optional. That’s a smoke screen, and I know it. When I went off standing order about 3 years ago, I went from “best buddy” to being totally ignored overnight. I can be your prices by several factors on eBay, so don’t try that BS with me. I know better. If you support known scammers, then you’re a scammer as well.
Tex on November 14th, 2008
Correction, the sentence in the last paragraph above should state, “I can beat your prices by ….”
Click on my name for the tool scam facts.
thechaser on November 14th, 2008
Tex, thats just too bad of the kind of your experience you have had, but you have no right and no knowledge of how I run my business because you don’t know me from a bar of soap.
I have never lied about the name or not disclosed the tool money, so ease off on your critism
Tex on November 14th, 2008
thechaser,
If it was only me, it would only be “too bad”, but I have a lot of company.
I don’t need or want your sympathy.
I have every right to criticize any LCK I care to, because they can simply step forward and set me straight if I’m wrong.
As far as I’m concerned, you work with LCK’s and are the same slime they are until you or they prove me wrong.
I’ve been blogging about the LCK’s for years, and not a single one of them has the guts or backbone to raise their slimy butts out of their tool scam cash.
Take a hike, thechaser, go brown-nose your upline LCK, because you’re not going to get anywhere with me.
Click my name for the tool scam facts, including the relatively minor issues the LCK’s are willing to sue over, but are lying cowards when it comes to the tool scam. QED
thechaser on November 14th, 2008
tex
i don’t think i am trying to get anywhere with you?? I don’t give or need to give you sympathy.
and I guess all your companies get together on a regular basis to catch on your most recent experience with the so called LCK.
and don’t need get all agro on a blog, this space is free for comments from all sides.
this tool scam thing doesn’t just happen in Amway, have you checked the most recent activities in other direct selling companies like MV?? USANA or any other companies that may have ‘tools’??
you are entitled to your opinions and i to mine and just because we are different does not make either of us right or wrong. I am prepared to acknowledge the fact that there are incidences of tool scam yet you are not prepared to accept the fact there are some organizations that would build the business properly. Thats a bit one sided is it not? its an open forum so at least be open
ibofightback on November 14th, 2008
Joe Klein – it’s against Amway’s rules to invite someone to a meeting by implying it’s a job opportunity. What astounds me is that the folk who invite people in a dishonest manner are surprised that folk don’t want to go into business with someone who has already proved themselves untrustworthy!
Everyone can safely ignore Tex, he’s an obsessive compulsive whose group left him and whose upline refuses to help him and has been banned from multiple sites (run by both Amway critics and Amway supporters) for his utter inability to abide by normal rules of social or internet etiquette.
And his response to this will be quite predictable ….
thechaser on November 14th, 2008
IBOFB, that is just classic… I read some of his stuff… a real waste of time. Its a real one sided conversation.
Tex on November 14th, 2008
thechaser,
So, just because Amway isn’t the only company with a tool scam makes it right? Have you noticed the tool scam has been reduced to zero in the UK, and reduced significantly in other countries, such as India and Russia?
I agree you’re entitled to your opinion, but keep in mind my opinions are based on facts. That is what makes you wrong and me right. I’m open to looking at different facts, but I haven’t seen any, just opposing opinion based on NOTHING.
Although offering someone a job is wrong, I doubt the prospects read the rules prior to seeing the plan.
You and ibofb dismiss the information on my site, but you don’t have any basis for discounting the first hand accounts on my site.
ibofb,
You can’t safely or unsafely ignore me, you can only bury your head in the sand, because every single position I have is based on facts, and the trends over the past couple of years are going in my direction. Not as fast as I prefer, but moving nonetheless. I’ve been “banned” because these sites can’t face the facts. That’s not my problem. Too bad none of them, including you, understand the nature of the internet is nobody can really be “banned”, as this and other sites proves.
Click my name for the tool scam facts
ibofightback on November 15th, 2008
as I was saying …..
Rahul on November 15th, 2008
Hmm well lets keep the discussion health and not get to virtual fist fight
Tex on November 15th, 2008
Rahul,
You have been fed half-truths, which in reality are full lies.
For example, ibofb correctly states most Platinums don’t make much tool scam profit, but this changes drastically at the Emerald and above levels.
Keep in mind most IBO’s don’t make a net profit, especially if they follow their upline’s directions, until they reach about the Platinum level, which means you have to create several dozen new IBO’s losing money to break even. Does this sound like a good business model to you? Me neither.
I have had blog discussions with ibofb for years, and he will spin and twist the truth to meet his egotistical needs. I met him in Prague, Czech Republic earlier this year at an Amway event we were both invited to, and meeting him in person confirmed everything I learned by blogging with him. ibofb is TOTALLY dishonest, unethical, and immoral.
Have you clicked on my name to learn the tool scam facts?
Also, where do you live? Because if it’s in the U.S., we can have a conference call to discuss this further in more detail.
Rahul on November 15th, 2008
Thanks Tex but my current co-ordinates are in OZ melbourne and not is US , Well you too have picked up some vaild points . But I also now being open minded would like to hear both the isdes as I also believe not all IBO’s are crooks had they been then so many of them would not have gone bust.
Ya I do agree that there are bed eggs there which have actually spoilt the name of the game
Tex on November 15th, 2008
I don’t mind you looking at all perspectives. In fact, I encourage you do just that. But keep in mind there are facts, and there are opinions. Opinions based on facts are much more reliable than opinions based on lies. Get the facts.
Also, most IBO’s are not crooks, but most Platinums and above are crooks. This is a very small percentage of total IBO’s, but this does not mean there isn’t a scam, just that a small percentage of IBO’s profit from the scam. What are the costs of your tools? This is a great indication whether you are involved in a tool scam or not.
thechaser on November 15th, 2008
Tex,
you are also dismissing MY first hand account with the business which is unlike the experiences thats on your site.
I am also aware of zero tools in UK; and I don’t think just because there are other companies out there with tools scams makes it right however you make it very obvious that you are attacking Quixtar/Amway and no one else. In fact you are attacking every IBO that comes under that banner yet not under other companies.
Your blog is based on fact on your experiences and others. My experience is based on FACT because I have experienced it and is nothing like what you have described.
How does someone spend 20K on Tool in a year? It about $20 to $60 per month varying from Books only or Cds as well. Plus your business functions each month is only an extra $200 and then your major functions. It does not add up to $20 or $30 thousand dollars.
I buy the products that I like and use and recommend the products to others. I enjoy reading anyway so books is not an issue so are you saying that I have being scammed because I LIKE reading the books that I receive??
Every post you have made you have made with animosity yet no one else here is trying to dispute your experience or experience of other.
I don’t personally invite people to meetings using a job opportunity because I know its misleading. They are invited on the bases of seeing an alternate way of income opportunity. Amway is also dicussed in the meeting and products are shown.
Tools money is also explained at sign up and explained as been an option. They can choose to be on just books or just CDs or both. So I don’t know what your problem is? I have people in my books that have never bought a book or cd yet I am still associating with them outside of business functions because of the friendship we have formed, but I guess you would interperate that as me been a con artist and manipulating the person into buying the products.
You have made more personal attacks on this blog then any other and are willing to tell those who don’t agree to take a hike so I don’t think you are really here to DISCUSS but to ATTACK people. That comment would probably fuel your anger but hey thats how I am reading it. We can agree or disagree, who cares.
Tex on November 15th, 2008
you are also dismissing MY first hand account with the business which is unlike the experiences thats on your site. —- I’m not dismissing your account/experience, but I do question your ability to understand it. How much do your tools cost?
I am also aware of zero tools in UK; and I don’t think just because there are other companies out there with tools scams makes it right however you make it very obvious that you are attacking Quixtar/Amway and no one else. —- Not zero tools in the UK, zero tools PROFITS. I am attacking A/Q because that’s big enough of an issue to tackle, I know more about the A/Q tool scam, and have been personally ripped off by it.
In fact you are attacking every IBO that comes under that banner yet not under other companies. —- Not every IBO, every LCK.
Your blog is based on fact on your experiences and others. My experience is based on FACT because I have experienced it and is nothing like what you have described. —- My blog is based on my experiences and other FACTS. Again, tell us about your tool prices.
How does someone spend 20K on Tool in a year? It about $20 to $60 per month varying from Books only or Cds as well. —- I don’t know, where did you get the 20K/year idea?
Plus your business functions each month is only an extra $200 and then your major functions. It does not add up to $20 or $30 thousand dollars. —- I never said it did, what’s your source?
I buy the products that I like and use and recommend the products to others. I enjoy reading anyway so books is not an issue so are you saying that I have being scammed because I LIKE reading the books that I receive?? —- No, I am saying you and many other IBO’s have been scammed because YOU think the money is in Amway, but it’s really in the tools.
Every post you have made you have made with animosity yet no one else here is trying to dispute your experience or experience of other. —- What is wrong with having animosity towards liars and cowards? They CAN’T dispute my experience or the experience of others, because they have no FACTS to back up a different position.
I don’t personally invite people to meetings using a job opportunity because I know its misleading. —- Neither do I, what’s your point?
They are invited on the bases of seeing an alternate way of income opportunity. Amway is also dicussed in the meeting and products are shown. —- Point?
Tools money is also explained at sign up and explained as been an option. —- How is tools money explained?
They can choose to be on just books or just CDs or both. So I don’t know what your problem is? —- See above, it’s called bait-and-switch. Not a product bait-and-switch, but an opportunity bait-and-switch.
I have people in my books that have never bought a book or cd yet I am still associating with them outside of business functions because of the friendship we have formed, but I guess you would interperate that as me been a con artist and manipulating the person into buying the products. —- No, I would interpret you as a tool scam carrier.
You have made more personal attacks on this blog then any other and are willing to tell those who don’t agree to take a hike so I don’t think you are really here to DISCUSS but to ATTACK people. —- I am here to tear down the tool scam. If you get in the way, consider it collateral damage.
That comment would probably fuel your anger but hey thats how I am reading it. We can agree or disagree, who cares. —- My anger is already topped off with the tool scam, there’s not much you can say to increase it. You can agree or disagree, but be careful when you disagree with the facts. I care.
Tex on November 15th, 2008
P.S., click on my name for the tool scam facts.
thechaser on November 15th, 2008
I think it would be great if we can clean up this tool scam once and for all so that critics like yourself don’t actively destroy a business where you can still make money but because of your doing they don’t participate.
Amway will still pay you if you do the work, and I do understand the extent of the tool scam.
I pay about Aus$20 buck for a book and about $10 for Cds. The new owner of IDA aust couldn’t understand why it got so expensive and he is making changes and dropping the price and making CDs FREE of charge as new IBOs.
As for the figures 20K and more, you off all people would be one to mention the Dateline report that is about 4 years old and on there they mention repeatably of how much people have lost due to the ‘TOOLs’ and you know as well as me where we can easily find those figures on the net if you just look for it so please don’t play dumb as you don’t know where I have heard of those figures. You may not have mentioned it but it certainly plays a part in this discussion as that kind of report combined with your comment makes people think that spending 20K a year is what is FORCED upon the IBO which is not the case.
I am one to know that you can build a built a profitable business in AMWAY, did not dismiss the fact that one of our platnium is MAKING $6000 a month in AMWAY. not the tools. Her personal customer base is 6000pv a months plus she has a few other IBOs doing the same in her business. I guess you are saying she is a scammer too because she uses the CDs.
I also know of an emerald that made $150k a year in AMWAY not the tools, I have seen the amounts and his cheque from the tools is no where near that much. So it comes down to how you structure your AMWAY business.
my point is AMWAY is still an opportunity just like any other networking company. so by inviting them to a meeting or workshop is not a scam. not telling them what it is will be a scam especially if you entice them to a meeting by offering them a job .. and in one of your post you seems to imply thats what I did which is not true.
Tool money is explained as like any other profit sharing scheme. The problem in some organizations is that people stay on the tools because sometime they WANT to but not on the products hence there will definately be a case that tool money seems higher then AMWAY money. However is an organization have higher product flow then tool flow the AMWAY money will by far be greater that is not rocket science.
We show people where the money is in the AMWAY comp plan, thats not a crime because it does happen. We don’t need to sell them the tools to make money and books like merchant of deception doesn’t help the problem in that there is actually money in building an AMWAY business. Just some people don’t want to and have not structured the business properly.
I don’t even know why I bother writing back, you will never acknowledge anything I have said and would just continue to make personal attacks on me because that just seems to be the way you want to work. That is not going help in tearing down the TOOL scam. I have seen that facts and I have read several different blogs and acknowledge the problem but once again I can only say that my experience is different so it does not make me wrong where you continues to point out that I am wrong and that your right because you have the FACTs.
Tex on November 15th, 2008
I think it would be great if we can clean up this tool scam once and for all so that critics like yourself don’t actively destroy a business where you can still make money but because of your doing they don’t participate. —- I agree, I’m looking forward to building the Amway business, after the LCK’s are history.
Amway will still pay you if you do the work, and I do understand the extent of the tool scam. —- Sure, Amway pays, then the LCK’s take away. Just “understanding” the tool scam doesn’t protect the millions of other IBO’s getting scammed. How can you be so selfish and self-centered to only think of yourself when you know others are being scammed?
I pay about Aus$20 buck for a book and about $10 for Cds. The new owner of IDA aust couldn’t understand why it got so expensive and he is making changes and dropping the price and making CDs FREE of charge as new IBOs. —- The new owner of IDA is Bert Gulick, right? He’s been an LCK for decades. What do you mean by “new IBO’s?” The CD’s are free initially, then you start paying? How about the opens, seminars, and major functions? Voice mail? Web site? Anything else that goes from your pocket to Bert’s? Ask Bert how much he makes via the tool scam and tell me what he says.
As for the figures 20K and more, you off all people would be one to mention the Dateline report that is about 4 years old and on there they mention repeatably of how much people have lost due to the ‘TOOLs’ and you know as well as me where we can easily find those figures on the net if you just look for it so please don’t play dumb as you don’t know where I have heard of those figures. —- I have NEVER seen those figures for one year. I’ll be happy if you could find ONE source, but that is not the basis of my position. Just because IBO’s lose less than $20K/year doesn’t mean there’s no scam.
You may not have mentioned it but it certainly plays a part in this discussion as that kind of report combined with your comment makes people think that spending 20K a year is what is FORCED upon the IBO which is not the case. —- My personal experience, and the experience of MANY others, is you simply are ignored if you don’t buy tools. When I got off of standing order, I went from “best buddy” to a nobody overnight.
I am one to know that you can build a built a profitable business in AMWAY, did not dismiss the fact that one of our platnium is MAKING $6000 a month in AMWAY. not the tools. Her personal customer base is 6000pv a months plus she has a few other IBOs doing the same in her business. I guess you are saying she is a scammer too because she uses the CDs. —- She is a rare example and is still feeding the tool scam beast.
I also know of an emerald that made $150k a year in AMWAY not the tools, I have seen the amounts and his cheque from the tools is no where near that much. So it comes down to how you structure your AMWAY business. —- It comes to which checks he shows you.
my point is AMWAY is still an opportunity just like any other networking company. so by inviting them to a meeting or workshop is not a scam. not telling them what it is will be a scam especially if you entice them to a meeting by offering them a job .. and in one of your post you seems to imply thats what I did which is not true. —- You imagined I implied that. Amway could be an opportunity, but it’s not, it is a cover for the real profit center, the tool scam. Rich knew this in 1983 and it’s still true today.
Tool money is explained as like any other profit sharing scheme. The problem in some organizations is that people stay on the tools because sometime they WANT to but not on the products hence there will definately be a case that tool money seems higher then AMWAY money. However is an organization have higher product flow then tool flow the AMWAY money will by far be greater that is not rocket science. —- WRONG. Amway product markup isn’t nearly as high as the tools, and Amway money gets paid to all IBO’s, tool scam money goes to ONLY the higher levels, normally Platinum and above.
We show people where the money is in the AMWAY comp plan, thats not a crime because it does happen. We don’t need to sell them the tools to make money and books like merchant of deception doesn’t help the problem in that there is actually money in building an AMWAY business. Just some people don’t want to and have not structured the business properly. —- You are wrong again, see above. Ask your upline how much money they make on tools, see what their reaction is. They’re not ashamed of it, are they?
I don’t even know why I bother writing back, you will never acknowledge anything I have said and would just continue to make personal attacks on me because that just seems to be the way you want to work. —- Oh, poor little baby. You can’t talk facts, so go for the sympathy vote. Good job.
That is not going help in tearing down the TOOL scam. —- You’re right, the LCK’s have to be changed to get rid of the tool scam. So, what are YOU going to do as your part?
I have seen that facts and I have read several different blogs and acknowledge the problem but once again I can only say that my experience is different so it does not make me wrong where you continues to point out that I am wrong and that your right because you have the FACTs. —- I don’t “have” the facts, they’re available to anyone with the interest to learn. Just click on my name and engage your brain.
Tex on November 15th, 2008
Expanding on the above:
Amway will still pay you if you do the work, and I do understand the extent of the tool scam. —- Sure, Amway pays, then the LCK’s take away. Just “understanding” the tool scam doesn’t protect the millions of other IBO’s getting scammed. How can you be so selfish and self-centered to only think of yourself when you know others are being scammed?
In addition, why would you handicap yourself and your own group, both in terms of losing your Amway profit to the LCK’s and having to put up with the negative publicity I and others create? At least I base my criticism on facts, whereas others make up all kinds of BS. But how would prospects or new IBO’s know the difference? Answer: THEY DON’T.
Rahul on November 20th, 2008
Hmmm ………….
Rahul on November 20th, 2008
I checked that site ages ago . But lets not get on this page for fighting . I request TEX that you should actually complain against bad IBOs to AMWAY directly lets see what happens then. See at least this will ensure that Bad ones get eliminated out of the system.
Well for Hmm that is my figure of expression.
Rahul on November 20th, 2008
hmm now read this
http://www.andhranews.net/India/2007/July/19-Highcourt-Judgement-Amway.asp
Tex on November 20th, 2008
I’ve complained to Amway, loud, clear, and often. Amway isn’t interested in fixing the tool scam problem until the government threatens to shut them down, as happened in the UK.
Your story is over a year old.
Rod on November 20th, 2008
Hi….I am from Malaysia. Just to let you guys/gals know that Amway is a big business here. We have no doubts in Amway products. Everyone can do this business….its an opportunity for everybody. It’s all in the mind !
We have many professionals i.e. doctors,lawyers,architects who are in this business. Think positive and work your way to the top !
Rahul on November 21st, 2008
But Tex why r u after Amway so much just leave them. You learnt yur lesson let others get their education themselves . Dont get me wrong but we cant change the world
Tex on November 21st, 2008
Rod,
Who is your upline/what tool system do you use? How much do the various tools cost in Malaysia? I like Amway products as well, but the LCK’s have to be put out of business. It’s not all in the mind, it’s in the business model, which is broke right now. We have professionals getting ripped off by the tools scammers in the U.S. as well. Think positive, but don’t get scammed by ignoring the tool scam.
Rahul,
I’m not after Amway as much as I am the LCK’s. Most people get ripped off and quit, I decided to stand and fight. Why should I quit and let others get ripped off? I don’t know whether “we” can change the world, but I know I can. Maybe it’s an American thing, but I’m very optimistic things will continue to change. It’s already happened in the UK. Are you familiar with the tool profit rules in the UK?
Click on my name for the tool scam facts.
Rod on November 21st, 2008
Hi Tex,
We don’t have expensive tools to work with except for CD’s which can be purchased from Amway Malaysia. We do have weekly meetings and trainings hosted by the group leader. My upline is an Executive Diamond who has been in this business for 25years. We even have a successful businessman with 14 other businesses who is an Emerald. I am blessed to be in a group where we support everybody, we share our good and bad experiences. I guess it is important to be transparent and honest when you want to prospect someone.
Tex on November 21st, 2008
Rod,
You didn’t answer the questions. I asked how much the tools (CD’s, meetings, voice mail, web site, etc.) cost, who your upline is, and which tool system they use.
You have no idea how many people were “smiley faces” before they dropped out. It’s a lot. Millions.
Click on my name for the tool scam facts.
ibofb on November 21st, 2008
Rahul, Rod, ignore Tex. He’s of the opinion that folk are being scammed by being offered tools and services to build their Amway businesses, and that the people who offer them make money from it! Apparently he thinks its a scam because its kept a big secret …. and only mentioned on the contract you sign to join, the brochure that explains the business, plus virtually every official Amway website.
As for India, it’s an odd situation in one state, driven mostly by politics as best I can understand from folk on the ground. Amway is still in full operation throughout India, including Andhra Pradesh and is looking at it’s best year yet in 2008.
Tex on November 22nd, 2008
Rahul, Rod, ignore ibofb. He’s of the opinion that folk are not being scammed by being offered tools and services to build their Amway businesses, and that the people who offer them make money from it, then try to promote the Amway business as the profit source, when most of the profit is in the tools. Not only that, it is well documented most IBO’s don’t make a net profit until they are at about the Platinum level, which means they break even when they can build a network of dozens of new IBO’s getting scammed! Apparently I know it’s a scam because its kept a big secret …. and only mentioned in the fine print, in a very misleading manner, on the contract you sign to join, the brochure that explains the business, plus virtually every official Amway website. If the tool profit, which makes the LCK’s several times more profit than Amway, were such a great thing to talk about, why not make it part of the marketing plan? Why wouldn’t you show your prospects, and future “teammates” and “business partners”, the REAL business model? ibofb has NEVER been able to answer this question, he dodged it again on my site recently.
As for India, it’s an odd situation in one state, driven mostly by politics as best I can understand from folk on the ground. Amway is still in full operation throughout India, including Andhra Pradesh and is looking at it’s best year yet in 2008. I also understand there are severe restrictions on costs of various system tools, including the CD’s and meeting costs, hopefully that is the major cause of such growth. We need similar rules in the U.S., and the UK has also recently implemented a rule that allows ZERO tool profit.
Leah on November 23rd, 2008
oh honestly..this is such a load of crap! the people speaking in this forum are pathetic twits who would not understand success if it hit them on the head. i do not work for amway, neither am i an ibo or a distributor, etc. but i do know one thing..people who are willing to spread false accusations are people who really do not deserve to be anywhere near amway. they would be an absolute disgrace to the company as a whole. you dont want to be in amway and we dont want you, so piss off and go find another company to defame.
Tex on November 24th, 2008
Leah, which “false accusations” are you referring to?
Click on my name for the tool scam facts.
thechaser on November 24th, 2008
Hi Leah:
I hope you don’t mean ALL on this forum.. there is a handful trying to contain the problem but provide some information from our end.
Tex on November 25th, 2008
Hi Leah:
I hope you don’t mean ALL on this forum.. there is a handful trying to FIX the problem by providing FACTUAL information from our end.
Rahul on November 25th, 2008
Well Well I have been silent for a while but Leah I have been neutral to the whole thing so tell me why or what promplted to make you such a statement ?
Tex on November 25th, 2008
Why be “neutral?”
Examine the facts and pick a side.
Click on my name for the tool scam facts.
thechaser on November 25th, 2008
Tex:
because when a fact is presented it sometimes does not apply to everyone.
Hitler was presented as an evil person yet on the other hand was lifted up like an hero. Both party had their ‘Facts’ so which side are you picking???
Just had info that some diamonds have already clean out the apparent ‘Tool’ scam that you are referring.
There are actually people who are building this business correctly.
The point is, there will always be two sides of a story.
Thy on November 25th, 2008
Hi I have been doin the amway thing for about a month and honestly I dont see any scam. Its pretty straight forward. Its a membership program where you pay a once of fee, try the service(energy bars are the best ) by buying stuff online and getting a rebate. Its no different to let say going to coles and woolis paying inflated retail price and when you reach 30 bucks you get 4cents off your petrol. you spend 200-400 a month on food and drinks why not get somthing back for it. since joining for a month there is already 10 people under me and my upline has helped me heaps. I guess with any thing it takes time and effort.
To the cynics I want you to question your belif system. i eg is you belief system going to allow you to retire rich or allow you to retire on a pension. I only listen to people who produce results. I have done the tony robbins thing I paid 2000 dollars and it was the best thing I have ever done but the amway weekend conference was held at the same arena it only cost me 180 dollars. There was no differnce infact I got more satisfaction from the amway conference because you actully see people with results. Eg a lady who was on stage who acheived platnum level actully could not speak clear english like she was struggling but she has the results of getting a passive income of 40k. So really if someone like her can get to that level. Then everyone who speaks english and is motivated to change there lives can do it to.
Thy on November 25th, 2008
I have a business selling E books which I use to sell amway stuff on if u join my business and its for free and what ever you sell you can get 50% commission. Its cool so you have no start up cost, you dont have to stock up on goods, the best thing is if your good at marketing then you can make decent money
Tex on November 26th, 2008
thechaser,
I think we’ve had plenty of time and perspective to know Hitler and the LCK’s are cut from the same cloth.
If your upline is so good, name them, and then tell us how much the various tools cost. ALL of them, audios, videos, voice mail, web site, Open meetings, seminars, major funcitons, books, etc.
The only one, besides me, who is running a “clean” tool business is iteamusa.com. Could your upline claim the things on that site, and not be lying through their teeth?
Tex on November 26th, 2008
Thy,
You have been in the business for a month, the LCK’s (Lying Cowardly “Kingpins”) have been doing their tool scam for decades. You don’t think they can hide it from you for a month. Same question as I asked thechaser, how much do YOUR various tools cost?
Click on my name for the tool scam facts.
Tex on November 26th, 2008
Thy,
You’re probably breaking an Amway rule, by being a member of another networking related company that has competing products. At least if you live in North America.
thy on November 26th, 2008
Tex I feel sorry for you mate your so synical. If I was to hand over tens of thousands of dollars to make money then its a scam. I have actully attended seminars that cost well over 10k in total. My life has changed immensly I am actully in a position where I can retire. I dont own another networking related company its actully an E book business. I have not made money from this yet
but I actully use this website to generate traffic. I understand where your coming from but at the end of the day. Are you in a position where you can give 50% of your money to charity and have a good lifestyle. With or without amway I have made alot of money in the stock market. Using a particular strategie. So this amway thing is just to hang out with my upline. The tools only cost 40 bucks a month. 5 cds. to empower you, educate you and remember tony robbins seminar cost me 4000 dollars and 2 days of it was watching a over head projector of Tony. All I can say to you is stop wasting your time trying to inform the world of what works and what dosnt. Because the ones that do bad will suffer like omega trend.
thy on November 26th, 2008
Ok every month I will upload what happens amway Tex to see if your right or wrong and if they scam me I will let you know.
Tex on November 26th, 2008
thy,
I’m not cynical, I’m factual. Have you read the FACTS where most of the profit is made on my site?
You don’t have to turn over tens of thousands of dollars all at one time, the LCK’s bleed IBO’s to death slowly.
Who cares what other seminars you attended, we’re talking about the Amway tool scam.
I’m glad you can retire, but that doesn’t mean the LCK’s aren’t running a tool scam. The position I’m in doesn’t have any impact on whether the LCK’s are running a tool scam, either.
I doubt most IBO’s are in this “Amway thing” to just hang out with their upline.
The tools cost “only” $40/month? What is included in the $40?
I’m not wasting my time, I’m helping others not get scammed.
Thy on November 26th, 2008
Tex your position actully does matter unless you have been successful in mastering your money, then really your opinions are not worth the effort to read. what results have you produced?
It does matter which seminars I have been to because there are several scammers out there promoting highly costly seminars with the promise of getting rich why arnt you attacking them as well. my opinions are based on facts I have done systems which I have forked over alot of money some have failled others have worked. But the one thing that has made me who I am is I have no fear.
I only listen to people who have got the results of being financially free. And I been to enough seminars to detect BS. So yes it does matter which seminars I have been to.
Karma will destroy those who do wrong So i guess I appluad you for your efforts I live in New zealand and I think its a different system.
Thy on November 26th, 2008
Well heres a scam artist you can attack click on my name to see if you can really find stuff on him. Do me a favour get the free DVD watch it and tell me if the guys full of shit. Compared to AMWAY this guy charges more but it was well worth the money. But This amway thing is heaps better there are people that help you and I guess they have to.
21stcenturyeducation on November 26th, 2008
Tex I have read your links I guess the system is made to fail. I will take my chances because this is just a hobby to me, to learn and educate others.
Amway has not shut down yet till then I will keep on at it. I so fired up about this business
Tex on November 27th, 2008
Thy,
You aren’t understanding where I’m coming from. I am one of many who have been ripped off, similar to a robbery victim. Would you ignore a robbery victim because the very nature of the situation, by definition, means they are NOT in a good financial position?
I realize there are other “success seminars” outside the Amway business, and they can cost a lot money than an Amway seminar. But how many of a single source did you attend? The ones you enjoyed and profited from probably weren’t enjoyed or profitable to others, and vice versa. I don’t “attack” the other seminars because I don’t know enough to criticize them, am plenty busy with the Amway tool scam, and the other seminars are generally NOT operating an opportunity bait-and-switch scam.
I have no fear either, but that doesn’t change the tool scam facts.
I agree the other seminars have given you perspective to compare Amway functions, I meant the other seminars don’t impact whether the Amway seminars and other tools are a scam.
I would appreciate you answer the previous questions, regarding what the $40/month buys, as well as your upline IBO names/system name.
I am not going to look into the other “scam artist” you listed. As I said, I am plenty busy with Amway LCK’s. However, I don’t mind getting the free DVD, I am always looking for more insight/information.
21st,
The system is made to succeed, the question is who. The answer is the LCK’s. They make several times more from the tools and most IBO’s are operating at a net loss because of the tool prices and other operational factors.
I doubt you will have much in terms of results if you treat it as a hobby. I like the Amway business as well, just not the tool scam.
Rahul on November 27th, 2008
TEX & Thy this is a discussion forum and not to promote your own sites TEX I am sorry but it is bit bugging that after every second comment you write Click on my name for the tool scam facts.
thy on November 27th, 2008
Tex i guess I can understand where your comming from if you have been ripped of I wont deter you. I appologise for calling you synical. I suppose If i got ripped off from my upline I to would be on a crusade. reading your recent posting has allowed me to understand why you got beef with LCK. I guess all I can say to you is not to give up.
Did the LCK pressure you to pay for unnessary tools? (just curious)
40bucks gets me 5 cds. I just use it to lend out to people. Thats how i got in because I listened to the robert kiosaki cd cuz i know who Robert is.
Im sorry I cannot disclose my uplines details it just not right and I do not know you.
Rahul I appoligise for promoting my website http://www.poweronlinepublications.com
thy on November 27th, 2008
Also with regards to the Amway scam did you end up suing your upline Tex
Tex on November 27th, 2008
Rahul,
If referring to the tool scam facts on my site bugs you, ignore it.
I don’t apologize for trying to help others not get tool scammed like me and millions of others have been for decades.
Click on my name for the tool scam facts.
thy,
Thanks, I have no plans to give up, I’ve been at it for almost 4 years now. The LCK’s always pressure their IBO’s (not just me, it’s MUCH bigger than just me) to buy tools. Some are much more aggressive than others, but the pressure is almost always present. Some of them will loan out tools temporarily, but eventually they want you to “take charge” and buy your own.
I went off standing order tools over 3 years ago, and immediately went from “best buddy” to completely ignored. I was never again invited to any upline social events, such as Christmas parties, picnic outings, or even training sessions.
CD’s cost $1 or less to produce. They also clean up on books, the various meetings, voice mail, web sites, etc. Don’t be surprised when they turn up the heat to buy more CD’s and participate in other aspects of the tool system. If they were honest about how much money was being made, no problem. But, they like to call their IBO’s their “teammates” and “business partners”, and they are not treating us anything close to those terms. Would you want your business partner or teammate to make several times more on the tools you are buying from them, then turn around and show the Amway marketing plan to others, especially when most IBO’s below Platinum don’t make a net profit? Think about it, if you follow their “proven system” and “shortcut to success” by using the tools, you can look forward to breaking even ONLY if you can entice several dozen new IBO’s into running a net loss business. Unbelievable!
You don’t have to name your upline, but what is the name of your tool system? IDA? N21? Something else?
I can’t sue the upline. That was done by several IBO’s years ago (look up Amway/Morrison and Stewart for a couple of examples, and they changed the rules to require you to go through an arbitration process, which has been ruled as “unconscionable” (that’s real bad, look up the word if you’re not sure what it means) by several U.S. Federal judges – their words not mine. Even if I could sue, they have the big bucks to buy the high powered lawyers and tie the whole thing up in the courts until I run out of cash and/or time on the planet, whichever comes first. I’ve told Amway on the telephone and in e-mails I consider arbitration like attending a vampire convention with an open wound.
Thy on November 27th, 2008
network 21 is the subscription I use. Its all motivational cds, one of my upline lent me his cd and he had like a box full of cds accumilated over 2 years. But I like to listen to the cds.
Tex what other stuff did they make you pay for? I have paid for the seminars and meetings. actully I did pay for an unnessesary tool. It was called the starter pack came with 3 cds and couple of papers and the main manual it cost me 35 dollars. Is that what you are refering to tex
Thy on November 27th, 2008
Tex I have a friend who did the amway business he advised me not to spend thousands on tools as well he said the cds is enough. are you still in amway?
themessgoeson on November 28th, 2008
I’ve spent a couple of hours reading these posts..I’ve skipped some…but what I can take away right now (it’s well past midnight in India and my eyes are burning) is that there’s WAY TOO MUCH doubt over Amway, its affiliates and/or its business models and ethics. I’ve never seen any other business get so much battered in public forums like this one (except McDonald’s and Coca-Cola perhaps, the so-called big brands)…may be I’ll be back if I get something more conclusive….fight on guys…one key point i wish to make: agreed that Amway made some people – ok many people, but not way too many people – rich, but a lot of people – many times more (statisticians, please excuse) – DID get ripped off (sorry for two instances of double dashes)! good night for now…
Tex on November 28th, 2008
N21 is known as a “nicer” tool scam system, but no less of a scammer. Their “leader”, Jim Dornan, tried to put all the blame on Amway when the UK business was essentially shut down last year. He had to withdraw the letter and post a corrected one. What you’ll probably see is low pressure to buy tools in the beginning, but it will build as time passes and your business starts to grow. Just ask your upline Emerald or above how much they make via the tools versus Amway, and see what they say. In my mind, if they were proud of the tool scam money, they would include it when showing the plan.
It’s very important to note I’m not against tools, just the prices charged and the resulting profit for the upline, while most IBO’s operate at a net loss.
I’m still an IBO, and have spent the past 3+ years buying tools off the internet for pennies on the dollar. For example, I don’t buy books for more than $1 each, plus shipping (I have several hundreds). I buy tapes/CD’s for 20 cents each, including shipping, which comes to about half the cost if the quantity is more than about 50 and Media Mail is used (I have well over 12,000 of these, plus a bunch of printed materials).
If the LCK’s focused on motivation, entertainment, and product knowledge at the major functions, and confined the “how to” information to seminars and other training opportunities, they could have IBO’s attend the local crossline major functions, saving thousands of dollars per year in travel/hotel/meal costs. But they don’t care about the IBO’s making a net profit prior to getting to the Platinum level, creating a continuously rotating cast of IBO’s feeding the LCK’s coffers. Remember, if you don’t succeed, it’s YOUR fault, because their flawless and proven tool (scam) system isn’t the problem. Yeah, right…NOT!
Tex on November 28th, 2008
Just to follow up on the tools, the method I use is to lend the tools out and provide new ones on a continuous basis. A $20 deposit (refundable if you quit and bring the tools back) is the only requirement, and if tools are lost, part of that money will buy new tools.
I should be able to support hundreds of IBO’s using this method, and eventually produce our own tools when there is enough demand to bring the cost down.
Lisa on November 29th, 2008
I signed up to this venture after an informal evening presentation. After all of the smoke and mirrors, it was apparent to me that in order to make the kind of money that they were talking about, was to have lots of people under you buying the products. In the end we decided to join as we thought that even if we could save some money on our personal purchases that would be ok. However upon returning home and looking through the catalogue, I noticed that we dont really buy a lot of the products they sell. To confirm this further, I did a mock shop online just for groceries. My purchases came to around $680 and I would need a small room to put it all in! Then I went to coles online to compare the prices. In most cases we would have been paying more by going through
Amway. So I sent an email to the sponsor asking for our money back! In the end, if you want to make lots of money you have to eat, sleep and breathe Amway. This I am not prepared to do.
Muhammad on November 29th, 2008
I recently joined this sort of MLM strategy to have a look for myself. I have to say I do have my doubts about it, but heck it cost about NZ$99 (New Zealand Currency) to join and after 3 months you can get ur money back def. So far the idea of me buying my everyday home necessities from them and getting some of money back seems like a fair deal only if the cost of the item is reasonable compared that off supermarkets. Sometimes it is.
In regards to the success stories, ya they do go over board. But i guess some people will only pay attention to such things (thats why tv’s is filled up with flash ads and expensive life styles).
Down here in NZ, I sincerely conquer that there is no pressure in attending nor signing up. The seminars are merely there for new people that are interested in seeing what the company MLM strategy has to offer.
Look at it from this point of view- you introduce a friend on where to do his/her daily shopping with straight from the company (Middle profits man taking out). – very much like suggesting a cheaper store.
Collectively you get the middle mans cut. As people introduce other people, at some point you can relax and earn money even while sleeping
If one happens to be introduced wrongly, then surely you will be put off.
In regards to the cd’s among my team, we share the cd’s. No harm at all.
We definitely do not regard this as a religion nor cult. The idea is NO PRESSURE on people at all.
Feel free to reply to this comment on this page. That way we both can get educated.
Thy on November 29th, 2008
Tex you got me interested how are you a ablle to buy the tools that cheap
Tex on November 29th, 2008
themessagegoeson,
I believe there have been changes made in India to significantly lessen the amount of tool scam profit that can be made:
http://texsquixtarblog.blogspot.com/2008/01/new-business-support-rules-for-amway.html
Lisa,
In order to make a lot of money, you DO need a lot of people in your organization, or sell a LOT of stuff. Nothing wrong with either of these, or it would be a something for nothing scenario, and probably illegal. What you probably DIDN’T see is the outrageous profit made via the tools. Also, I don’t advise new IBO’s to compare ALL the products to those in the stores, as most people don’t value all of the product lines, only some of them, and the ones they value will be different than other people. For example, one IBO may like the vitamins and others the cosmetics. There are so many available, you don’t have to buy all of them, especially in the beginning.
Muhammad,
Your key words above are “recently joined” and “no pressure” to buy the tools. The pressure will probably increase as time goes by.
Thy,
I keep an eye on tools being sold online, such as Craigslist and eBay.
ibofightback on November 30th, 2008
Gee, thought I’d check back in here and now I see where Tex has been occuping himself. He takes over pretty much every site that allows him to. He’s been banned by virtually all independent sites commenting on Amway, both those run by supporters and critics, I’m sure you can see why.
Tex on November 30th, 2008
Gee, thought I’d check back in here and now I see where ibofb has been occupying himself. He take over pretty much every site with his half-truths that allows him to. He’s been “self-banned” from my site because he can’t answer simple questions, especially the ones related to the tool scam, I’m sure you can see why (he can’t handle the truth).
Nathan on November 30th, 2008
I’m neither pro nor anti amway, in fact the concept of an MLM is used in (where the team leader earns an override off the performance of his reps) or where a wholesaler sells products to their retail outlets…But here’s what I see that’s good and bad about it.
Good:
Great for networking
You can learn some highly powerful sales techniques
They have a whole heap of motivational tapes available
Bad:
It lacks total transparency. I own businesses, lots of my friends own businesses. We market our business name at every opportunity (heck i’m holding back the urge to put down one of the web addresses right now!). When someone asks me or any of my friends “Hey, how does your business work?” or “what do you do for a living?”, it’s pretty easy to answer these questions. This is rarely the case with anyone involved in an MLM.
Quite often MLM’s invoke powerful and manipulative psychology to keep their recruits involved (such as making them feel like a failure if they “quit” or that this is the only opportunity they’ll ever have to make money).
Amway does nothing illegal, and as the “devotees” have pointed out it’s not a pyramid scam…the only problem is that many of the IBO’s who effectively distribute their products through building “communities” (for the cynical: to shovel over priced consumer goods to- For the the “enlightened”: to buy great quality products at a wholesale price) regularly mislead or deceive those they introduce to the concept. They do this in the following ways:
- Inaccurately reporting the “average” incomes
- Answering “no it’s not amway” when asked “is this amway?”
- Claiming they’re “business partners” with products they represent. This is the statement I find most hilarious, because it’s been used a few times in this blog. “Why would coca cola do business with us if we weren’t a reputable organisation”….Well I present 2 answers for you:
1.) Because they don’t care! I could own a milkbar and have spent 10 yrs in prison for murder. I very much doubt coca cola would refuse to supply their drink to me if they knew I was in a prime location for selling drinks. Do you?
2.) They don’t care…business is about creating revenue and making profit. Amway has a large amount of distributors all around the world, so why wouldn’t they supply their drinks to them?
anonymous on November 30th, 2008
If people stop buying tools, where are you going to buy your tools from?
anonymous on November 30th, 2008
Luke,
Is there a reason my last comment was taken off? Anyway, I hope you leave this one on as I think it’s reasonable.
Tex,
If you are buying tools from ebay, and people stop buying tools, where are you going to get tools from?
If you are so passionate about this subject, then why don’t you take your money and put it into recording equipment, burners, etc, and start your own cd system? Why don’t you take your own money and put it into renting rooms so you can bring in speakers for your group?
If you had spent the last 4 years building your business with the same passion and energy you’ve spent fighting this “problem”, wouldn’t you be at least a Platinum by now? Possibly even an Emerald or Diamond? Wouldn’t you have the tool system that would be the envy of Amway? Couldn’t you be held up as the shining model for all the leaders of the business to follow? Wouldn’t that be a more positive solution than what you are currently doing?
Luke on November 30th, 2008
Comments are sent for moderation, so they don’t appear instantly
Tex on November 30th, 2008
Nathan,
I agree there needs to be better transparency with Amway. However, the reason there isn’t transparency is because the LCK’s (Lying Cowardly “Kingpins”) have severely damaged the reputation by making most of their money via the tool scam. Even those of us who don’t do this cannot be totally transparent, because if you mention the Amway name to someone, many of them either have a negative concept or look it up on google and learn a negative concept.
The “powerful and manipulative psychology” is also tied to the tool scam, as a means to prevent questions from being asked. This is also falling apart, thanks to the internet and the open information it provides. We’re not there yet, but we’re making progress.
There is no “Inaccurately reporting the “average” incomes”, but it is required by the FTC and VERY misleading,
- Answering “no it’s not amway” when asked “is this amway?” is again because of the tool scam, see above,
- Claiming they’re “business partners” with products they represent. This is the statement I find most hilarious, because it’s been used a few times in this blog. “Why would coca cola do business with us if we weren’t a reputable organisation”….Well I present 2 answers for you: —- By the way, Coca Cola no longer does business with Amway,
1.) Because they don’t care! I could own a milkbar and have spent 10 yrs in prison for murder. I very much doubt coca cola would refuse to supply their drink to me if they knew I was in a prime location for selling drinks. Do you? —- This is a weak argument, because we’re talking about a large scale business relationship, not a milkbar. Apples and oranges.
2.) They don’t care…business is about creating revenue and making profit. Amway has a large amount of distributors all around the world, so why wouldn’t they supply their drinks to them? —- Business is about creating revenue and making profit, but not ONLY about these things. I don’t think Coca Cola would do a business deal with cocaine dealers as the “Official Drink of Cocaine Dealers”, do you?
Anon said, “If people stop buying tools, where are you going to buy your tools from?” —- If people stop buying tools, why would you? Are you not a person? On a more serious note, I’m not advocating an end to selling tools, just a drastic decrease in price so they are tools to create Amway product based profit and not a tool scam. I suggest you google “Rich DeVos Directly Speaking”, and you will find 2 recordings, one audible and the other a transcript, where one of the co-founders complains about the tool scam.
I already have plenty of tools, so if the supply dried up today, I’m in a VERY good position. In fact, I would be in an even better position if this happened.
The recordings are copyrighted, so I can’t make copies. However, as my business grows, we will make our own recordings and probably supply them electronically, such as MP3 downloads. Free or VERY low cost, of course.
Why should I take my own money and put it into renting rooms so I can bring speakers for my group?
Sure, I could be Platinum, Emerald, or Diamond by now, but I would have had to use the tool scam system offered by the upline LCK’s, and create dozens, hundreds, or thousands of new tool scam victims. Is this something you would be proud of doing? Not me.
I didn’t have the tool system I have now 4 years ago. I hope I will not only be the envy of Amway, but help stop the overall tool scam.
I doubt I will ever be held up as a shining example for all the leaders of the business to follow, as I am causing them to take a MAJOR pay cut.
However, that is the “end game”, and is a very positive solution.
Luke,
The complaint from ibofb is designed to cause you to ban me, so he can continue hiding the truth. I suggest you open it up again, but it’s your site.
Tex on December 1st, 2008
Luke,
I also suggest “Anon” use a real name. I suspect he is ibofb or an LCK, and you may have tools to check whether the IP address is the same as ibofb for the times he posted.
TJ on December 1st, 2008
I have a friend who introduced me to amway, i had just gone to college and i dint have a job and she made it sound like a dream come true, it was part time blah blah, how much i could make etc. So i joined the very next day (i’m ashamed of this, i should have known better but it’s the dream that got me) anyway so i joined and less than a week into it i realised that the products were not the main thing, she started asking me to go to conferences and to start using the products, first of all i had only just joined the group and i was very uncomfortable with it, and the products, as good as they claim they are could be obtained at a fraction of the cost at any supermarket. i also realised that she was more intent on me recruiting other people and applied pressure constantly, so i got suspicious and i thought “if this is MY business wy is she concerned with what i do with it unless she is going to profit from it?” it was meetings every saturday and a conference every other week, readings to do and “motivational” cd’s. I was very turned off by it. If they were all about products they would be more like avon and although avon is pushing products there is nothing remotely similar to Amway, Amway creeped me out, it’s like they were trying to take over my life
so i cut my losses and ran, i promised not to spend my money on products that i did not need and were expensive and i would not trick anyone else into this position.
I now detest the girl, she kept on calling me like a telemarketer and when i politely told her it was not for me she still aggressively, almost forcefully asked me why exactly i did not want to be involved anymore. Almost as if i was doing something wrong by using my options as to what to do with “MY” business.
She was a friend before but not anymore, i steer clear of her whenever i see her,
so imagine if i had convinced my family and friends to join? i would have no friends and very angry family members.
I am just glad that although i was fool enough to join, i was not fool enough to stay. all they got was that first fee and i never touched them again.
ibofightback on December 1st, 2008
Nathan,
The business doesn’t lack transparency, some people working the business do. Big difference. It’s a bit of a catch 22 situation for some. They’re embarrassed to talk directly about what they’re doing because of a bad reputation that’s been at least partially caused by folk being embarrassed to talk directly about what they are doing!
Amway in many countries, Australia and the US for a start, are embarking on public advertising campaigns that at least partially are targetted towards the Amway business owners themselves – be proud of what you’re associated with and let people know.
Concerned IBO on December 1st, 2008
Tex,
I was posting under anonymous, and no I am not IIBOFB. You said this.
“The recordings are copyrighted, so I can’t make copies. However, as my business grows, we will make our own recordings and probably supply them electronically, such as MP3 downloads. Free or VERY low cost, of course.”
That was my question. If you are so passionate about this, why don’t you take your own money and put it into making your own recordings? Right now you have a supply that is cheap because someone else produced it and already paid for it. Someone else took the time to prepare the talk, someone else took the time and money to distribute them, someone else took the time and money to produce it. Why don’t you be a Free Enterpriser, take the risk and put your own money into equipment, distribution, production?
I believe you and your group will benefit more from that than blogging constantly about the “tool probllem”.
TJ, sorry for your experience. Unfortunately we cannot control the actions of everyone that gets involved in this business. I had a bad experience with a car salesman once too. I still do go to them when I need a new car.
I hope you have good success in whatever you’re doing now.
Tex on December 2nd, 2008
TJ,
You could have asked for your fee back. If it hasn’t been a long time since this happened, you still can. I’m glad you didn’t become another tool scam victim.
Nathan,
The business lacks transparency, because people are what run businesses, and virtually ALL of the ones at Platinum and above lack transparency. THAT group of people is who ibofb is referring to, when he says “some people.” Big difference. I prefer the word “lying”, because it’s much more accurate. There is no “catch 22″, there are Lying Cowardly “Kingpins” (LCK’s) and there are the rest of the IBO’s getting ripped off via the tool scam, simple as that. ibofb’s circular logic is anything but logical.
Check out iteamusa.com and their “Founding Principles,” they are the only other organization, besides how I’m running my business, that I’m aware of that openly promotes not being involved in the tool scam.
I’ve said before, and I’ll say again, all the advertising in the world will be money thrown down the drain if the tool scam isn’t fixed.
Tj on December 2nd, 2008
Thank you Tex
i did ask, she said it was too late as i had already recieved the materials “starter kit”.
i really din’t care, i was happy do get away with what i had before it was too late. I would caution anyone about this.
Thy on December 2nd, 2008
Well I have been doin the amway business. I realise that amyway business is not easy. Like anything you have to work on it. At the end of the day its a numbers game. The uplines dont make much from the downlines till they reach a high level. So at the start its crucial that your upline supports you and does most of the work for you to get you started.
The truth is why sales tactics are needed is everyone who thinks of Amway has a preconceived idea of amway. Its the actual Ibos that create a bad name. Its not a get rich quick sceme. My upline who is an emerald took almost 30 rejections till he got his first signup, What would have happen if he gave up at 29?
People are so worried about giving this ago. I have share stategies and property strategies which all need to be leveraged through OTM(other peoples money) do you know how scary it is to put money on the stock market or a property development yet its normal to lose money. But when it comes to amway everyone is so sceptical. Your inital cost is $107 with delivery (of a certin pack). My stock brocker cost me 90bucks commission brokage for his full service. I lost money based on his advise. I cant get my money back.
With amway you got 90 days to try the system. what so scary about trying it for 90days.
How you choose to profit from this business is up to you. Actully my upline encourages me to buy things from him so Tex your right but I choose not buy due to the fact I choose to grow this business at my own pace.
With regards to how much you upline makes from IBOS. It works out to be only 4% or 4 cents off every dollars. So its in their best interst for them to do most of the work till you get up and running. Obviously if you give no commitment the upline willl not help you.
So the only way you can make money from this is to help other people become successfull amway rewards people for their hard work and effort.
I had a preconcieved idea about amway yet I did not know why.
At first I was so awkward about this business especially when it came to the invitation.
Please try to post your consecutive comments altogether as I have to approve and combine each of them separately.
ibofightback on December 2nd, 2008
ConcernedIBO asked Tex -
Right now you have a supply that is cheap because someone else produced it and already paid for it. Someone else took the time to prepare the talk, someone else took the time and money to distribute them, someone else took the time and money to produce it.
Not only that, but someone also *bought* it. The cost of Tex’s “tools” is higher since there’s the price the original customer paid for it, plus the price Tex paid for it.
It’s cheaper for Tex because somebody also already paid for it.. Tex essentially is running his “free enterprise” business through leeching off other people in some kind of twisted welfare system.
Tex on December 2nd, 2008
TJ,
There is a 6 month period you can return products and tools, as long as the tools are are in good condition. You could use up ALL of the product and return it, and still get your money back, INCLUDING the shipping cost to return it. Receiving them has NOTHING to do with the return policy. In fact, if the criteria was receiving materials, there really is NO return policy, is there? Although the damage for YOU was limited, can you imagine how many tens of thousands of other people are being taken advantage of every year in this manner? I assume the person who told you that you cannot return the items was your upline, NOT an Amway person, correct?
Thy,
Where do you get the figure of 4%?
Also, the upline makes a LOT of money before you grow a large business, assuming you buy their tools. I know you said you’re not doing this, but many others are. That’s the point.
Concerned IBO,
I missed your comment, here’s my response:
Why should I make my own recordings, when I can buy recordings for less than the original cost of the materials? The recordings are done by those who have built the business, although they did it in spite of the tool scam, not because of it. I have a huge variety of backgrounds, personalities, etc. It’s an almost perfect situation! Why would I NOT take advantage of it? The upline could have bought these materials back, but they didn’t.
What I am doing IS free enterprise. I am doing what Sam Walton did when he founded Walmart. He didn’t go out and manufacture his own stuff, he just moved other peoples’ stuff around more efficiently and became extremely wealthy.
I am focused on ALL IBO’s, not just me and my group. The tool scam needs to be stopped, or what happened (and is still happening) in the UK may come to a country near you. Are you familiar with the near and still threatened Amway shutdown in the UK? The recent changes in India? Russia?
TJ, I wouldn’t take advice from someone who was taken advantage of and still returns for more abuse, as Concerned IBO has stated he did.
ibofb,
That makes ZERO sense. First, the “not only that” has been dismantled. Secondly, if you buy something for a fraction of the original cost at a garage sale, would you say the cost is “higher” to the new owner? Not me. How about the rest of you, do you agree with ibofb’s “logic?”
Call my techniques “leeching off other people” if you wish, but I buy these items for more than the upline would have paid for them. So, if I’m a leech, what does that make the upline? I know, Lying Cowardly “Kingpins.”
Why should reducing business overhead in a legal, moral, and ethical manner be considered a “twisted welfare system?” The real twisted welfare system is being run by the LCK’s, with YOUR tool money.
Why is making money from Amway, as is shown in the marketing plan, considered “some kind of twisted welfare system?” ibofb, your logic is so twisted that common sense looks twisted to you.
Bridgett on December 3rd, 2008
I didn’t know Sam Walton was in the garage sale business, buying and selling second-hand stuff.
Wow, the things you learn from the Internet.
Concerned IBO on December 3rd, 2008
Tex said “Why should I make my own recordings, when I can buy recordings for less than the original cost of the materials? The recordings are done by those who have built the business, although they did it in spite of the tool scam, not because of it.”
I disagree, the system helps me to build my business. It helps IBO’s to stay loyal and active. Perhaps that wasn’t your experience but it certainly has been mine and I’m sure for many other IBO’s who are in our LOA.
You also said that what you are doing is Free Enterprise and compared it to Sam Walton. Again, you miss the point. Sam Walton still had to go out and invest money in a distribution system. He still had to open stores, he still had to get computers, he still had to get trucks and everything else it takes to open a chain of stores. I agree with IBOFB, you’re leaching off of others.
Once again, why don’t you go out and build the business with your system and solve the so called tool problem? It would certainly be more beneficial than blogging everywhere about your so called “tool scam”. It would certainly affect more lives in a positive way.
Having said that, I can see that you probably will find some way to comment back to me. I just hope you can see that your reacting in a negative way, to the “problem” and not focusing on the positive solution. As my upline Diamond says to me. “The answer to most problems is to build the business”.
I’ll let you have the last say here as I need to go out and show the plan! I hope you do the same.
Tex on December 3rd, 2008
Concerned IBO,
Why didn’t you answer the other questions/respond to my other points?
I wrote an analogy on qblog a while back, comparing the tool scam to helping someone build a house, but having to buy $400 hammers from them in order to participate. I value hammers (and the various tools), but for $20, not $400. I expect to make the profit from Amway (the house), as the marketing plan shows, not from a hidden tool scam (hammers).
Walmart has taken a lot of heat for putting a lot of other businesses out of business, do you also think Walmart should quit? How about Michael Dell, he started an internet based business, and didn’t buy a lot of the items most other computer makers/distributors did. Should he quit as well? Did Dell “leech” off of FedEx/UPS, because he used them to deliver his computers? Did he “leech” off of the other computer makers, because he didn’t open up brick and mortar stores? You’re a joke if you think your criticism is going to have ANY adverse impact on my actions.
Why don’t you go out and mind your own business? I’ll use my system when the conditions are proper, and it’s getting VERY close. The most beneficial thing I could do is shut down the tool scam for everyone, not just my group. I am focusing on a very positive solution, but sometimes you get dirty when you’re battling dirtbags, or in this case, LCK’s.
Your upline Diamond (and every other Diamond, by the way, yours is hardly unique) says to go build the business because he knows he can sell more tools by telling you that. Get a clue. I have one! I hope you do the same.
Tex on December 3rd, 2008
“Bridgett”,
I didn’t know a single person could take an analogy out of context and make such stupid statements so consistently.
Wow, the things you learn from the Internet.
Bridgett on December 3rd, 2008
Amway Global is:
*spending hundreds of millions of dollars in advertising and sponsorships,
*pouring new bonus money in to the compensation plan
*developing attractive retailable products
*creating initiatives that will create profitable IBOs in the first 90 days
…and a single person is focused, not on building an Amway business and selling a product for more than IBO cost, or teaching others to make immediate profit by selling products.
Instead he puts his attention on amassing and cataloging and creating a system of 1,000s of old, used, and outdated CDs, tapes, books, etc.
‘Nuff said.
Tex on December 3rd, 2008
“Bridgett”,
I am able to take advantage of ALL of the “*” items you listed.
Why should I sell a product for more than IBO cost if I don’t want to? Do you realize this is one of the issues the FTC slammed Amway for in the ’70′s? Go mind your own business, “Bridgett.”
How would you know whether I teach making immediate profit? Any IBO is free to sell for whatever price they desire, including IBO’s in my group. Do you realize PV/BV earned on products sold at IBO cost is still profit, whether it is to customers or other IBO’s?
Amass, yes. Cataloging, no. The “old, used, and outdated CD’s tapes, books, etc.”, are 95% as good as the new ones, for 5% of the cost. Do the math. Oh, and mind your own business, “Bridgett.”
You people sound VERY jealous you don’t have the tools I do, and ashamed you’re part of your uplines’ tool scams.
‘Nuff said….almost.
And don’t forget to tell us about tucking your kids into bed tonight. After all, this is a grownup business discussion….for most of us.
Tex on December 3rd, 2008
Is it sinking into anyone else that while ibofb, “Bridgett”, and Concerned IBO (who should be concerned about the tool scam, but isn’t), are criticizing me, and all I’m doing is a legal, moral, and ethical approach to lowering overhead for all of my IBO’s, while their upline Lying Cowardly “Kingpins” are making several times more in profit via the tool scam than Amway for Emeralds and above, while the business model all of us show is making profit via Amway?
Does anyone else see the complete lack of honesty, morality, and ethics these 3 represent?
There’s a recent post on my site that discusses the issue in depth, in view of a recent “run-in” I had with Amway. Check it out: The comment dated December 1, 2008 10:12 PM, https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=7395124008407193399&postID=3129294688711089896
Bridgett on December 4th, 2008
Tex,
You too have an Upline making a lot of money from tools. Ultimately, we all do. The question is what part, and how much of each “System” every IBO/ABO partakes in.
Just like an IBO/ABO isn’t forced to buy and use and sell every single product Amway/Amway Global offers, an IBO/ABO isn’t forced to buy and use and sell every single “tool” their System offers.
Take what is beneficial to you and leave the rest.
It’s called “free will”.
Tex on December 4th, 2008
“Bridgett”,
Is that what you tell your kids, “little Johnny beat up his friend, so feel free to beat up one of yours?”
Ultimately, I don’t make a lot of money from tools.
Why do you insist this is a permanent requirement?
Do you realize the UK is now operating on ZERO tool profit?
And this includes even the travel/lodging for upline while traveling to support their groups for seminars, opens, and major functions?
The question is, why can’t you see that making multiple times more from tools than Amway while showing someone how to make Amway money is unethical, immoral, and plain WRONG!
Do you think Rich DeVos was wrong when he made his Directly Speaking recordings?
If so, why?
The LCK’s don’t have to “force” their downline to buy every single “tool” their System offers, because they know they are taking advantage of people who have never owned a business, have an existing relationship with their immediate sponsor, and all they have to do is heavily promote the system and watch the tool scam profits flow in.
If someone gets “out of line”, such as going off standing order tools, the LCK’s simply change from treating like a “best buddy” to ignoring them.
I have personal experience in that technique, and it had NOTHING to do with my online or any other persona. I was invited to various outings, parties, training sessions, etc., until I went off standing order, then it was as if I didn’t exist.
I take what is beneficial to me, in the form of tapes/CD’s for 20 cents or less, inclusive of shipping, and books for $1 or less, plus shipping. A $20 deposit is made to borrow tools. Bring them back and you can borrow more. If not returned, the $20 is used to replace the tools. If you quit and return the tools, you get your $20 back. No major functions, unless they are local, treat monthly seminars as major functions 3-4 times/year, hold our own at cost the other 8-9 months/year. IBO’s make money at a much lower PV volume level, stay in and grow, rather than the “grow and die, repeat” model of the LCK’s. Do you realize when you see all the new pins in the Achieve, and volume in North America has been flat (actually declining when inflation is factored in) for YEARS, other pins MUST fall down in volume?
It’s called “free enterprise.”
Bridgett on December 4th, 2008
Tex,
I hear you. I agree with you that making tons of money on “motivational” materials, while using Amway as the shield is wrong.
I agree with you that directly or implying that the money one earns is from Amway bonus checks rather than tool income is wrong.
I agree with you that to tie being a decent human being to someone to their purchases of tools is wrong.
And I see that the Corp is doing something about this, Tex. You can’t just “take out” all the people you think are “bad people”. They have too much influence on IBOs.
Look what happened to your own Upline when, “the head was beheaded.” It created chaos, confusion, and “bloodshed”. Not a good thing.
I do not wish to see the same thing happen with other (and larger) groups for the sake of all IBOs.
Tex on December 4th, 2008
Bridgett,
You agree with everything above, but are unwilling to be part of the action to CHANGE it. That is very close to Rich DeVos’ position in 1983, and I have seen no significant changes being made by Amway in the U.S. In fact, Ron Mitchell, who is in charge of the rules department, told me on the telephone a few months ago Amway sees NO PROBLEM with all of the things you agree with, above. Exactly what do you think Amway is doing about this? Amway has also refused to enforce their own written rules, even when clearly shown the rules applied to a situation. The specifics can be found on “my” site. Putting any trust in Amway is not advised by me.
I’m quite happy with what happened to my upline, just think how many IBO’s are no longer being scammed. Plus, even though they weren’t “beheaded” because of the tool scam, the event brought fresh attention to the tool scam. Orrin even admitted on his own blog Emeralds and above made 4-5 times more tool profit than Amway profit.
The chaos, confusion and “bloodshed” should be balanced with the status quo alternative, and if done for the right reasons with other groups, more “heads being beheaded” would be a good thing overall.
Bridgett on December 4th, 2008
Tex,
Of course the rules guy has to say what he says. That’s politics. If he said, “No, we think these people are wrong.”, well then they’d have to go and “behead” a bunch of people.
How do you know that it wasn’t because of the tool scam that the “beheadings” occurred?
Amway wanted them to “play” differently, which would have severely cut down on the number of people signing up with quixtar/amway global, who were not moving amway products, but “tool” products.
That’s what was happening–they were promoting their System more than the products offered by quixtar. And the “stacking” was a method to get everyone “on system”, not giving a rip if there was any PV moving through those “businesses”.
That group had, supposedly the most pins break, but the lowest PV per IBO? That does not equal profitability–at least not Quixtar-money profitability.
And they didn’t care that the Quixtar money was so low, because their loyalties were towards promoting the tools. They were making their money on the tools (and by paying tool money so far down the line, they were including everyone in the “scam”, everyone had “blood on their hands” and brainwashed in to thinking that this was okay business practices).
What Amway wanted/wants is for EACH IBO to be profitable, in and of its self, without having to sponsor a gob of people (all using a ton of “tools” to stay motivated ’cause they ain’t makin’ any money). They want EACH IBO to make a few hundred bucks, and by the movement of PRODUCTS.
That “beheaded” group was unwilling to do this, because it was going to cut in on their tool money.
The more profitable an IBO is, individually, the less people it takes to build a Platinumship/Emerald/Diamondship.
The less people it takes to build a P/E/D, the less people “on system”.
Example:
150 IBOs @ 50 PV
15 IBOs @ 500 PV
Both equal a Platinumship (in North America)
One has one-tenth the number of people. What’s THAT gonna do to a System’s revenues?
Amway Global is pumping a ton of cash and resources in to getting IBOs profitable (with Amway money) within the first 90 days.
If an IBO is profitable, he’ll renew. And if he renews, then this means fewer people needing to be sponsored, which means less people going through the System revolving door—churning them in and out.
So I do trust what Amway Global is doing.
Let me be clear: I believe systems have their place. I think they do have value. But if they become THE business, rather than a support business, then, yes, there is a problem.
Mr Tlt on December 4th, 2008
Tex are you a diamond
thechaser on December 4th, 2008
I do like the idea of no profit or little profit in tools, I can understand the frustration in Tex however I do not agree with the blatant bashing of those who have obviously benefited from the tools.
Tex, you are right those old tools are just as good as ones now especially the stories. Those stories have been the same for years because you will only succeed when you go after a dream that you can CLEARLY identify.
That is why I also believe there is a place for the tools. It is just unfortunate that some people have taken advantage of the ‘system’ and made loads out of it.
It looks that IDA aus is cleaning up and will be eliminating cost in registration on tools and also allowing free downloads to new IBOs; details not confirmed yet but in the process of relaunching new site and TV streaming for IBOs to learn from at minimal cost. I do believe they are trying to follow UK’s move.
Either way its moving in positive direction.
Mr Tlt on December 4th, 2008
If its to good to be true is a term coined by synical people who have fears and limitations. Yes there are scammers out their but Luke would you think it may be better to have an opened mind, question everything and be sceptical then make an informed decision. Rather than make a synical conclusion. your not asked to handover thousands of dollars just 100 bucks to sign up for a membership. I believe you have no right to complain about your financial situation when ever you got the shits. I grew some balls and faced my fears. Yes It could be a scam but I made an informed decision
Tex on December 5th, 2008
Of course the rules guy has to say what he says. That’s politics. If he said, “No, we think these people are wrong.”, well then they’d have to go and “behead” a bunch of people. —- This is politics, and it goes far beyond politics. It gets into complicity and partnership with the LCK’s. Look, I didn’t fall off the turnip truck yesterday, but Ron Mitchell made this statement several months AFTER Amway shut down the UK tool scam (and several other practices, such as sponsoring), and only a couple months before the UK judge said the tool scam (and ALL tool profit AND support costs, which I think is overreaching) will stay permanently shut down. Even with these strong measures, the UK prosecutors are trying to shut down Amway in the UK. One must compare this action happening in the UK and potentially getting “imported” to the U.S. with clamping down on the LCK’s. In reality, Orrin wasn’t “beheaded”, he was given a choice to stop breaking rules (again, after 6 YEARS of being repeatedly “corrected”). He chose to not change, so he was booted.
How do you know that it wasn’t because of the tool scam that the “beheadings” occurred? —- I don’t “know”, but the above statement by Ron Mitchell earlier this year, Orrin’s termination letter, and the lack of further “beheadings” all point in the direction of it NOT being because of the tool scam. I’m certainly NOT going to make that assumption, Rich DeVos complained a quarter century ago and no meaningful changes have occurred since.
Amway wanted them to “play” differently, which would have severely cut down on the number of people signing up with quixtar/amway global, who were not moving amway products, but “tool” products. —- The products were always a part of TEAM, but Orrin took full credit for both the tool system AND the products. They pushed DOT1/STEP very hard. I attended several opens and a seminar, I’ve seen it.
That’s what was happening–they were promoting their System more than the products offered by quixtar. And the “stacking” was a method to get everyone “on system”, not giving a rip if there was any PV moving through those “businesses”. —- No, they were pushing both. Without the “cover” of the products, the tool scam doesn’t work, because only the higher levels get paid. Remember, I was there. I saw it with my own eyes.
That group had, supposedly the most pins break, but the lowest PV per IBO? That does not equal profitability–at least not Quixtar-money profitability. —- I don’t think the PV per IBO differed much from other groups.
And they didn’t care that the Quixtar money was so low, because their loyalties were towards promoting the tools. They were making their money on the tools (and by paying tool money so far down the line, they were including everyone in the “scam”, everyone had “blood on their hands” and brainwashed in to thinking that this was okay business practices). —- They paid lower levels than Platinum, but not a lot lower. There were still MANY more IBO’s not making tool profit than were, and they even had a contract preventing them from disclosing tool profits to others.
What Amway wanted/wants is for EACH IBO to be profitable, in and of its self, without having to sponsor a gob of people (all using a ton of “tools” to stay motivated ’cause they ain’t makin’ any money). They want EACH IBO to make a few hundred bucks, and by the movement of PRODUCTS. —- So do I, but this is the rare exception, not the rule.
That “beheaded” group was unwilling to do this, because it was going to cut in on their tool money. —- There is no evidence this is what caused the “beheading”, by any of the references above.
The more profitable an IBO is, individually, the less people it takes to build a Platinumship/Emerald/Diamondship. —- True, because you’re talking about Amway money, not tool scam money.
The less people it takes to build a P/E/D, the less people “on system”.
Example:
150 IBOs @ 50 PV
15 IBOs @ 500 PV
Both equal a Platinumship (in North America)
One has one-tenth the number of people. What’s THAT gonna do to a System’s revenues? —- It will drastically decrease the revenues. But let’s be accurate, the Systems’s revenues are really P/E/D revenues, and are MUCH greater than Amway revenues for these folks.
Amway Global is pumping a ton of cash and resources in to getting IBOs profitable (with Amway money) within the first 90 days. —- This is a good thing, but only half of the equation. If the tool scam stays, the only net change an IBO will see is a higher percentage of them can now afford to be tool scammed. You are putting something in the bucket, but there’s a hole in the bottom, and it leads right to the LCK’s “swimming pool.” The increased “inflow” must be coupled with decreased “outflow”, or all Amway will have done is given the LCK’s a bigger opportunity to push their tool scam.
If an IBO is profitable, he’ll renew. And if he renews, then this means fewer people needing to be sponsored, which means less people going through the System revolving door—churning them in and out. —- That’s my point, the IBO won’t be profitable. More retail means a higher percentage of them can afford the tool scam.
So I do trust what Amway Global is doing. —- I like the filling part, but the hole must be plugged.
Let me be clear: I believe systems have their place. I think they do have value. But if they become THE business, rather than a support business, then, yes, there is a problem. —- I agree completely. The question is, what are YOU going to do about it? Throw your hands up, and declare, well that politics for ya. Bend over and take it? Allow others to be abused? There was a recent post on ibofb’s site from a guy in Sweden, and I think in N21, who was lamenting the lack of retail emphasis from the upline. How many aberrations do you have to read before you realize it’s the norm, not the exception? As I’ve told Kia, I plan to run through the finish line, not stop short.
You know, I used to be confused how Hitler could take over an entire country with the agenda he had, and hardly anyone protested. Now, I understand. “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for some good men to do nothing.” (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Edmund_Burke)
Perhaps Amway is sequentially sweetening the pot for the LCK’s to at least partially offset their tool scam losses, and sweetening the pot for IBO’s, so when they later clamp down on tool profits, less LCK’s will leave, and will have less influence on their downline, because both the LCK’s pot has been sweetened, and so has the average IBO’s. But until that happens, I keep up the pressure, because I don’t know if that is what is planned, and Amway isn’t talking. Not that they should, it could backfire if announced too early.
Tex on December 5th, 2008
I do like the idea of no profit or little profit in tools, I can understand the frustration in Tex however I do not agree with the blatant bashing of those who have obviously benefited from the tools. —- I am less concerned with the LEVEL of tool profit, and more interested in the TRANSPARENCY in tool profit. If you don’t think I should be blatantly bashing the LCK’s, then you need to read your Bible and read how Jesus Christ handled these types of folks. I look like a meek school girl compared to how He ripped those who deserved it. Haven’t you ever heard of righteous indignation? Do you realize it’s biblically based? Do you really think there would be meaningful progress if we politely requested the LCK’s stop the tool scam?
Tex, you are right those old tools are just as good as ones now especially the stories. Those stories have been the same for years because you will only succeed when you go after a dream that you can CLEARLY identify. —- Exactly.
That is why I also believe there is a place for the tools. It is just unfortunate that some people have taken advantage of the ’system’ and made loads out of it. —- I agree completely. If I didn’t, I wouldn’t have purchased them.
It looks that IDA aus is cleaning up and will be eliminating cost in registration on tools and also allowing free downloads to new IBOs; details not confirmed yet but in the process of relaunching new site and TV streaming for IBOs to learn from at minimal cost. I do believe they are trying to follow UK’s move. —- This is good news, but it needs to come to the U.S. to help me. We don’t have a registration cost for tools, how does that work currently?
Either way its moving in positive direction. —- Agreed, but we are only moving, we’re not there yet.
Bridgett on December 5th, 2008
“The more profitable an IBO is, individually, the less people it takes to build a Platinumship/Emerald/Diamondship. —- True, because you’re talking about Amway money, not tool scam money.”
No, it’s because there is more PV running through each individual IBOship, and so you need fewer IBOships to create the volume of a Platinumship, and therefore Emeraldship, and Diamondship.
The profitabilty is made by retailing that 500 PV I used in the example, not self-consuming it all.
It appears that many systems teach retailing as a way to pay for “tools”. This really short-changes the value of retailing, on many levels.
Retailing needs to be looked at as a way to make some money AND this creates confidence that the business opportunity actually works!
Many people don’t share the business opportunity ’cause they aren’t making any money, because they aren’t retailing. I think people underestimate how impressive making just a few hundred bucks a month in a part-time business is. And for those who can see a bigger picture, they then can grasp that if they help a mere15 people (in width and depth) make $500 (600 PV–500 PV retail, 100 PV personal use profits around $500 in North America), then they make Platinum money, which is good money!
And since you have IBOs actually making some cash, these IBOs will stick around, rather than you having to keep sponsoring to replace those that quit.
Who wants to keep sponsoring and to replace all those who quit all the time? What a drag, even for those with the most mental toughness.
Tex on December 5th, 2008
Bridgett,
I realized you were talking about increased retailing, did you read part of my response above, repeated below?
“If an IBO is profitable, he’ll renew. And if he renews, then this means fewer people needing to be sponsored, which means less people going through the System revolving door—churning them in and out. —- That’s my point, the IBO won’t be profitable. More retail means a higher percentage of them can afford the tool scam.”
My point is the bucket MUST be plugged up, or the increased retail money will simply flow THROUGH the IBO’s to the LCK’s.
Bridgett on December 5th, 2008
Tex,
If people are making money, do you think they need to listen to a gazillion CDs and attend a gazillion meetings to stay motivated? And wouldn’t the cash in hand be the credibility that an IBO needs to prove the business opportunity works, rather than having to point to some rich guy on a stage?
I’d challenge the effectiveness of a “System”, in it’s current form. Just as Amway is re-defining itself, the Systems, regardless of tool money, need to do the same.
What would happen, to refer to Rich’s Directly Speaking talk that you are always referencing, if the edification were put back on the Platinums? How would that change things?
Tex on December 5th, 2008
I think it’s less a matter of what they need, and more a matter of what is being pounded into their head by upline. I can easily imagine the upline, upon seeing the retail profit being made, start beating the drum very hard, that to take it the next level, to own a business rather than being a sales person, to attend the functions, buy the CD’s, etc., because you want to OWN a business, not be a sales person, right? And with the retail profit, it is obvious a MUCH higher percentage of IBO’s can afford it, right?
I agree the tool systems need major changing, and I don’t see it happening.
I think putting the edification back on the Platinums was the goal of the “Directly Speaking” recordings, and I understand the 2 on the internet are only 2 of dozens that were made. The higher level pins squawked, probably threatened to move their business to another MLM (and the 6 month/2 year rules weren’t in place back then), and Amway retreated. I can see the same thing happening today, as the Platinums are still more loyal to upline than Amway. Why wouldn’t they be, they worked their guts out to get to Platinum, are probably just breaking even, have trashed all the “broke losers” with jobs for months/years, and the MA$$IVE tool scam money is within reach. I would prefer seeing the emphasis put back on ALL IBO’s, which is easily done with email. In fact, I recommended this approach about 3+ years ago.
thechaser on December 5th, 2008
what is this recording you keep referring to??? where do I get one??
Tex on December 5th, 2008
Have you ever used google?
ibofightback on December 6th, 2008
thechaser, I’ll put the directly speaking recordings on Amway Wiki on the Rich DeVos article sometime in the next few hours.
Do have a listen to them and you’ll here DeVos talking about how *SOME* leaders have been abusing the BSM situation. Tex likes to ignore that word.
Tex on December 6th, 2008
The only leaders I can find who aren’t abusing the BSM situation are iteamusa.com, me, and some of the non-system “independents”, who, by definition, aren’t very visible.
All the others charge about the same amount for tools, so unless their production costs are SIGNIFICANTLY higher than the others, are scamming their IBO’s.
Even the “great” Jim Dornan. He’s just another, run of the mill LCK.
Mr Tlt on December 6th, 2008
Tex click on my name to get my email address. I want to ask you for just a helping hand. Because when I start sponsoring people I want to do things the write way. http://www.poweronlinepublications.com
Mr Tlt on December 6th, 2008
Sorry tex I meant doing things the right way
Tex on December 6th, 2008
Where do you live?
ibofightback on December 6th, 2008
Amazing, the all omniscient Tex, who since he doesn’t know how other groups are operating, unilaterally decides they must be doing it badly. Mind you, he has an inbuilt mechanism for dealing with info that doesn’t fit what he wants to believe – he just says they’re lying. I’ve provided him with average BSM income statistics for a major group, he just ignored it and claimed it was false.
Mr Tlt – I wouldn’t recommend Tex for advice. From what he has said, his downline asked for a transfer to another sponsor and his upline wants nothing to do with him. Not exactly a model to follow for building a network marketing business!
Chris on December 6th, 2008
You guys can sugar coat it all you want but Amway is a scam, numbers don’t lie. My sister tried to get me in this scam a few years back, I went on the web and got the facts (Amway’s own website) and saw that people don’t make crap, it ruins familys and tons of other stuff.
Just keep dreaming of walking the beaches of the world as you con family, friends and strangers, Heaven must hold a speacial place for people like you who will con people knowing full well what the truth is.
Bridgett on December 7th, 2008
Mr Tlt,
Don’t you have a sponsor and more people Upline?
Since you haven’t started sponsoring yet, it would appear you are new to the Amway business?
Wouldn’t it make sense to get some direction from your sponsor and your upline before taking advice from strangers on the Internet?
Why would you register with someone if you would take a faceless person’s advice instead of theirs?
Or do you have other motives for posting the website you posted?
Something doesn’t add up…
Tex on December 7th, 2008
ibofb,
I’ve never claimed to be omniscient, but if that’s how you feel, so be it. I know enough about how other groups work to know they are making their big bucks on the tool scam, while using Amway as the “cover” business. In fact, several independently posting Platinums/Rubies have indicated most IBO’s have to be at that level just to break even, which means they have to sponsor several dozen new IBO’s willing to lose money.until they get to that level, which means they have to find several dozen of their own IBO’s willing to do the same thing.
I guess you “forgot” that letter your hero Jim Dornan wrote about the UK shutdown, got scolded by Amway, and had to rewrite the letter.
I can dig it up again, as I posted it on the Alticor or Amway blog.
You know, the one you posted on your site, took down, posted a second time, then removed a second time?
Keep in mind N21 has been kept shut down in the UK, as the judge ruled ZERO profit is allowed on tools.
I wonder how active N21 is, with the profit equation adjusted like that?
If Dornan wasn’t a Lying Cowardly “Kingpins”, he would post his tool profit openly. The “statistics” you provided on your double top secret red piece of paper in Prague, under promise not to disclose specifics, wasn’t official, and it didn’t include some of the larger sources of tool scam profit, such as the functions.
I never ignored it or said it was false, just that it didn’t come from an official source and was only part of the picture.
You’re a liar ibofb, just not a very good one.
In the real world, half the truth is a full lie, in ibofb’s world half the truth is all you need to know.
My downline did ask to transfer, because the upline had fostered a blind loyalty they didn’t deserve.
Most of the upline are now gone, either drinking MV juice or elsewhere.
My former downline even sold me a bunch of their tools, for pennies on the dollar, of course.
The upline didn’t want anything to do with me after I stopped standing order tools, and frankly, I don’t want much to do with them either.
Why would I want to hang out with lying cowards?
Why would someone like me, putting together an ethical, moral, and honest business, not be a good model to follow?
Bridgett,
Mr Tlt has probably seen enough to not trust his upline.
Good for him.
If I have no financial interest in his business, and his upline is trying to scam him, why wouldn’t he get some input from me?
He probably registered prior to learning more about the tool scam, as most IBO’s do.
It all adds up for me….
Tex on December 7th, 2008
By the way, ibofb is divorced, has another child out of wedlock, is an atheist, runs various pornographic websites, has undying loyalty to N21 because it helped him when his first marriage fell apart, and pays attention to only the facts he selects.
He has a huge ego that does not allow him to be wrong.
My favorite example of this was in Prague earlier this year: For some reason, we were discussing when degrees F and C were the same number, and I knew it was -40.
He insisted it wasn’t, and his inflated ego wouldn’t allow him to back down.
He has bragged about his background constantly, and I doubt he even knows my background, as I don’t brag.
If he was the slight bit interested in someone else rather than himself, and knew something about my background, he probably would have at least paused prior to insisting he was right.
But that’s just the kind of person ibofb is, so consider all those facts if you choose to listen to him.
Bridgett on December 7th, 2008
Regarding “break even” points, there are two factors:
*what is your outgo
*what is the structure of your business.
My experience, taking advantage of all support materials of my LOA–all functions, all CDs, books, voicemail, travel, childcare, retail websites, etc.–which, I would NOT advise for the brand new IBO, but I’m saying that the maxium two people (a couple) would spend on my LOA tools…
I would cover those expenses either:
retailing 800 PV (getting retail profit and BV profit)
or
sponoring IBOs using about 1,900 PV (19 IBOs @ 100 PV) (getting BV profit only).
or
a combination of the two.
If someone is “breaking even” at Platinum, then either their expenses are waaaay too high, or they are buying the pin and the volume is not being consumed or sold, or they have no width and most of their volume is running down one or two legs.
The word “platinum” tells me nothing about the profitability of someone’s Amway business. Unless you know the structure (how wide are they and what is the PV of each leg) you have no way of knowing how much money they are making.
As an example, a Platinum (7,500 in North America) can have 2 legs @ 4,000 PV. That’s around 24,000 BV. They get 4%, while all the rest of the bonus money flows downline. That’s only $960 for the month.
I personally know Platinums–not even Rubies–who are making three and four times that amount, because they have good width–about 12 legs at varying PV levels. (and that’s not factoring the $20,000 annual bonus for maintaining 7,500 PV per month for all 12 months, aka Q12 bonus)
Bridgett on December 7th, 2008
On another note:
Are you saying that the Amway business is not the place for:
*those who are divorced
*those who believe God is non-existent
*those you don’t legally marry the person they live with, with whom they have a child?
I’m not any of these, however I would not qualify a person I’d sponsor on these three criteria–on other criteria, yes, but not on their past marital status, spiritual beliefs, or views on legal marriage
Maybe we can keep the discussion on the Amway Business, and how one runs their Amway Business, rather than personal matters?
Just a thought…
Tex on December 7th, 2008
Bridgett,
Assuming your figures are accurate, and I doubt you’re including everything, such as costs for showing the plan (gas, which can be significant for out of town groups, babysitters, meals, etc.), the extra trips expected when you move towards Platinum, etc., why should it take your “first fruits” to go to upline and help them make several times more from tools than Amway?
To address your other note, did I say the Amway business is not the place for:
*those who are divorced
*those who believe God is non-existent
*those you don’t legally marry the person they live with, with whom they have a child?
No. The purpose for listing these items (and you left out the pornographic web sites and misplaced N21 devotion, 2 important ones), was to point out evidence of ibofb’s CHARACTER. We are all anonymous on these blogs to some level, whether our name is known or not. I never said I would qualify a prospect on these issues, and probably wouldn’t know about these issues until AFTER they were sponsored. However, these types of people wouldn’t be near the top of my prospect list. By the same token, you can’t compartmentalize someone’s life as if one part doesn’t impact the others. I slam jc all the time for his behavior, why don’t you defend him?
I would be happy to keep the discussion on the Amway business, you should note I bring up these other issues ONLY when someone tries to say something about me that is incorrect/inaccurate, especially when they know better.
Bridgett on December 8th, 2008
My expense numbers are accurate. I guess the point is, that different LOAs do things differently. One being is that we show plans online, thus reducing the need to drive and fly all over the place, thus reducing travel expenses and childcare.
We do training online and over conference calls, thus empowering the IBO to do their own plans and merchandising events locally.
***************************
Regarding the porn site reference, I think there’s a big difference between “running” a porn site and owning a web-hosting company which offers servers and web space to “house” it.
I’m not saying that offering to host such a site is okay. I’m just sayin’ I think there’s a difference.
****************************
I think correcting/clarifying what someone says about you, as you did, is sufficient.
*******************************
Regarding jc, what is there to defend? He claims all that stuff that you “slam” him about, are just “stories on the Internet”. So if that’s the case, then everything he says on the Internet related to the Amway business are just “stories on the Internet”, made up, false, not true, make-believe. 
*********************************
I came in to this Amway Internet Discussion long after you and others have developed some animosity toward each other. I’m not looking to participate that way.
I don’t think we’re all gonna join hands and sing Kumbaya, but I do think that being respectful (regardless of the other person’s actions toward you) is good (for lack of a more flowery word). It moves the discussion forward, rather than it deteriorating in to a cesspool of name-calling and attacks and nastiness and ugliness.
Just my view. Not saying it’s right or wrong. Just my observations…
Tex on December 8th, 2008
You answered the part of the question you wanted to, and ignored the rest, as usual. The main question is why should the “first fruits” go to the upline so they can make several times more via the tools than Amway, regardless of the IBO PV/structure break-even point? I’m not denying there are differences in methods, only there is very little difference in the resulting business model, as described above. If there is a significant business model differerence, then Ron Puryear or any other LCK for that matter, should have no issue with stepping forward and provide the tool payout model, as iteamusa.com has done.
It’s also different being a hooker or the madam/pimp, but I don’t think it’s a significant or meaningful difference. One could even make the valid argument the latter is worse, as one madam/pimp being taken out of circulation impacts several hookers being in “business”, but not vice versa. When the madam/pimp is also trying to represent a legitimate business, such as Amway, their other “profession” becomes even more questionable.
If it was the first time correcting/clarifying, I would agree. When it’s the umpteenth time, I disagree. When it’s an egomaniac, completely devoid of morality, ethics, or honesty, I TOTALLY disagree.
I have the same take on jc, if his stories on the WSG are “made up”, everything he says can be questioned as truthful. But it goes deeper, as he also lied about being the same jc until proven it was the same person. Not only does he supposedly make up stories, he is willing to lie to avoid being caught. I seem to be the only person willing to point this out on a consistent basis, and point out the significance of these issues. In this blog world, if it isn’t recent, most new bloggers don’t know about it. Inefficient, but that’s the way it works. If I could point this out once and everyone would always see it, I wouldn’t have to repeat myself. My goal isn’t to constantly pick on him, it’s to ensure the important facts are visible to the new reader. Plus, I only do this when he starts to criticize me. Otherwise, I stick to the discussion topic.
The animosity with other individuals was developed only AFTER I tried for months to stay civil. When it was obvious my message was getting lost in the attacks coming at me, I “punched” back, which isn’t “good” (for the lack of a better term), but it is better than the message getting drowned out in a one-way cesspool of name-calling and attacks and nastiness and ugliness.
As they say, war is hell. But the alternative is less acceptable. If it wasn’t, we would all be speaking German or Japanese, and have none of the freedoms we should all value. We should also thank our parents/grandparents they didn’t react “civilly” to the Japanese exactly 67 years ago today, and today, exactly 67 years ago to the day after the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, President-elect Obama picked a Japanese American to head up the Veterans Administration. Who could have predicted that, 67 years ago?
You probably have noticed I have been more civil with you the last several posts. This is a conscience decision, not based the previous cesspool of name-calling and attacks and nastiness and ugliness between us, but more recent civil discussions.
Bridgett on December 8th, 2008
Regarding the comment about my upline getting my “first fruits”, part of the equation that doesn’t seem to be addressed is the fact that I get something in exchange for the money I willingly pay to my LOA.
What if I find value in the CDs, the books, the majojr functions, the local functions held in 80 cities across the countries, the retail websites, the online interective plan, the online training, the voicemail, the web-based conference calls, the retail signage, the ordering and tracking software etc? Do I think a brand new person needs all the bells and whistles? No. Nor to I see everything being recommended for the brand new IBO.
But as one’s business grows, there’s something really great about not having to handle the details for certain stuff. When I was back at the Corp a few months ago, it became apparent that there was a lot of crud that I personally didn’t have to deal with (that no one in my LOA had to deal with) because my LOA’s emplyees were handling that stuff. I will gladly pay for that kind of service.
Amway Global is about three years behind on things, like a decent retail website with a the Ditto module. Only recently do we have a useful receipt and sales tracking module at amwayglobal.com.
When they start providing stuff like this, then I’ll re-evaluate my LOA purchases.
But I’m not gonna wait around for three years and so I appreciate my LOA giving me what I need NOW.
*****************************
Regarding why people don’t come forward with their BSM profits, ask Amway Global. I think the legal word which prevents disclosure is “enticement”.
There is legal jargon on documentation showing lifestyle that says,clearly, that what is presented could be from not just Amway money, but from BSM money as well as investments (at least in my LOA this disclosure is written on everything).
***************************
Regarding jc, I don’t think you’ve been the only one claiming that he’s a liar.
Wasn’t it IBOfightback who was the one who uncovered all the lies?
http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/the-joecool-threat-story/
http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/the-joecool-threat-story-pt2/
Tex on December 9th, 2008
If your prospects knew the upline was making several times more from the tools, I have no issue with this. This scenario would be the free market in action. If a lot of IBO’s shared your position, there shouldn’t be ANY issue with this information becoming common knowledge, including being a part of the marketing plan. My gut feel is a LOT of IBO’s would not only be shocked and surprised, they would quit, unless the prices and resulting profit came down significantly. Amway may have a problem with it, but that’s their position. I just want to know whether someone claiming to be my “business partner” and “teammate” is being honest regarding the business model.
I like the things the corporation does for us as well, from regulatory, legal, political, manufacturing, distribution, and a whole host of other areas.
In many groups, all of the “bells and whistles” are pushed hard to the new person and/or a “new” person doesn’t stay “new” for very long. In either case, we’re talking about the business model, not the techniques/timing of the tool systems. In other words, the bottom line is the bottom line.
I thought customers could use Ditto, as I think one of my customers uses it, but I may be wrong. I agree the Amway site could be much more “retail friendly.” However, my customers appear to find things they want and need on the Amway site.
I’ve asked Amway, many times, and their public position is one of not getting involved. One person’s “enticement” is another perons’s “material disclosure.” The UK, India, and Russia (and probably other countries we haven’t heard about) have all recently agreed with “material disclosure.” We’ll eventually see what the FTC and possibly other U.S. regulators and courts think, hopefully soon.
I’ve seen these disclosures on the Achieve magazines (although not the recent ones), but I have always seen “other sources”, never BSM profits mentioned.
I never claimed to be the only one, just the only one who is consistent, in this “only the few most recent days is viewed” blog world we live in. How would a typical new prospect or curious IBO be expected to find the links buried on ibofb’s site, or think there was continuing relevance to something that is several months old?
ibofightback on December 9th, 2008
Wow, haven’t I missed some fun. Tex, I don’t have “undying faith” in N21 because it helped me when my first marriage broke down. I don’t have “undying faith” in anything, and N21 had little to do with my dealing with my divorce. You’re just making up stories. I don’t run porn sites either, though I did own a company (now sold) which offered web hosting services and apparently one of the hundreds of clients had some sites marketing services (not porn) that were 100% legal in their country.
You also mention the rather trivial discussion about the C/F temperature conversion, and completely neglect to mention that upon return when I saw you raise the topic on your website I publicly admitted you were right and I was wrong.
Much of the rest continues in the same vain of just plain wrong or just plain silly. Get a life, Tex.
Brooke on December 9th, 2008
I was in Amway/Network twenty one for a while. They told me a lot of lies and half truths about how the business works so I finally quit. My sponsor was always more worried about me attending meetings (at a cost) than he was about me selling products . I finally saw through the facade and walkes away a bit poorer, but wiser.
ibofightback on December 9th, 2008
Brooke, what lies and half truths were you told, and by whom – who is “they”?
Brooke on December 9th, 2008
Lies – I was told that I don’t have to sell product. When I asked how you earn an income without selling, I was told that I get compensated by purchasing for myself and sponsoring a lot of people who also purchase from themselves. I said that did not sound like a business. My sponsor told me that there is no profit from the sale of seminar tickets. When I discovered there was a profit, my sponsor then said there was a profit but it went back to the into the business to make other tools more affordable. I thought it was hogwash. The folks who promote the network twenty one system is the “they”. They are more interested in selling tickets than anything else.
Tex on December 9th, 2008
I forgot, you’re an atheist, so it follows you “don’t have “undying faith” in anything”. My bad.
Just because something is 100% legal in a particular country doesn’t make it qualify as not being pornographic.
The “trivial” F/C discussion was merely another in a long list of ILLUSTRATIONS that demonstrated your GIGANTIC ego to me. I already knew I was right and you were wrong. The point wasn’t who was right about the number, the point was how your ego kicked in while in Prague and prevented you from considering you may be wrong, not to mention you didn’t have a clue the background of the person you were disagreeing with, even though you had blogged with/against me for YEARS, and had ample opportunity in Prague to learn more about me. THAT’S the point.
Much of the rest continues in the same vain of just plain wrong or just plain silly. Get a life, ibofb.
Tex on December 9th, 2008
Actually, it’s more like 1/4 truths, as your upline probably makes 3/4 (or more) of their profit from the tool scam, and 1/4 from Amway. I’m glad you saw the deceit and didn’t get scammed for too long. Here’s a more recent blog with the same sad story, this time BWW is the tool scamming company: http://quixtarisnumber1.blogspot.com/
ibofightback on December 9th, 2008
Brooke, the person who seems to have been telling you “lies” isn’t “folks who promote …N21″, it looks like it was your sponsor, who unless they were a platinum or above was probably just wrong, not lying. Did you ask the N21 office about BSM compensation? Did you ask Amway?
With regard to “no selling”, your sponsor simply explained it poorly, which suggests to me further they are inexperienced. When you sponsor someone and they purchase products, you’re effectively “selling” to them, and that’s where the business is and profit can be made. Most people don’t think of this as “selling” even though it is. Your sponsor was probably referring more to the idea of having to have personal customers, and in some countries that isn’t a requirement. In others you can sign people as customers, and they shop for themselves on the internet. They’re still “buying” from you, but there’s no active “selling” going on by you as most people think of it.
If you actually check what N21 teaches and trains, it includes having at least 10 customers right from an early stage, indeed if you follow N21 training then most of the time you’d have more customers than people you’ve personally sponsored. You also have a lot more $$$$ flowing through your business from the use and sale of Amway products than the use and sale of N21 products. The reason why seminars are promoted is because we know that people who attend seminars generate far more volume in Amway product sales (both from customers, personal use, and “wholesale sales” to downline) than people who don’t. If we know it makes a difference, wouldn’t we be negligent not recommending you attend seminars?
Bridgett on December 10th, 2008
Tex,
My upline is not making “several times more from tools”. I told you this in Prague. I gave you the figures of my own upline and you simply do not believe me. And yet you continue to call Ron Puryear of WWDB a LCK.
(WWDB has mostly a U.S. and Canada presence, for those reading. So if you run in to people overseas claiming they are a part of WWDB, I would highly doubt the authenticity of this, except maybe in Korea which Leonard and Ester Kim are Crown Ambassadors and are sponsored by Ron and Georgia Lee Puryear, and you have over 400 diamonds in Korea)
I tell you the benefits I get from the “tools” that they offer, years ahead of what Amway Global is offering, to support my business, and you brush them off as not important. (by the way, I was talking about Amway’s personal websites, not the main site about not having a Ditto module).
I tell you that new IBOs are NOT encouraged to purchase all the “bells and whistles” and you tell me that most IBOs have them “jammed down their throats”.
I am not denying what’s happening in all the world of Amway, but in my LOA, WWDB, in my personal LOS, the picture you continue to paint is not the reality.
So while you continue to malign the people I associate with, and therefore me myself, I am successfully and ethically building an Amway business and helping others to do the same.
Good day.
Brooke on December 10th, 2008
It sounds like you give my sponsor a pass. He always told me he was plugged into the network twenty one system and was teaching right out of the network twenty one playbook. He told me that selling product was not important. He said the networking and sponsring people is where the money was made. He also told me that I needed to attend the expensive meetings or I could not succeed in the business. Is that how network twenty one passes off responsibility? By teaching their people wrong things and then claiming that they have no responsibility because they did not pass on the information correctly?
Tex on December 10th, 2008
Brooke,
ibofb likes to pretend N21 is the greatest thing since sliced bread, but they’re just like the rest of the tool scammers. N21 gives lip service to retailing, and by the time it gets “filtered” down to you, it isn’t mentioned. There’s an old story about a worker telling his group leader how bad the vapors smells/stinks in his workplace, the group leader tells the supervisor there is a strong, pungent odor, the supervisor tells the manager there is a intense, earthy smell, the manager tells the VP there is good intense atmosphere, and the VP tells the CEO the workers are thrilled with the ventilation changes made recently. And just like this story, we have dysfunctional communications, but more like a family at the Thanksgiving or Christmas dinner, where some factions don’t talk to others, so they pass information through the ones that are on speaking terms with both sides, even though all are sitting around the same table. So it is with the blogs. Where are the LCK’s? Hiding behind the IBOAI site. The rest of us are on other blogs, and if you ask the IBOAI site about the tool scam, the door slams shut and you are “banned.” We talk fairly openly on the OZ sites, again minus the LCK’s, except when it comes to “official” communications, which are handled through other channels. LITTLE of this would be necessary if it weren’t for the tool scam.
I’ve asked both N21 and Amway about the tool scam, aka “BSM Compensation.” They don’t answer these questions.
Regarding ibofb’s intentionally confusing explanation of selling, I will assume you live in a country where non-IBO product purchases is required to earn the downline volume bonus, or it wouldn’t be an issue in the first place. They may not be aware of the requirements, but somewhere upline they are and just don’t care, because they know a lot of IBO’s don’t want to sell, and it would reduce their tool scam income. Period.
ibofb would also be correct about the purpose of seminars, if it wasn’t for the MA$$IVE profits made.
Tex on December 10th, 2008
Bridgett,
If Ron Puryear isn’t making similar money as the “other” groups, why are his tools about the same price as others?
Does he run a SIGNIFICANTLY less efficient operation?
That is the ONLY way he CAN’T be making similar tool scam money.
He’s either a liar or a very bad businessman.
I vote for the former.
Why doesn’t he advertise a similar set of principles as iteamusa.com does?
Your upline also used to say there was NO profit in tools.
Are you not counting the “speaker fee” money, like ibofb likes to do?
How can you just take their word, after being proven as liars?
How could I NOT call Ron Puryear another LCK?
It doesn’t add up Bridgett. And this is simple math.
Tex on December 10th, 2008
Brooke,
I don’t give your sponsor a pass.
He’s either ignorant, and kept that way by his upline, or he’s lying through his teeth.
Bridgett on December 10th, 2008
From what I’ve read online, Tex,
WWDB does not sell the number of CDs, books, etc. as other groups. (less income)
They do not hold nearly the number of functions as other groups. (less income)
They employ a larger staff than other groups do. (more expense)
They offer all-expense paid incentive trips, that other groups don’t (more expense)
They have more diamonds and emeralds sharing in the earnings than other groups. (more expense)
They offer more sophistated services (translation: a better product and therefore more costly) services, like the retail websites, the online training sites, the accounting/retail software, that other groups don’t. (more expense).
This is simple math, Tex.
Tex on December 10th, 2008
Great, then Ron Puryear should step forward and describe how much tool money is made by the typical P/E/D.
He has nothing to be ashamed of, except the truth.
This is simple honesty, Bridgett.
Bridgett on December 10th, 2008
Tex,
It’s not about being “ashamed”. I addressed why in my #230 comment. The word “enticement” remember?
Just like the critics of this business demanding to see my tax returns as proof that I make money in my Amway Business. It’s laughable, and so is your demand that Ron Puryear “step forward” to satisfy you.
Just because no one wants to talk to you doesn’t mean they are doing anything wrong. It just means they don’t want to talk to you.
Just being simply honest, Tex.
ibofightback on December 10th, 2008
Brooke,
Read the N21 “franchise” manual, otherwise known as the “system for success” and see what “core” involves. It clearly includes retail clients. Go find an n21 Diamond and ask them if having customers is part of the N21 system. They’ll all tell you the need for clients.
If your sponsor was telling you “no retail clients” then he wasn’t teaching you the N21 system, simple as that, so clearly he doesn’t get a pass mark from me.
He was however correct in that building wholesale sales is where the long-term money is, exactly as is the situation in most normal distribution channels. Wholesalers tend to make more profit than retailers.
As for the meetings, I suggest you do a comparison with other similar business meetings from other providers, even in completely different business arenas – they are not expensive at all, indeed they are quite cheap.
Bridgett,
I gave Tex average BSM incomes for N21, he simply dismissed them as lies. I’ve also explained the fact that profit=income-expenses but he refuses to acknowledge such a simple concept.
Tex on December 11th, 2008
Bridgett,
If the tool profit amount is small, relative to the Amway profit, it wouldn’t be “enticement.” The only way it could be considered “enticement” is if the amount was large compared to the Amway profit. You can’t have it both ways, reality doesn’t work like that.
I’m not looking for detailed tax returns, simply the rough amount made via tools by the typical P/E/D compared to Amway. It is NOT the same as the “critics” asking for detailed financial information with someone they have no business relationship with, it’s about our upline “business partners” and “teammates” being honest with the business model AND with money that leaves my pocket and goes into theirs. Night and day different.
Someone who won’t talk the facts with people they are scamming have a REASON for not talking, not just they don’t feel like it.
Just being simply honest, Bridgett. Unlike our upline LCK’s.
Tex on December 11th, 2008
ibofb,
You gave me numbers that were not sourced (I’m not saying they are false, but the numbers came from the same people who formerly claimed NO profit was being made on tools), and they were limited to only PART of the tool profit, I believe only the tapes/CD’s and books, NOT functions, web sites, voice mail, etc. You KNOW I consider any money that leaves my pocket and goes into the LCK’s pockets as the same tool scam. In your world, if they lowered the prices on CD’s but raised function costs to cover “speaking fees”, everything would be fine. Sorry, a dollar is a dollar, and however it leaves my pocket and causes secret profit is the SAME tool scam, you can’t put a fancy term such as “speaking fee” on it and say it’s okay. Especially when the upline STRONGLY implies upline/crossline IBO “leaders” are brought in and NOT paid. YOU ARE A LIAR. GO LIE SOMEWHERE ELSE.
The fact that profit=income-expenses is the whole basis of the tool scam, where have I disagreed with you on this issue? The ENTIRE point is the expenses are too high for IBO’s, and the resulting profit makes Amway the “shadow”, or “cover” business for the tool scam. YOU ARE COMPLETELY CONFUSED.
Brooke on December 11th, 2008
My sponsor did not say anything about a network twenty one handbook. He said he was teaching me the same vital information that the network twenty one leaders taught. I was constantly told that my lifeline to success was plugging into the network twenty one system and to attend all meetings. I did what I was taught but there was no progress and I realized that the time, money and effort was not going to produce what was advertised so I left the business. I don’t know about scam but Amway and Network twenty one are not “all that”.
Bridgett on December 11th, 2008
Tex,
Regardless of the amount, even 10% of their Amway income is a significant amount of money. It’s still enticement. What your former Diamonds made in the Amway business versus what WWDB Diamonds make are vastly different amounts–primarily because WWDB Diamonds’ focus is to build profitable Amway businesses, unlike your former Diamonds which was to sell BSMs.
Maybe you misunderstood me–my Upline, all of them, will and have answered any and every question I’ve ever asked them.
You, on the other hand, are not entitled to such a privilege.
Anonymous on December 11th, 2008
This was from another forum:
“Amway as an example is easy to get caught up in the hype but in the end many of their top producers don”t make much in Amway but make tons in the sale and marketing of their “Inspirational & Motivational Products” One of the Amway big wigs used to live up the hill from me in a multi million dollar mansion. Once you get to know him you find out all his money didn’t come from down line but rather speaking events, that he was paid to speak at. He actually made only 10% of his money from his down line (about $20k a year) and the support from that actually came from others putting people in for him and not the work he did himself. “
Tex on December 11th, 2008
Brooke,
Your sponsor sounds EXACTLY like sponsors from all of the other tool scamming groups. Gosh, what happened to “duplication” ibofb?
You can duplicate everything EXCEPT the tools!
Amway isn’t a scam, but Amway does allow the scammers to do their thing, at least in the U.S. The UK took care of the tool scam last year, I can’t wait for the next “British invasion” to happen over here.
Bridgett,
10% of Amway income may be a significant amount of money, but 10% CANNOT be considered an “enticement.”
Imagine a prospect saying, “Golly, the $100,000/year sounds great, but that $10,000 for tools is why I’m going to join.” Yeah, right. Read it again It doesn’t make any sense to call 10% an “enticement”, does it? Now, substitute a more realistic $200,000 and I agree.
Your upline may have answered every question you asked them, but did you ask them them how much tool profit they made (INCLUDING EVERYTHING YOU PAY FOR), and did they answer honestly? Until they come clean, they will continue to be LCK’s in my book.
I don’t need to be “entitled to such a privilege”, I’ll just keep calling a spade a spade, and people like Brooke will be all the wiser for it. I guess you missed my dysfunctional family analogy on #241, above.
Bridgett on December 11th, 2008
Tex,
It’s enticement at any amount because BSMs are OPTIONAL. If I show you the Amway Marketing Plan, and then I say, “And here is another business opportunity you can take a part of, and when you are a Platinum you will make X number of dollars, Emerald X number, and Diamond X number”, then I am enticing you to partake in building a business that is OPTIONAL and not a requirment to partake in building, with the Amway business.
You have the right to build the Amway Businessto whatever level you desire, REGARDLESS of your participation in the BSM business. So if I show you that there was money to be made in the BSM business, then that could be considered “enticing” you to participate.
And yes, they answered honestly. But again, you refuse to believe that. You didn’t believe my in Prague, why should you believe me now? Doing so would make you have to re-evaluate your characterization of my Upline.
Tex on December 11th, 2008
So you want to talk about tools being “OPTIONAL” again? Many, if not most, IBO’s are sponsored by someone they know and trust, and have never owned a business before. Couple these 2 facts with aggressive tool promotion, and you have a recipe for “OPTIONAL” being a farce. Then, when I left the standing tool order “club”, I was TOTALLY ignored by my upline. That is “OPTIONAL” in theory and name only, not to be confused with reality. Just read Brooke’s description of how “OPTIONAL” the tool system has been promoted to her, and she was in the “nicer” N21 tool scam system.
Actually, accreditation would permit me to participate in the tool scam without me having to make full use of it or promote it. This is one of the very limited benefits of the accreditation process, no more “good ‘ole boy network” that determines tool scam profit. THAT will be interesting….
Because you SAY they answered honestly means they DID answer honestly? What’s next, the tooth fairy? These are the SAME people who lied about not making any tool profit, why have they suddenly become honest? I don’t “refuse to believe” anything, I look for EVIDENCE of whether it appears to be honest. The silence over this issue from the LCK’s is deafening. I would be happy to look at their explanation and change my mind, but the LCK’s are too spineless and gutless to step forward. I guess you “forgot” the letter Jim Dornan had to withdraw related to the UK tool scam shutdown, and the restrictions regarding tool costs/amount of tools allowed in India and Russia.
By the way, if you’ve ever heard of Jack Stanley, I had a very interesting discussion with him today, and he agrees with what I’ve said regarding the tool scam.
thechaser on December 11th, 2008
we teach retail as well as network, and we are part of the IDA system. it doesn’t make any sense not to retail a little to produce some profit in the business.
I believe there is a place for the System, but I also understand where Tex is coming from in that they System has sucked a lot of the big diamonds to steer away from what AMWAY was about in the beginning. (moving products via a network marketing strategy and paying the best performers)
Brook, there is money in AMWAY when work is put in. Seminar are there to assist you but when there is no volume moving through your personal circle or the group no money will be made. Our platinums is about a 40 to 50 people group… balance teaching of retail and self consumption.
Tex, I can agree with you in some parts because I know of a couple of diamonds and emerald that have been more interested in the ‘tools money’ then the Amway money. This however not to say that there are no GOOD people building the AMWAY business with integrity;
Tex on December 11th, 2008
I’ve seen over and over “we teach retail”, but few state “we do retail”, and there is an obvious difference.
It doesn’t make sense to retail a little if all that happens is the profit gets sucked up into the LCKs’ back pockets in the form of excessive tool profit.
I also believe there is a place for the System, as a support system, not a secret and MA$$IVE profit center.
The System has not only sucked a lot of the big diamonds to steer away from what AMWAY was about in the beginning, but sucked a lot of dollars out of IBO’s pockets.
Seminars have dual purposes: one is to teach, motivate, inform, etc., and the other is to line the LCK’s pockets with tool scam profits. The solution is easy – lower the prices. Case closed.
There are FAR more than “a couple of diamonds and emeralds” interested in the tool scam money. Most of them hid this fact very well, until the internet came along.
Except for iteamusa.com and the “independents”, I can’t think of another group that isn’t operating a tool scam, at least in the U.S.
Getting back to the “enticement” topic, I consider it FAR more of an “enticement” (not to mention dishonest) to promote the Amway business and make multiple times more via the tool scam. Any IBO knowingly doing this is “enticing” a prospect into one business while being aware the real money is in the tool scam. Very simply, they are lying and ripping off the prospect. That situation makes the “optional tools enticement” issue Bridgett likes to twist around look like a Boy Scout helping an old lady across the street to earn a badge.
Tex on December 12th, 2008
Can somebody explain why it’s in the rules an undefined amount of profit is made on tools, there is “fine print” found in the Achieve magazine and other places that states some of the material success “may” have come from “other” sources, yet telling a prospect or IBO making 10% tool profit compared to Amway profit is considered an “enticement?” Anyone?
Tex on December 12th, 2008
Actually, the “some IBO’s make a [killing] profit on tools” is in the fine print of the application, not the rules. So, they “get” to see this one time, although I think it is also mentioned in the QU information once as well.
ibofightback on December 12th, 2008
anonymous Dec11 -
Clearly the “amway big wig” wasn’t much of a big wig, since 20K/year is less than the average *platinum* makes.
Brooke – the basics of the Network 21 strategy are outlined in the “System for Success” manual and 4 CDs, it is the main purchase recommended for new IBOs to learn the N21 system. You claim not to even know this existed. Clearly either you didn’t attend any meetings to research N21 and your sponsor clearly did an enormously bad job as well.
An alternative option, which I’m tending to, is that you are not who you claim and are most likely someone like JoeCool or Rocket, well known Amway critics on the internet who are known to create fake personas online and pretend to be new IBOs and/or prospects. Your comments to date are
exhibiting a complete lack of knowledge of how N21 operates.
The fact JoeCool has not entered this discussion as himself, when he usually does as he monitors my “name” on the ‘net, and that Brooke’s language and comments are very reminiscient of JoeCool is leading me to the conclusion that Brooke is probably JoeCool
Tex, (a) the numbers were all BSM, the sheet even included the ticket rebate schem (b) the source was an N21 executive and (c) please tell me which N21 executive (or diamond and above for that matter) has said there is no profit in tools? I’ve never heard it and when queried always heard there *was* profit.
ibofightback on December 12th, 2008
hmm, anonymous Dec 11 is probably JoeCool too, since he also like to cut and paste comments from other forums.
Mr Tlt on December 12th, 2008
The supposed tool scam from what I have experienced is nothing more than motivational cds. Tony robbins charges 40 bucks for 2 motivational cds and N21 cost about the same but instead of 2 cds you get 5 cds and you can can cancel anytime.
Amway provided the cash for the IBOs, N21 provides the education. Whats wrong with that. Tex I checked out the N21 cds on ebay I told or my mates about how cheap it is.
At amway you cannot fail if you follow and persist with the system you can only quit because it to hard.
Tex I get what ur sayin about the tools scam. over last weekend they were trying to sell the tools for a 2 dollar mark up. dosnt sound like much but I guess it adds up.
Mr Tlt on December 12th, 2008
To start up a franchise you have to borrow alot of money and basically spend the next 8 years tryin to pay off debt and thats when you break even. People are ok with that.
But when you present the AMWAY marketing plan people think its a scam. Ive seen people come from nothning and acheive emerald level.
unlike a traditional business there is no need to borrow money to buy stock. Your not fixed at a location and the best thing is free trips.
I have acheieved platnum in a space of 3 months and you know what. lucky i didnt take any free advise from my mate who are still working at their jobs bitchen how much it sucks. I deserve all the glory because I fight for my family and when I show the plan. Everyone that says no are either scared or dont care about their future.
I urge everyone to face their fears and give this business a try.
Its just another strategy and a vehicle at the end of the day.
Ps i did not have to go to the bank to borrow cash to fund this business. Did I mention that
Tex on December 12th, 2008
ibofb,
The “big wig” comment is EXACTLY what the tool scam is all about. These guys who hit a pin once, their groups fall apart, yet they are paraded on stage for YEARS as if they were still qualified. And who’s the wiser, because they are making MUCH more tool scam money than the average QUALIFIED pin wearer.
Whether Brooke is jc or not, it would be quite easy for N21 to ensure all their IBO’s have the information. Instead of selling a set of 4 CD’s, why not have the information available on the N21 web site for all to see, just like iteamusa.com does with their “no tool scam” statement. Did Jim Dornan have one, and Amway made him take it down, like his UK letter? LOL
If my recollection of our quick, in the hotel lobby, “top secret” red paper, folded up to hide most of the information, and sworn to secrecy “meeting” isn’t perfect, I think I can be “forgiven.” Have your N21 “source” tell me when is a good time to talk, I’m willing to be wrong in order to get the truth out in the open, I’ve said that many times. I’m not going to go back and find every claim of no tool profit from every LOS/LOA, it’s enough to know the prices are similar and N21 was slammed when the UK business blew up last year. I don’t care so much about who said what when where how why, I’m much more interested in what the real business model is, and N21 is as tight lipped as any of the other tool scammers. And again, the issue isn’t whether there is profit or not, the key is HOW MUCH profit. Is the tail (tool scam) wagging the dog (Amway)?
Mr Tlt,
Does Tony Robbins offer multiple CD’s every week? Books? Meetings? Voice mail? Web site? All of the above for profit? Does Tony promote one business, then make most of his profit at another? Huge difference. Keep in mind the tool markup is HUGE, and only the top tier gets the profit, unlike the Amway payout plan. Several bloggers who claim to have reached Platinum and above have stated you shouldn’t expect to make a net profit until about the Platinum level. Stop thinking ONLY of yourself and start thinking about the dozens of new IBO’s you will have to add, losing money, just for you to break even. It’s outrageous, especially since technology has allowed MUCH lower overhead costs.
CD’s on eBay are cheap, but that is only because the demand is low. If IBO’s were told to buy up the eBay CD’s, the upline would not only lose money and raise the question of why the CD’s cost so much to buy from upline, but the eBay price would rise as more IBO’s would bid for them.
I have no problem with the education CONTENT, that’s why I’ve purchased several thousand tapes/CD’s and hundreds of books. The problem is the education is coupled with MA$$IVE and secret profit.
Which business are you referring to above, Amway or poweronlinepublications?
Tex on December 13th, 2008
Can somebody explain why it’s in the rules (the application, more specifically) an undefined amount of profit is made on tools, there is “fine print” found in the Achieve magazine and other places that states some of the material success “may” have come from “other” sources, yet telling a prospect or IBO making 10% tool profit compared to Amway profit is considered an “enticement?” Anyone?
Bridgett on December 13th, 2008
For the record:
WWDB recognizes people by the pin at which they CURRENTLY qualify.
Tex on December 13th, 2008
That’s one small step in the right direction.
However, I prefer a 1-2 year “grace period”, to allow someone who drops out of a qualification to regain it before everyone knows about it.
Otherwise, the “chatter” from these minor and temporary setbacks isn’t productive.
Does this apply to all pins, or just a certain level and above?
Bridgett on December 13th, 2008
From my understanding WWDB has always only recognized people at the current pin level. This isn’t a new step for them.
Only Emeralds and above speak, so they’re the only ones people would know their pin level…well, I take that back…Platinums wear badges at functions. If they don’t have their badge, then aren’t currently qualified,
Tex on December 14th, 2008
I know the pin level of every IBO wearing a pin.
How about 1000, 2500, 4000, and Silver pins?
Also, by your answer, I assume there is no “grace period?”
The pin must come off the first month the qualification is not met?
Rahul on December 15th, 2008
Hmm well I am back.
As you all know I am not a pro Amway also after joining this forum I would say for those who want to try do at your own risk and dont expect to become rich overnight.
Tex – Don’t get me wrong but why dont you sue Amway , as you definately have a lot of evidence (at leat sue some Top IBO’s) you will make a lot of money.
Tex on December 16th, 2008
Rahul,
If I had the patience of waiting several years, perhaps decades, to work it through the courts, the 10′s to hundreds thousands of dollars or more to spend on lawyers, wasn’t prohibited from suing based on the contract, I would.
Meanwhile, I’m doing the best thing I have available, speak up about the LCK’s and the Amway company that approves of their unethical and immoral behavior.
Mr Tlt on December 17th, 2008
Look Tex my intention is to help out other IBOs to get to my level. Im not goin to applogise for being proud of my success. I could have easily given up in the first month I just went all out and had a go Along the way my upline did recommend me to buy tools. But I made a choice not to buy tools I have only been to seminars. Tex at the end of the day its just amway and just another vehcle I use. Im not goin to care about other IBOS only the ones I am helping to become Leaders and Exec leaders club if they are commited then I will help them, And I am talking about Amway. Tex I could have easily been detered from continuine with Amway. Im glad I have not been influenced by your submissions. I learnt alot about my self and I will not stop till I reach diamond. even if its a ten year plan its still better than a welfare plan.
Rahul your right you wont be rich over night. Like anything you have to work at hard. I did over 200 plans at the start I got 50 no’s at the start I did not care I just persisted. But the point is having the money replace your income so you can focus on what you want out of life. I volunteer my time at the nursing home helping the elderly with cash and presents.
I stop listening to my friends and family members along time ago because free advice is so dangerous to my financial plan.
Mr Tlt on December 17th, 2008
Tex with regards to tony robbins the seminars cost 1000 dollars to upwards of 15k so his cds cost 40 bucks you only get 2 a month. so you pay 5000 dollars to be at the front its called diamond package. for 2 out of the 4 days tony was not there he had a dvd from a past even. So yeah he is making a killing then in that seminar he is promotin all these other seminars that cost heaps of money. So you tell me Tex would you be out of pocket with Tony or Amway. At least with amway you can make money. But If i had the money I would go to all of tonys seminars.
Mr Tlt on December 18th, 2008
Another thing rahul whats the risk of Amway. Do you have to borrow capital to fund the amway businessso far I havent. The only thing have risked is my time for now .Do you think it only cost 100 dollars to buy a franchise why dont you deter people from doing a mac donalds franchise. WHATS THE RISK MAN?
I was duped in to comin to preview seminar. The sponsor told me ” hay there are guess speakers talkin about shares and property” What I failed to relise is that it was an Amway invitation to get me to the preview. When I found out it was Amway I was pissed but I got over it because I did my own research spoke to people that did amway. The ones that quit all told me it was not easy. I glad I didnt listen to them because I signed up the following week. You can not fail you can only quit. If you do nothing you wont get paid with any other job its the same thing.
Mr Tlt on December 18th, 2008
Tex Im not sorry man because I am doin this for my family and for people who are struggling out there. Im not making profit because I donate 50% of my cash bonuses to charity. I dont need the money but I think I have found a passion for helping people acheive financial success.
Tex on December 18th, 2008
Mr Tlt,
I never asked you to apologize for being proud of your success. I stated the LCK’s make most of their money via the tool scam. If you’re scamming others, you should be ashamed of yourself. If you’re not scamming others, no problem. Are the other IBO’s in your group buying the tools?
With respect to the Robbins seminars, there are tickets for FAR less than what you indicated for the Diamond level. Also, is Tony promoting one business and making most of his profit at another, like the LCK’s do? Just because Tony charges more, does that mean the LCK’s should keep scamming their downline? Two wrongs make a right?
The risk is most IBO’s get ripped off via a tool scamming, bait-and-switch opportunity scheme.
How many people are in your group, and how many are making a net profit?
.
Rahul on December 18th, 2008
Hmmm I must say Tex Mr Tlt sure has some points for all of us to ponder on.
As I stated before and the same thing Mr Tlt has expressed one needs to be sure of himself that can he do it then get into this business, else stay where he or she is.
I do agree it is not always one does some business or work to get money but like in Mr Tlt’s case to help others, which I do find is a noble cause.
Tex I understand your anger and frustration then people are scammed into becoming an IBO and I too was nearly a victim of it.
On this front I do agree with Tex that such slimy people should be exposed in broad daylight with their names and pictures posted on a dedicated website. Hmm may be someone can start such a website.
This will definitely deter such frauds from fooling people in joining Amway for all the wrong reasons.
For me Amway at this point does not make sense for following reasons -
- I am single so volume game does not apply to me.
- I like to change products, here I would be limited to few.
- I don’t want to force others to try what I am using , so as to increase the volume game. Let people try on their own will.
Tex on December 19th, 2008
Rahul,
Most people, and therefore most people getting started with Amway are not sure of themselves. When IBO’s are lied to (especially regarding the tool scam), it makes little difference whether they are “sure of themselves.”
Most of the LCK’s are already on the internet in names and pictures, but most prospects are shown the plan by an innocent IBO.
It would be a noble cause if he wasn’t part of the tool scam. He has some questions to answer to determine this.
Your personal consumption has little to do with a large business.
You like to change products, but if you’re getting paid to use certain ones, you should reconsider.
There is little chance you could “force” someone to try something, this makes no sense.
The “volume game” is what any business is all about.
ibofightback on December 19th, 2008
Rahul,
I don’t think any long-term successful business of any sort is based around “forcing others” to do or try anything. A succesful Amway business certainly isn’t.
Your first point “I am single so volume games does not apply” also shows a bit of a lack of understanding. What does being single have to do with it? A successful Amway business isn’t built on your volume and neither are the volume rebates/discounts. The networking strategy is about increasing wholesale sales volumes, not your own personal volume. Just like a guy who owns a computer store doesn’t pay full price for a computer, neither does an IBO, and as the computer stores volumes go up and wholesale prices get cheaper, the price the owner “pays” for his own computer stuff also gets cheaper.
But it’s not cheaper because of he bought computers in “volume” for himself, it’s because his business bought computers in volume to sell to others.
Thy on December 21st, 2008
Tex so Far I have almost reached my 4th month of Network 21 Amway I must say I dont feel any presure from my upline. I really dont get what you are talking about. But I have been buying tools. I know Tex that its a massive markup but I can claim in on my tax and Also with out the tools I dont think I would have had the confidence to approuch 120 people to have ago with amway.
Rahul as far as Im concern all you have done is provided me with a bunch of excuses of why this wont work for you. But you know what Rahul? I have faced my fears and concerns about this business and really its not that bad. Your given the training and support. The group I am with, emphasize on the fact we are not selling we are marketing (and no they are not the same thing) all I do is offer information if they want it good if they dont good its just a numbers game. And its not easy but I havnt lost any money only a bit of time.
Tlt on December 21st, 2008
Rahul while you are single it makes sense to build your financial intelligence and grow your assets via business,property and share vehicles. Do you want to be weak and rely on hand outs when you are 70 years old. If your happy have with an average life then continue be fearful and continue to make excuses as to why you are not acheiveing financial success(time wealthy). Me I want a great life, an unbelivable life and provide my mother first class tickets to go over seas. Time with my kids before they grow up.
Its hard for you to understand where I am coming from but Life short and I want to make sure when I die I am satisfied and content.
Tex is right about the massive markups but the tools work .
As far as Im concerned without the tools I dont think I would have been sucessfull. The way I see it is Amways paying for the tools not me. I just have to keep building this business to pay off the tools which cost 8 bucks a cd.
Tex on December 21st, 2008
Thy,
Most groups have more pressure, N21 is known as generally “softer” in selling, er, “marketing” the tools. The real issue isn’t one of pressure level, it is one of tool scam profit level. Nevertheless, I would expect the pressure to participate in the tools to grow as your business grows. Being able to claim your tool purchases on your taxes is only a partial benefit. If you didn’t pay as much for the tools, your net profit would still increase, even though your deductions are less. Being tax deductible yet providing the LCK’s with MA$$IVE tool profit is an empty victory. I have no issues with the tool CONTENT, that’s why I’ve purchased about 15,000 tapes/CD’s and hundreds of books over the past 3+ years, for pennies on the dollar.
Regarding your comment to Rahul, you’re not “given” the training and support. You buy them, and provide your upline several TIMES more tool profit than Amway profit, and they are probably not being honest about this issue, are they? Also, do you “market” (meaning actual sales, not attempts to sell) the products to non-IBO’s?
Porkchopjim on December 22nd, 2008
Tex,
Don’t forget to explain how after 15 years as an Amway distributor, you maxed out at 10 downline and 1000PV years ago…and also how you teach that you make a profit from buying your own products.
Go to the FTC website and search for ‘kingpin’ and see Tex’s letter begging Mr. DeVos for help starting his own tool kingdom!
It took Tex 12 years to figure out there was a ‘tool scam.’ Luke seemed to have figured it out right off.
Tlt on December 22nd, 2008
Tex
To be honest I really dont get your tool scam yes they are marked up. But unless you got some other alternative I will still have to keep buying tools from N21. At first I was a bit hesistent to buy tools because its easy to see cds cost 20 cents so between .20 and 8 dollars thats a big chunk.
Tex if my upline does not support me or mentor me through the process I would have quit and I would have given you a different view. But the fact is, its in there best intersest to keep supporting me till I am able to acheive my goal. So your wrong in that sense.
Well Tex with regards to the tool profit what can I do Im makin money from amway and I need to tools to keep me motivated. Yes Im sure they make heaps of profit but what can I do. I just have to keep making money.
Yes I use a marketing style of attracting members rather than using the presure sales tactics. If they thinks its a good idea then great. If they dont think its for them thats great to. Because at the start I was mainly spreading the word out there. 2 months ago I showed a plan to a work mate he told me “not for him” I said cool. 2 days ago he signed up because of all the results I have acheived. So I rather some sign up with certinty rather than doubt.
But Tex its pretty obivous that N21 was going to make a killing from the tool profits its seperate from Amway I saw that in the first week of joining. But I got over it now tallied my profit and my expenses on tools.
so far I have made 4600 in 4 months I have spent 160 bucks on tools Im not goin to focus on how much the LCKs gonna make I focusing on how much Im goin to make.
Wow you have over 15000 cds obviously you goin to go broke if you spent that much on cds or did you get them on Ebay
Tex on December 22nd, 2008
pcj,
How do you know what my PV level is currrently?
Of course you make a profit from buying your own products. You make even more profit by selling products to non-IBO’s and from the volume created by your donwlines’ personal and retail purchases. That’s how the business is openly marketed.
You need to take reading comprehension 101 if that’s what you got from the letter. Not only was that not the intent, Amway has been unable to follow their own written rules.
Luke and other prospects have the benefit of the internet and people like me educating them regarding the tool scam facts.
Tlt,
To be honest I really dont get your tool scam yes they are marked up. —- Then you do get it. It wouldn’t be a scam if your upline was honest about how much money they made from the tool profit markups.
But unless you got some other alternative I will still have to keep buying tools from N21. —- By rule, I’m not allowed to market an alternative to others. Howeer, there is nothing that prevents me from educating others about the tool scam.
At first I was a bit hesistent to buy tools because its easy to see cds cost 20 cents so between .20 and 8 dollars thats a big chunk. —- That’s the point. Your uplines’ actual cost is more like $1, with $7 markup for profit.
Tex if my upline does not support me or mentor me through the process I would have quit and I would have given you a different view. —- By rule, your upline is required to support and mentor you through the process regardless of whether you buy tools.
But the fact is, its in there best intersest to keep supporting me till I am able to acheive my goal. —- See what happens to your support if you don’t buy the tools.
So your wrong in that sense. —- No, you are wrong.
Well Tex with regards to the tool profit what can I do Im makin money from amway and I need to tools to keep me motivated. —- That’s the point, they have you and all of the other IBO’s “captured”, and you apparently are okay with it.
Yes Im sure they make heaps of profit but what can I do. —- You can be part of the effort to further expose the tool scam, or risk being slammed by your own government as happened in the UK last year. Do you really want to put in all that time, effort, and money and then see it disappear?
I just have to keep making money. —- That is exactly what your upline wants you to think is your only option.
Yes I use a marketing style of attracting members rather than using the presure sales tactics. —- Good, I agree with this.
If they thinks its a good idea then great. —- Many of them are checking out the internet and finding out your next statement is correct.
If they dont think its for them thats great to. —- No, it’s not. Why would you want to lose people that you could have if you didn’t have to?
Because at the start I was mainly spreading the word out there. —- Which “word” are you spreading? Were you even aware you were spreading the tool scam?
2 months ago I showed a plan to a work mate he told me “not for him” I said cool. —- Just because he wasn’t aware of the tool scam doesn’t mean there isn’t one. Ever hear of Bernie Madoff?
2 days ago he signed up because of all the results I have acheived. —- Too bad he didn’t visit my web site as well, rather than the “results” you “achieved.” What did you tell him about your “results?” What was your net profit (Amway profit minus tool and other overhead costs?)
So I rather some sign up with certinty rather than doubt. —- I would rather sign up using the facts.
But Tex its pretty obivous that N21 was going to make a killing from the tool profits its seperate from Amway I saw that in the first week of joining. —- Good, then you’re a good match for the others who are misleading people.
But I got over it now tallied my profit and my expenses on tools. —- This is a good thing.
so far I have made 4600 in 4 months I have spent 160 bucks on tools Im not goin to focus on how much the LCKs gonna make I focusing on how much Im goin to make. —- Your results are not typical, which means people in your group will probably not have similar profit/loss numbers. Were you loaned tools? Have the upline started promoting the functions more, to “help” get you to the next level? How about your other overhead costs? Travel? Meals? Motels?
Wow you have over 15000 cds obviously you goin to go broke if you spent that much on cds or did you get them on Ebay —- That’s CD’s and tapes combined, more tapes than CD’s. I got them on eBay and other online sources. We also use the tapes/CD’s in a “library” concept, borrow and return. This further enhances the cost/benefit ratio.
Tex on December 23rd, 2008
For those of you not familiar with the Madoff story, here is a link to my comments on this story, as well as the comment repeated below:
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=7395124008407193399&postID=3129294688711089896&page=1
Although not a Ponzi scheme, the Amway tool scam has several similarities to the Bernie (made off) Madoff story:
http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/article/145115/I-Knew-Bernie-Madoff-Was-Cheating–That‘s-Why-I-Invested-with-Him?tickers=^dji,&gspc,^ixic
I don’t know who the goons are in the video, but they obviously think Bernie’s Ponzi scheme is more funny than wrong.
It’s also instructive to note how many people were okay with what Bernie was doing, as long as THEY were making money. However, they didn’t realize it was a Ponzi scheme, they thought it was insider trading by Bernie, a former NASDAQ chairman. Both are illegal.
The apologetic IBO’s and Amway are also dead WRONG on the morality and ethics of the tool scam. As long as Amway is making money, they are okay with the tool scam. However, the UK government caught up with them last year. When will REAL men (and women) stand up and do the right thing in other countries?
If you want to brainstorm on how to accelerate corrective action, let me know, and we can talk by calling into the conference call number referenced a couple of threads below.
This sheds a completely new meaning on the term “Weekend with Bernie.”
Network 21 on December 23rd, 2008
It seems clear the tool business is where they make money. Makes you wonder why they bother trying so hard on the multi level marketing / pyramid amway front, when they could be totally honest and just sell motivational materials. The system in fundamentally flawed and bound to fail.
Porkchopjim on December 24th, 2008
I see Tex has decided that someone else’s blog is his own now – again.
No one reading your mono-blog? It’s just as successful as you are!
Of course you make a profit from buying your own products.
Of course you don’t, but you can’t seem to make your Amway business work without that lie.
How much would you have to sell your Amway business for in order to break even after 15 years? $25,000? $30,000?
Follow Tex – and after 15 years, you too could be $30,000 in the hole with his ‘valuable’ training system. An outdated system where he does not even know the content. 15 years of Amway training: volume equals money! More tapes/CDs MUST mean more money! Completely wrong, but remember – he’s making a profit selling things to himself!
Tex will follow up with a ‘my business is worth much more than that’ – but that wasn’t the question, was it? Nor will his answer be anything near the truth.
Tex on December 24th, 2008
Network 21,
You are correct regarding the tool scam being the source of most profits for the LCK’s and the source of net loss for most IBO’s. Also, Amway is needed as a “cover” for the tool scam.
pcj,
Welcome out of your slime hole, good to “chat” with you again.
There’s plenty of folks reading my blog, but thanks for asking.
We’ve been over your other issues many times before, but since this is a newer blog with new people, it is obvious an IBO doesn’t pay as much for products as a retail customer paying IBO cost, because of the PV/BV factor. As this is one source of profit, personal customers and downline IBO’s and their customers being the other sources, buying your own products is also obviously not the only or largest source of profit.
My Amway business isn’t for sale. How much was Bill Gates business worth when he was tinkering in a garage?
Follow pcj – but at your own risk, as he is clueless!
Let’s have that telephone call and clear this up!
pcj will follow up with a “I’m too scared to have anyone hear my whiny, wimpy voice” – but that wasn’t the question, was it? Nor will his answer be anything near the truth.
Porkchopjim on December 24th, 2008
Texie!
You’re not only the Amway Messiah, but also the self-proclaimed Bill Gates of Amway?
Only a 50 year old, 15 year failed Amway salesman could suffer such delusions(fail = $30,000+ business losses…hey – if you hadn’t spent all that money being stupid, you might have been able to afford a pool like your neighbors instead of having to drive the kids to the public pool)!
I’m not sure what sitemeter you’re checking, but there ain’t ‘plenty’ of people reading your rantings. Three per day, with you being two of the hits? That would be about the number of hits you get over 1 second. Like I said – just as successful as your Amway business!
You know the truth about your stupid ‘conference call’: first, you’re even dumber on the phone and second, trying to hide your idiocy through a ‘phone call’ is contrary to the Tex Transparency Initiative!
Keep up your good work, Texie! The tool scam is healthier than it ever was before you showed up and decided to ‘fix’ it here in the US.
ibofightback on December 24th, 2008
“network 21″, you are incorrect, at least with regards N21. You also have many other misleading statements on your blog. Is that why you don’t allow comments on your blog – don’t want the facts pointed out?
Tex on December 24th, 2008
pcjimmie!
You’re not only the Idiot Messiah, but also the self-proclaimed most famous bedpan changer?
You don’t have a clue whether I’m successful. I don’t drive my kids to the public pool, they walk there or the neighbors’ pools. I’ve never been that interested in a pool, the initial and resale costs, plus maintenance costs, aren’t attractive to me. Just like I said, you should stick with your bedpan changing “specialty.”
Here’s a snapshot of the site meter:
VISITS
Total 10,092
Average Per Day 16
Average Visit Length 1:15
Last Hour 3
Today 19
This Week 114
PAGE VIEWS
Total 18,717
Average Per Day 21
Average Per Visit 1.3
Last Hour 5
Today 36
This Week 150
More importantly, the content of the site is outstanding and without peer. Check out my recent discussion of PV/BV, for example. Of course, you don’t post there, which keeps the quality high all by itself! The shorter visits are probably automated programs, which means these visitors spend time looking at the site changes, which don’t show up in the statistics.
If I’m so stupid, you must be “stupider,” or you would call in just to make me look bad.
The tool scam is far from healthy in the U.S., just ask any LCK.
ibofb,
How would we know, LCK Jimbo Dornan is mum when it comes to how much he and his “leaders” make via the tool scam. You also have many other misleading statements on your blog. Is that why you don’t allow my comments on your blog – don’t want the facts pointed out?
Network 21 on December 24th, 2008
ibotfightback, comments are allowed, please try again. I welcome constructive criticism of my opinions.
Porkchopjim on December 25th, 2008
Texie,
You don’t have a clue that you are far from successful. All evidence to the contrary you claim you are – but we’ll chalk that up to your ‘valuable business tools’ that have taught you to lie to yourself and others. 15 years of unsupervised wandering in the Amway wilderness certainly has paid some huge dividends for you.
Whatever Texcuse you want to sell yourself for not being able to afford a pool is fine with me.
Good to see you’re just as capable of understanding site meter statistics as you are with every other reference you try to use. It’s not hard to bump your average visit lengths when your site get so few hits and you spend hours on it all by yourself (not to mention check it a number of times a day). It’s all you – the facts don’t lie!
More importantly, the content of the site is outstanding and without peer.
If druken monkeys were asked to comment on anything, I suppose you might have competition. Otherwise, it’s a rambling kook-laced exemplar of the mindset of those intellectually challenged few who think ‘tools’ are ‘valuable.’
The tool scam is far from healthy in the U.S., just ask any LCK.
Making stuff up again, I see. Now, I know you’ve cornered a significant segment of the ‘tool scam’ market away from the LCKs with your ‘used tool’ system, killing their profits…by one person – you – which is the entire population of your ‘training system.’
Your misplaced love affair with iTeam is another great example of your ego above your intellect: how much money is iTeam making from IBOs? You don’t know? Those profits not exposed? Consistently inconsistent.
So, other than Amway officially blessing the gobs of money IBOs are spending on useless junk – just how ‘unhealthy’ is the tool scam in the US?
Tex on December 25th, 2008
pcjimmie,
You don’t have a clue how successful I am. And, you’re too scared to make a simple phone call that could provide a clue.
It’s not a matter of being able to afford a pool, it’s whether that would be a priority for me.
But it is encouraging to see you spend enough time on my site to “anal-yze” (quite appropriate for a bedpan changer!) the statistics for your own twisted reasons. The facts don’t lie, but you do.
Try building a house without tools. Try practicing medicine without tools. Take your car to a repair shop that doesn’t use tools. LOL
Amway in North America has been flat for a dozen years or more. Factoring in inflation, this is a reduction. Don Wilson submitted a court statement stating his high water mark was 60,000 attending monthly seminars in 1995, and in times just prior to leaving was 10,000. My tool system isn’t designed to kill the LCK profits, it’s designed to provide a low overhead training system for the IBO’s in our group. You also have no idea of the size of our group. A simple phone call may clear this up, but you’re too scared to make the call.
There is far more content on iTeam’s site, at no extra cost, for $25/month, than any other site. I know of no other group with the statement of principles, including not making tool scam profit, or the commitment to lower the site price as people join. Maybe bedpan changers are more stupid than I thought….consistently stupid.
Amway is playing a losing game by allowing the tool scam to continue in the U.S. while stopping it in other countries.
Porkchopjim on December 25th, 2008
Seemed to have forgotten that I knew more than you thought I did. Still true. I don’t need to call anybody to know that. I don’t need to be exposed to any of your retardedness to check your web-stats, either.
You seem to be hung-up on having spent your children’s pool money on stupid Amway tools. Good. Are they all getting a big box of used tools for Christmas, too?
You’re not building a house, practicing medicine or fixing a car. You’re buying useless tapes and CDs from eBay thinking they’re your key to financial success.
Because 1 LCK lost tool business means the entire tool business is tanking? Assuming IBO numbers haven’t changed drastically, and that turn-over is constant…one LCK can go out of business just as another LCK is raking in loads of cash. If you weren’t so busy challenging people to retarded conference calls – that bit of sunshine might have struck you eventually.
And you’ve proven my point about iTeam and your idiotic devotion: you have no idea the amount of profit that is being made, nor if any commitment has been upheld. It is no doubt as successful as every other attempt to pull customers from dedicated tool systems – a failure. Like you!
Your group is the exact same size as the number of your many black friends that you call racist names in public.
Amway is not playing a losing game, idiot. They were ALREADY LOSING MONEY in the UK before you claimed to have ended the ‘tool scam’ there. If it were not for the ‘tools scam’ – Amway would have no business whatsoever.
Tex on December 26th, 2008
Seemed to have forgotten that I knew more than you thought I did. Still true. I don’t need to call anybody to know that. I don’t need to be exposed to any of your retardedness to check your web-stats, either. —- LOL I didn’t “forget” a thing about how much you know, or more accurately, don’t know. LOL!!! You don’t need to call because you’re too busy changing bedpans. LOL!!! You don’t even understand the web-stats, either!!! LOL!!!
You seem to be hung-up on having spent your children’s pool money on stupid Amway tools. Good. Are they all getting a big box of used tools for Christmas, too? —- You brought up the “pool money”, not me. LOL!!! No, I’m giving them the tools that still have the cellophane on them, so technically they are “new” tools!!! LOL!!!
You’re not building a house, practicing medicine or fixing a car. You’re buying useless tapes and CDs from eBay thinking they’re your key to financial success. —- The tapes and CD’s are only one key, there are many others, especially the TRUTH regarding the tool scam!!! LOL!!!
Because 1 LCK lost tool business means the entire tool business is tanking? Assuming IBO numbers haven’t changed drastically, and that turn-over is constant…one LCK can go out of business just as another LCK is raking in loads of cash. If you weren’t so busy challenging people to retarded conference calls – that bit of sunshine might have struck you eventually. —- The business has been flat in North America for a dozen plus years, which means it is going DOWN overall when inflation is considered. Not surprising considering the impact the internet is having on “advertising” the tool scam. You would be reminded of that on the conference call, retard. Put that sunshine where the sun doesn’t normally shine! LOL!!!
And you’ve proven my point about iTeam and your idiotic devotion: you have no idea the amount of profit that is being made, nor if any commitment has been upheld. It is no doubt as successful as every other attempt to pull customers from dedicated tool systems – a failure. Like you! —- I’ve proven they make much less than the other LCK’s. I’ve also talked directly with Brad Doyle on a number of occasions and am comfortable with his public and private statements. Let’s just say he is not well liked by the other LCK’s, but is secure enough not to have to be concerned. LOL!!!
Your group is the exact same size as the number of your many black friends that you call racist names in public. —- Not quite that big, but getting there!!! LOL!!!
Amway is not playing a losing game, idiot. They were ALREADY LOSING MONEY in the UK before you claimed to have ended the ‘tool scam’ there. If it were not for the ‘tools scam’ – Amway would have no business whatsoever. —- You just proved my point, Amway is playing a losing game, they were losing money in the UK prior to the tool scam being ended (by me, of course). Since the tool scam has ended in the UK, how could they still have business there? LOL!!!
P.S., you’ve really outdone yourself with this post pcjimmie!!! Thanks for the laughs, because you’re the joke!!! LOL!!!
AJ on December 26th, 2008
Just a note to Lauren, I had to take out a restraining order in order to get rid ofa persistant Amway rep who I had initally indicated interest too.
This didnt really help as I ended up disappearing interstate for a few years and it was only then that the calls stopped. Mt experience of the brief time I was involved was that unless you beleive in spending every waking moment chasing a materialistic houseful of magazine quality product you end up losing years of your life you could have spent in more momerable and less shallow ways. I have no objection to netwrok marketing, most businesses use at a minimun the idea of word of mouth in order to build their customer base, Amways just does that differently, Its the requirement to continually brainwash yourself with tapes I object to, CANT BE HEALTHY GUYS! In fact may damage you psychologically in ways that dont become apparent until years alter.
Tex on December 26th, 2008
AJ,
While I agree there are those who push Amway so hard they give themselves a lesser chance of growing their business and give Amway a bad name, not all IBO’s are like this. The main reason they do this is for a reason most of them are not even aware of, the tool scam. Click on my name for the tool scam facts.
An analogy is gravity: we knew jumping off a cliff was not a good idea long before gravity was “discovered.” For a similar reason, the business has to be pushed hard by some IBO’s to compensate for the tool scam, even though most IBO’s are still not aware the upline makes MUCH more from the tool scam than Amway.
Porkchopjim on December 27th, 2008
Texie,
Your answers are indeed very funny, but not for the reason you think. Do you ever get tired of not being in on the joke?
Porkchopjim on December 27th, 2008
Well, will you look at that! Sorry it took so long for me to get back to you, Texie, but it was CHRISTMAS after all – and as I just posted mid-morning actual time on 26 Dec…Tex has been busy trolling internet sites celebrating the birth of Christ!
Your family must be so proud of you! An exceptionally ‘Christian’ thing to be doing! Well done, Texie!
Tex on December 27th, 2008
pcjimmie,
Your answers are indeed very funny, but not for the reason you think. Do you ever get tired of being the joke? LOL!!!
You give yourself far too much credit for how much time I spend on blogs. I took a couple of brief breaks for a few good laughs. The tool scam hasn’t stopped, why should I? Jesus did “forbidden” things on the Sabbath, why shouldn’t I?
Porkchopjim on December 27th, 2008
A Texcuse for everything! Doesn’t change the fact that you’ve not only spent the money that you could have used to buy your kids a pool on useless tapes and CDs to make yourself feel powerful, you also robbed them of time during Christmas so you could chase your retarded impulses.
You seem to give your time spent on your mono-blog…including Christmas…all the credit for people ‘reading’ it.
Once again, you cannot respond without stealing someone else’s content. Why was it that it took so long for the “Amway is so simple even a retard like Tex can sign up 15 years in a row and lose over $30K” powerpoint brief? Right – stolen content. Shock!
So, not only do you claim to be the Amway Messiah, but the Bill Gates of Amway, and with all the authority of Christ himself? The second coming of Christ is a retard named Scott? Interesting…
Tex on December 28th, 2008
pcjimmie,
Why do you keep bringing up a pool? I’ve said over and over again I’ve never been interested in a pool. LOl
Those “useless” tapes and CD’s have been part of the reason why hundreds of IBO’s have achieved Diamond and above over the years. LOL
Also, I didn’t buy them to feel “powerful”, I bought them to assist me and others to build Amway businesses. LOL
You can post to “my” blog any time you want, but you’re too scared. LOL
YOU are the one with retarded impulses, you keep bringing up the same topics over and over again. You must have an attraction to repetitive activities, it sure helps you with your bedpan changing “profession.” LOL
Taking a few minutes out for a good laugh was time well spent, it helped keep me in a jovial mood. Plus, my family got a good laugh out of the joke that you are as well. LOL
“Stolen content” is encouraged in the Amway business, as long as you don’t cross the legal line. LOL
I never claimed to be Amway Messiah, the Bill Gates of Amway, or have the authority of Christ, but if that works for you, it’s okay with me! LOL
Porkchopjim on December 28th, 2008
I only asked why you decided to spend your money failing at Amway vs. buying your kids a pool so they don’t have to go to the public one. You’re the one who keeps floating excuses. One question – no answers. Your kids obviously enjoy it. I guess that’s just another example – along with trolling Amway blogs on Christmas – on how your family takes second place to your kookiness.
The Tex Transparency Initiative: showing Tex to be as good of a family man as he is an Amway business builder and tool scam ender!
Your useless ‘tools’ are what you HOPE helped people get to Diamond. You have no proof of that at all.
I know you did not ‘joke’ about me with your ‘family’ because I’m not the 50 year old failed Amway salesman who took 12 years to figure out there was a tool scam, and then filled your garage with even more useless tools because you’re not smart enough to know what they are, and spent hours on Christmas trolling Amway blogs because that is your entire life.
Being reminded of the failure you are keeps you jovial? It must.
And you’ve claimed all three of the ones you deny right here on this thread. Another great example of your Christian principals: lying.
Tex on December 28th, 2008
I only asked why you decided to spend your money failing at Amway vs. buying your kids a pool so they don’t have to go to the public one. You’re the one who keeps floating excuses. One question – no answers. Your kids obviously enjoy it. I guess that’s just another example – along with trolling Amway blogs on Christmas – on how your family takes second place to your kookiness. —- I said they enjoy the public pool and friends’ pools, and I’m not interested in spending the money for a pool and the maintenance. That’s not an excuse, that’s an answer. My kids don’t mind, why don’t you mind your own (bedpan) business? Do you think everyone who doesn’t have a pool and/or spends a few minutes on Christmas making you look like the idiot you are, kooky? LOL!!!
The Tex Transparency Initiative: showing Tex to be as good of a family man as he is an Amway business builder and tool scam ender! —- The pcj Idiot Initiative: showing pcjimmie to be as good of a bedpan changer as he is a dork!!! LOL!!!
Your useless ‘tools’ are what you HOPE helped people get to Diamond. You have no proof of that at all. —- There are many more Diamonds that use the tools than those that don’t, just like there are many more house builders that use tools than those that don’t. Using tools is just common sense – which is why you don’t get it! LOL!!!
I know you did not ‘joke’ about me with your ‘family’ because I’m not the 50 year old failed Amway salesman who took 12 years to figure out there was a tool scam, and then filled your garage with even more useless tools because you’re not smart enough to know what they are, and spent hours on Christmas trolling Amway blogs because that is your entire life. —- I’m far from being alone in getting ripped off for a long period of time. But YOU are in a league of your own for being a complete and total IDIOT. LOL!!! By the way, the tools aren’t in my garage, there’s too many of them and I keep them in the air conditioned areas of my home. LOL!!! I spent minutes, not hours on Christmas “trolling” for IDIOTS, and caught you hook, link, and sinker!!! LOL!!!
Being reminded of the failure you are keeps you jovial? It must. —- Being reminded of you makes me jovial I’m NOT you. It does. LOL!!!
And you’ve claimed all three of the ones you deny right here on this thread. Another great example of your Christian principals: lying. —- I wasn’t lying, I was using those as analogies, which flew over your head like a full bedpan slinging crap all over the room!!! LOL
Tex on December 28th, 2008
pcjimmie,
You know the best part of our exchanges?
I can explain myself to our prospects and IBO’s, and you can do NOTHING to interject.
There are at least hundreds, probably thousands, of exhanges between us, plus many others, such as ibofb, Bridgett, rocket, etc., all permanently recorded for my use.
How does it feel not only being the joke, but part of my system, and used to explain the fallacies of the critics and misinformed IBO’s?
LOL-LOL-LOL-LOL-LOL-LOL-LOL-LOL-LOL-LOL-LOL-LOL-LOL-LOL-LOL-LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Porkchopjim on December 29th, 2008
Hey Texie,
That ‘sharing my post with your family on Christmas Day for a laugh’ is almost as bad of a lie as your ‘black friends’ one. How long has your family left you? I wondered when that was going to happen, and when you’re stuck trolling Amway posts like insider on Christmas, that’s all the proof I need.
Because, here’s how it would have happened if you ‘shared’ like you said you did:
Family Member 1 (FM1): Where’s Scott (Tex)?
Family Member 2 (FM2): Guess.
FM1: On the computer?
FM2: Yup.
FM1: You’re kidding me.
FM2: Nope.
FM1: On Christmas?
FM2: Go see for yourself.
(FM2 and FM1 go to find Tex.)
FM2: Hey, idiot, don’t you know it’s Christmas?
Tex: Oh, hi! You showed up just in time! I want to share this with you – this loser called Porkchop…I’m about to slam him!
FM2: Let me see. Wow. That guy IS a loser. Says he’s 50 years old, been in Amway for 15 years and has lost upwards of $35K, never had more than 10 downline, has NO downline now (because if he did, he’d be able to get help from his upline for them – Oops!), took him 12 years to figure out he was being scammed. Plus, he’s taken to buying truckloads of useless ‘Amway tools’ to start some kind of empire? Amazing! Let him have it, Tex!
FM1: Um – no, that’s not Porkchop. That’s Tex.
FM2: You’re kidding me.
FM1: Nope.
FM2: Amazing.
FM1: Yup. Tex is even worse at this than he was at Amway – and that’s saying something.
Tex: Shut up. You don’t know. I’m an important person.
FM2: Really? I’m not seeing it.
Tex: I’m behind the scenes important.
FM2: Oh, that’s what you’re calling it. You do this all the time?
Tex: Yes.
FM1: What’s in all the boxes in the garage, Tex?
Tex: My future and my power.
FM1 and FM2: You need help.
The hundreds, if not thousands, of exchanges serve the superb purpose of displaying to all what an idiot you are, and that your influence and success is only in your head.
That would be why you’ve tried to keep your Tex identity a secret from your ‘group’ – even though your ‘group’ exists again only in your imagination.
Mr Tlt on December 29th, 2008
I am totally sold out to the amway business I beleive if you gonna start a business you may as well do a business endorsed by R.kiosaki
Tex on December 29th, 2008
pcjimmie,
There’s only a couple of problems with your “logic”:
1. The family is already aware of the overall strategy and the reasons behind the strategy and schedule, and
2. You obviously don’t read for comprehension, as I’ve already stated the tools are NOT stored in the garage and the reasons why.
Other than that, your fairy tale should have started with “Once upon a time….”, because it has NOTHING in common with reality. But thanks for another example of your IDIOCY.
LOL-LOL-LOL-LOL-LOL-LOL-LOL-LOL-LOL-LOL-LOL-LOL-LOL-LOL-LOL-LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mr. Tlt,
I wonder what Robert K. would say about the asset/liability process and overall business model of the LCK tool scams.
george rahme on December 29th, 2008
Hey there everyone
my name is George, im involved in Amway and the system i use is n21.
im a platinum in the business and i know it works. i dont know how ida work or other systems but i have heard different things.
Im building the business as an asset based not for quick money ive always been told it take 20 yrs to build any thing great look at Bryan Adams he was playing in a bar for 10 yrs before he got recognized.
Alot of the cds i listen to talk about people being ready to join and not to push people, because to be honest when you push them they do nothing anyway.
I have done alot of business and property seminars and did alot of calculations as to what it would take to really make money and to be honest network marketing is a great way to earn money, i know of a few people in amway that had platinum pin levels and don’t talk on stage no more or get recognized because there business didn’t sustain its self.
i love n21 because it teaches you how to leverage you time and money, in my opinion if Amway is illegal or dumb or stupid then same with mcdonalds or any other form or franchising company. i understand there are alot of people who over promise and under deliver and i think its pathetic and its puts our business down but you never see them on stage. and trust me i know from my personal experience to go platinum emerald or diamond is a hard game and it requires alot of consistent work (not hard work) in my opinion. i now have 4 qualifying legs one is a 21% 2 are at 15% and one is at 9%. the point of the business is to go deep and wide deep shows security and width shows profitability. the business makes logical sense but with any business it requires 2 things work and relationships developing them.
as to for the tools business as a diamond your earning average 130k per year from Amway thats what i teach i know for a fact that you make little commissions from the tools and i dont see the big deal i make money from them i get commission from group but when i show the marketing plan i tell them you can make this much from amway not from the tools and i dont like to over promise as a platinum from my amway business im earing about ote of 50k add 10k with the tools so thats 60k but if people ask me how much does amway pay me well its confidential but i tell them 50k. who ever tells you that you cant make money from the tools is a liar, but if you think that amway doesn’t pay up and you cant make money from it then theres a problem
what im trying to say being with n21 we dont try to scam people thats why we are the fastest growing and steadily because people feel it. it hurts me to see that ida bww and so forth do these lies i know i have heaps of people in my group who have come from those organizations apparently they keep you in the room listening for like 12 hours or some thing like that. now thats stupid at n21 we dont do that we wana do this business professionally as it should be a little personal growth and teaching on the way is harmless but it should be the business because at the end of the day we get paid from Amway thats we here the money should be.
one quote i love is by john paul getty i used to read it every day before i joined the business i would prefer to have 100 people give me 1% effort then me needing to do my own. amway stats show that only 15% of people who join are shoppers thats all. you only need a few good people in the team who are teachable ambitious and wont give up to have a team going. people got to understand that not everyone is going to this. i love the business i love what its done for me and my fiance we couldn’t read or write properly, we taught ourselves we are closer now through the books and to be honest the environment is great, im a catholic and i once went ot a hill song church thing and it freaked me out now thats a cult, what i felt from a n21 conference was a great environment thats safe, and helps you get going
Porkchopjim on December 30th, 2008
Texie,
I’m glad your ‘family’ knew that part of your ‘strategy’ was to be trolling Amway sites on Christmas.
Step one: discover there is a tools scam. Schedule: 12 years.
Step two: buy as many scam tools as possible. Schedule: ongoing.
Step three: have the ‘new stacking’ technique make me a Platinum because after 15 years I’ve scared away all my downline. Schedule: derailed.
Step four: Go from a quoted ‘Amway Expert’ to being called (and proven) an idiot and a liar on every site (ala QIAC). Schedule: ongoing, but great success up to this point.
Step five: Cheat on taxes. Again. Schedule: ongoing.
Don’t forget – this is a permanent record that you seem to be proud of!
Mr. Rahme – you’re speaking a language Tex doesn’t understand: Amway success. He’s only hit 1000PV years ago during his 15 year career. But, rest assured, he’s out here representing those dedicated Amway distributors like no one I’ve ever seen before.
Tex on December 30th, 2008
pcjimmie,
I’m glad you’re glad. Now get a clue.
There are IBO’s who have been in the business more than 12 years and haven’t figured it out yet. Even the ones who found out in a shorter period of time got ripped off by the LCK’s. The more recent ones had the benefit of the internet to help them with additional information (all due to me, of course).
Why would I NOT buy tools for pennies on the dollar?
A stacking technique wouldn’t make me Platinum, just Silver. But thanks for exposing your IDIOCY, again!!!
You have “proven” nothing, except being fodder for me.
Don’t forget – this is a permanent record your are clearly clueless about!
george rahme on December 30th, 2008
The stacking technique is from ida which doesn’t work because its not duplicative and is so confusing.
The reason why i joined amway was because of n21 im a man of systems, i knew that no matter what that if i could follow the steps (from n21) do them then teach them i wouldn’t have an issue, because of this my business keeps growing with out me now that doesn’t mean i can just leave i have been taught that a leg isnt secured until its at least has three platinums in there or its an emerald leg with vital signs, and what attracted me even more, our vital signs arnt based just on whos listening to cds and who is attending the functions, because you can have a bunch of monkeys turn up to functions, what we teach as well as to who is building showing the plan so fourth.
i know how easy it is to manipulate people into believing that amway is a scam and honestly if people did there research properly they would know how great amway is, but understand its just not about amway any more im more than honored to be using there products but what separates us from every one else including other amway los and that n21 its the greatest system i have ever seen
that allows you to grow, duplicate and leverage yourself.
and to be honest those people that couldn’t make it work well its because of the system there involved in some people may work but most cant, thats not the catch with n21 system if you follow it properly any one can do it and make money , i remember my business coach (not my up line) telling me that a business becomes successful not because of product built because of the system mcdonalds dont make the best burgers in the world but are one of the biggest why? because they have a system where a 15yr old can run it they have replaced them selves over and over again and thats what we do with n21 by following the steps of pacesetter, leaders club, elc, 21% the platinum, and then theres certain networking skills you need to develop to maintain clientèle’s etc
who ever tells you that you dont sell is full of crap, i always teach this to my team don’t pay for the business out of your pocket let it pay for its self, so i teach artistries, nutritional assessments etc and honestly all my leadership dont pay for the functions, or cds (maybe a little) and by the time it gets bigger your earning a certain amount from the business any way .
the business is paying for me and my fiances wedding im lebanese and we have 600ppl attending its not paying for everything but lets just say its paying for alot more than half, both our fathers are dead and so we did it ourselves and we can because of the business, so all you people who keep mocking it get a life grow up your just missing the boat and for every one else who listens your just as worse and dont desrve to be successful in anything because if you keep taking the opion of others you wont get any where, that was a harsh lesson i had to learn i was so vulnerable to people opions and once i got over that bit, i was ok.
it the business making me heaps yet millions? no will it ? yes eventually. rememeber it take 20 yrs before you buld anything great bbut it will take at least 7 yrs to create a stable 6 figure in the business but from what i have seen and experiemnced once you get to that point theres no stopping it
thechaser on December 30th, 2008
Hi George:
Great to hear the success you are having, that way you are structured you should be hitting Ruby bonus pretty soon and thats a NICE check if you have a nice structure.
Just to correct something, IDA don’t actually teach Stacking; I believe it was taught in on of the N21 groups but have since been rectified as Jim Dornan have stopped it from happening. I believe they call it “pipline” which is a little similar to TEAM.
We always teach Width and Depth. Width fro profit and Depth for Security. And for those who don’t think there is money in the plan.
One of our platiniums made $110K in the year they qualified, mind you they had Ruby side volume but have not yet qualified… and that ALL Amway money including bonuses… when they hit Ruby they made a solid $8K to $9K a month.. no bonues…. ALL Amway money.
When they qualified Emerald, they made about $240K in that year including bonuses, ALL Amway money.
For Tex, their Tool money is about $2k to $3K a month as an emerald because they buy a lot of tools and lend them to downlines..
one of the biggest Ruby checks (bonus) I have heard is about $89K for that month… they were seriously wide… they had pictures taken because they were presented with the check at the corp.
So I guess there is money if you structure is correctly…. All our new guys are taught to go 6 wide and 1 deep with 4 of the 6 personals ASAP. (usually in 30 to 60 days.).. its pretty cool…
thechaser on December 30th, 2008
Hi George,
Its interesting to read what you wrote because very similar to what I was taught in the IDA system.
What is interesting is that I think even within the IDA system there are people who would build the business differently.
I personally do XS and Artistry in retail and teach 300PV circles… and leg is definately not secured until its platinum backed by a platinum and a platinum. We alway teach to go emerald with 4 Q12 and Diamond with 7 Q12 legs.
I am a good friend with a double diamond in Oz and it not too different but there have definately been crooked people making empty promises. Thats why my coach has always encouraged personal growth.
Your business will only grow as far and as fast as your personal growth capacity.
Tex on December 30th, 2008
George,
I understand you live in Australia, correct?
thechaser,
Is the $2-3k/month tool money their net tool profit, after paying for the tools they lend to downline? Does it include “speaking fees?”
Your examples appear to be the extreme examples, not the typical results. This is similar (though at the opposite end of the spectrum) as talking about IBO’s who don’t do anything then complain the business doesn’t work.
How does personal growth overcome crooked people, other than distracting you from the “crookedness?”
Tex on December 30th, 2008
Rather than lending out tools, why not just reduce tool prices? This would produce a similar result.
Porkchopjim on December 30th, 2008
Texie,
Your vision of ‘stacking’ is only true IF you are the only one that is being stacked. Thanks for, again, showing that you really don’t understand the Amway business. After 15 years, if you don’t understand it, I guess it’s not either the ‘tool prices’ or the ‘system’ that’s broken.
You also seemed to have forgotten that most Amway salesmen in business over 12 years have gotten past 1000PV.
Why wouldn’t you buy tools for pennies on the dollar? Because that would be smart not to buy them – which is why you do. The LCKs, which make most of their money (according to you) from from tools, tell you that you need the tools to sell them to you…and you believe them. Good job. When people are sold something useless, it’s not a bargain to buy lots of it at a cheaper price – it’s foolish. Real suckers are paying $500 an ounce for fool’s gold…Tex is only paying $50 an ounce. The real price is $8 a POUND. That’s why – again.
Give us another namecalling screed, will you? Thanks!
Tex on December 31st, 2008
pcjimmie,
The upline typically doesn’t stack more than one leg for any given IBO. They may stack multiple legs, but not more than one of mine. Thanks for, again, showing that you really don’t understand the Amway business. After many years, if you don’t understand it, I guess it’s not either the “tool prices” or the “system” that’s broken, you simply drank too much of your bedpan contents! LOL
You also seemed to have forgotten that most Amway salesman don’t last 12 years, and there are many who did that never got past 1,000 PV. The ones that lasted less than 12 years got ripped off, just not as long as those who were involved longer.
If you don’t value the tools, so be it. You would also prefer to build a house by pounding the nails in with your thick skull rather than using a hammer! LOL
Porkchopjim on December 31st, 2008
The upline typically doesn’t stack more than one leg for any given IBO. They may stack multiple legs, but not more than one of mine.
If that were true, then the ‘new stacking technique’ would only produce silvers – which is not the truth, is it? You have to lie all the time to try to be right? You contradict yourself and admit that they’d stack more than one leg. It’s not my fault that it’s a stupid idea that you fell in love with because you thought you might finally get the downline that you were unable to build yourself. It’s not my fault that you’d have to rely on someone else’s work to build ‘your’ business. It’s not my fault that you’d be at the mercy of someone else placing your downline. It’s not my fault that you seem to realize you wouldn’t be smart of strong enough to ensure your ‘business’ was structured correctly.
I guess it’s not either the “tool prices” or the “system” that’s broken,
Newsflash: it’s you that’s broken, Texie.
You also seemed to have forgotten that most Amway salesman don’t last 12 years, and there are many who did that never got past 1,000 PV.
Newsflash: That would only be you again, Texie! 15 years and never got past 1,000PV. You should get special recognition for that!
If you don’t value the tools, so be it. You would also prefer to build a house by pounding the nails in with your thick skull rather than using a hammer!
If you want to spend all your money and time on tools that don’t do anything except make upline money…that’s fine by me. You buying them second-hand has at least benefited the poor sap who paid full price for them. But in your hands, they are useless – like you!
Having the correct ‘tools’ is necessary. Buying everything that someone else has called a ‘tool’ is idiotic. The ‘tools’ you have are to keep IBOs spending money on a system. They have nothing to do with building any sort of Amway business. That’s why no one who actually has a real business sees any value in them: there is none outside of selling more tools. All you’ve done is buy a bunch of garbage and you are too stupid to realize that.
All part of the permanent record. And thanks for the namecalling screed I predicted!
Tex on January 1st, 2009
It’s not my fault…It’s not my fault…It’s not my fault…You’re stupid! The upline can stack 3 separate legs of their own and be an Emerald. Each leg is a Silver leg unless someone in the legs builds enough width to be a Platinum. LOL
Newsflash: it’s you that’s broken, pcjimmie. LOL
You have no clue whether I’ve gotten past 1,000 PV. You should get special recognition for that! LOL
If you don’t want to spend some of your money and time on tools that don’t do anything your hard skull can’t do…that’s fine by me. You using your head to pound in nails has at least benefited the poor sap who is looking for cheap entertainment. But(t) with your head, the nails get nowhere – like you! LOL
Having the correct ‘tools’ is necessary. Buying everything that someone else has called a ‘tool’ for pennies on the dollar, with a “checkout” system to further reduce cost, is brilliant. The ‘tools’ I have are to keep IBOs spending money on self and retail purchases, rather than feeding the uplines’ tool scam. Tools have everything to do with building an Amway business by multiplying our time effectiveness. That’s why everyoneone who actually has a real, non-bedpan changing job sees value in them. All you’ve done is typed a bunch of garbage and you are too stupid to realize that. LOL
Mr Tlt on January 1st, 2009
Tex I really dont care what you say your negativity aint goin to touch me. What the hell are talking about mate. I havent had to go to the bank to apply for a loan like the traditional franchise. So wheres the risk man. You keep goin on about this tool scam right? but I dont get why you couldnt just say no to buying heaps of tools.
Robert does endorse network 21. I would rather buy tools and get empowered, educated and learn how to make money rather than goin to university.
You know whats a bigger scam tex university tex books that are presured upon by lecters they are heavily overmarked and in some cases the lectures own the rights to the book
why dont you accuse them because Universites make a shit load of money text book scams and the students dont make any money until they finish school. Why not accuse the financal planning industry they sell commionsioined based products and get massive kick backs right, they have no agenda of making me rich. There are far more worse things out there then amway and Network 21
Mr Tlt on January 1st, 2009
Because Ive seen success I met up with the crown abasitors they are the nices people I have ever me they just tell me to keep fighting for my dreams
george rahme on January 1st, 2009
Mr tlt i agree with you 100%, people always need to justify there failure and why there not successful, and blame everything under the sun, i looked at a study done by a company, the study was done by the average success rate it was done by jeff olson he wrote a book named the slight edge one the greatest books i have ever read and i got it through n21 (what a concept) any way he interviewed people that had ever gone for some goal or dream and quit not failed and interviewed people who were successful in the same time period, 95% of people that failed 5 yrs down the track not thing had changed and were still having the same stinking attitude blaming every one for there problems etc the other 5% became successful in other ventures because they looks the lessons and tried again.
another study on mlm shows that every one that gave up or failed were for the following reasons
1 didn’t get good at relationships and tried using tools to get prospects like the internet which works to an extent but no matter what what will always be the leader of building wealth is building relationships
2 they were not teachable did not follow the system tried to add things that didnt work
3 wernt consistent
now you speak to those people and there attitudes are still the same
people must understand in order to make things work yo need to become a person that works e.g. you alwys here people say when this gets better i will or when i get this i will no it starts now.
my upline always taught me this ingrid kent that its not about being a diamond its about being a diamond, what she meant was this, that if in order to be a diamond you mind set attitude, needs to be diamond first and then going diamond is easy. you see my goals is to go emerald and i was told to wait why? because George isnt an emerald yet and i have been given some personal time with double diamonds Glenda Leonard to help me prepare for me. iloved that why because they dont want me going emerald and then not loosing it and never re qualifying they want to have a strong business thats gona keep growing
so go out and hang read and listen to people who have what you want. all these guys online are gonna loose people are opening up there minds and people that believe them don’t deserve to have the freedom they want.
and like i said in each team you only need 5 good people thats it, so imagine you showed 30 plans a month and only found one good one a month 18months later you will be an emerald 2 yrs later you will be a diamond like hello thats better than any other compensation plan that i have seen
thechaser on January 1st, 2009
Mr Tlt and George;
good on you both for doing what you are doing, I have come to realise one thing; there will always be those who will never understand the business and there will always be those who thinks they know and don’t want to do it and there will always be those who will jump at the opp.
My sponsor and upline diamond and a good friend (cross line double diamond) have all said your business won’t grow and sustain unless we individuals have the capacity to grow it and sustain it.
Tex has a reason to be doing what he is doing, and to a certain degree I actually understand why. The Tool scam has been around for years and there have been many diamond that has taken huge advantages of ths influence they have.
What we alson need to also realise is that what one experience is truth to that person yet may not be truth to the other simply because they are dealing with different people.
Amway is global business and it would never fall over because its strong financial status. The various TOOLs orgs are PEOPLE, they are humans running a business, some good and some may not so good.
My advice to all looking into the business is to find someone they are comfortable with run the business like a business. There is profit and lose, which means if you are not profitable early and are not teaching that then its likely your business won’t grow.
Larry Winters said this ‘you sometimes has to go slow to accelerate’; build the relationships and follow through correctly then you will see great growth.
I just met up with a diamond who has a massive business in Europe and have always taught to have QUALITY follow through and spend time with people. They just broke 30 silvers last 30 days and will have 2 emerald coming through… pretty exciting.
So I guess the business works, and I do agree with Tex to a point that perhaps it should be careful look at the pricing structure in the Tools; I believe some organisations are definately changing that. I know ours are changing and I found out what some other organisations were spending, and its way more then what I spend. Thats why I know where Tex may be coming from, just have not experienced it myself.
George, I will be looking forward to seeing you in Tokyo and congratulate you as you cross stage as a new Emerald…
Mr Tlt on January 2nd, 2009
Thanks thechaser I cant wait to go platnum man Im still tryin to build volume but im silver at least cant wait to go platnum.
Mr Tlt on January 2nd, 2009
Hay George its great to have someone talking positive about the amway business. It just seems there are alot of people who allow doubt and fear to control their decision. Usually these people would borrow money to buy their fancy cars. Thats a debt paying lifestyle strategy where they may look rich but usully have to spend the next 5 to ten years paying of their debts.
I thought Amway was a scam to but it actully rewards people who want to change their lives, face their fears.
Tex on January 2nd, 2009
Tex I really dont care what you say your negativity aint goin to touch me. What the hell are talking about mate. I havent had to go to the bank to apply for a loan like the traditional franchise. So wheres the risk man. You keep goin on about this tool scam right? but I dont get why you couldnt just say no to buying heaps of tools. —- I’m not “negative”, just telling you the facts. The Amway business is a “front” for where the BIG money is made, the tool scam. Don’t expect to go net positive on profit if you follow a system and can get several dozen new IBO’s in your group who are operating at a net loss. That’s the “beauty” of the tool scam. It’s a slow bleed.
Robert does endorse network 21. I would rather buy tools and get empowered, educated and learn how to make money rather than goin to university. —- You should have Robert K. give you a cashflow analysis of the Amway/tool business.
You know whats a bigger scam tex university tex books that are presured upon by lecters they are heavily overmarked and in some cases the lectures own the rights to the book —- Then sue the university.
why dont you accuse them because Universites make a shit load of money text book scams and the students dont make any money until they finish school. —- Because I don’t consider this a scam, as all of the basic facts are well known and Amway tool scams are a big enough challenge.
Why not accuse the financal planning industry they sell commionsioined based products and get massive kick backs right, they have no agenda of making me rich. —- See above.
There are far more worse things out there then amway and Network 21 —- That’s your opinion. Even if true, does that mean two wrongs make a right?
Tex on January 2nd, 2009
Because Ive seen success I met up with the crown abasitors they are the nices people I have ever me they just tell me to keep fighting for my dreams —- And they are rolling over in laughter, they caught you hook, line, and sinker.
Tex on January 2nd, 2009
thechaser,
Thanks for recognizing the tool scam facts.
george rahme on January 2nd, 2009
Hey thechaser you seem great thanks man and to mr tlt mate you go for it, you can go platinum and beyond, mate well done. As for tools scams i understand there have been diamonds who have taken advantage etc ok we get that, but where are they now most of them arnt even receiving checks any more, and i know its not as bad as what every one thinks because there still getting good value for money i have been to personla development courses where i spent 10 k on weekend thats nearly 18 months for me on tools and yes i do spend that much if not more, you see i dont encourage any one in my group to buy tool either i warn them and tell them, because if there not showing the plan or out there then theres no point unless there doing for there personal growth. all these idiots online there time is up people are starting to realise there a bunch of thumbsuckers looking for some thing to do and you know what thats a cult isnt it? they have many different followers taking the advice and listening? lol thsi stuff reminds me of the matrix lol all these guys are brainwashed to be that there is only a certain way of life where as us neo etc we break and fight for our freedom and then you get idiots like Luke or these guys online who try to stop it why? because then they dont have power they dont have recognition how many people think of these guy of gods or something for saving there lives from the eveil yeh right tere just a bunch of thumb sucking idiots that need to get a life and let people live there own
take care thechaser ,tex, and mr tlt
Tex on January 2nd, 2009
george,
I believe you are behaving in a tiny minority.
You would have been shut down in the UK in 2007, even though you weren’t scamming anyone. Think about it.
Porkchopjim on January 2nd, 2009
Buying everything that someone else has called a ‘tool’ for pennies on the dollar, with a “checkout” system to further reduce cost, is brilliant.
That ‘someone else’ was the LCK that was selling them in the first place. No one else who has a real business actually thinks they are ‘tools’ or worth anything. I actually think that wasting all your money on used tools and filling your house with them is quite brilliant!
I am glad that you admitted you were wrong with your ‘stacking’ description.
Tex on January 2nd, 2009
The LCK’s have a “real business”, or they wouldn’t have been given their original Amway pins for various volume levels. LOL!!!
I actually think that wasting all your money on used bedpans and filling your house with crap is quite brilliant! LOL!!!
I have never been wrong about my stacking description, YOU just couldn’t understand it until I pounded it into your nail driving skull several times. LOL!!!
Mr Tlt on January 3rd, 2009
Yeah Tex keep on with that synical atitude Ive now in the final stages of becoming a full time parent.
Porkchopjim on January 3rd, 2009
The LCK’s ‘real business’ is selling idiots like you ‘tools’ which make THEM money but do nothing for those who buy them. You just seem to think you’re special because you have lots of nothing that you spent lots of money on. Perhaps you forgot the “Fool’s Gold” example? Just because you bought something useless for less doesn’t make it a good deal. It just makes you stupid.
But, funny you should describe it that way – and it just proves again that you’ve NEVER had a ‘real business’ – Amway or otherwise, by your own description.
Alas – you’re again reduced to making things up about me…whereas you DO in fact have over 10,000 ‘tools’ in your house that you’ve spent upwards of $35K over 15 years.
You’ve been wrong a number of times on your ‘stacking’ description. Plus, you keep changing it. Regardless, you haven’t provided anything that shows I’m wrong – you’ve only shown that you can’t admit it, even though you prove it for me.
Perhaps you DID get over 1000PV this month: it was Christmas, afterall! All you ‘black friends’ and ‘family’ that think your plan is ‘brilliant’ get loads of energy drink syrup, vitamins and soap powder from you? How much did that cost you to get back to your glory days? I know you don’t have downline, so it’s just you buying your own junk plus the 25PV you get from ‘out of state customers’. That’s only 975 PV that you had to buy yourself. LOL!
Tex on January 3rd, 2009
Tlt,
It isn’t a cynical attitude, it’s just the facts. If you can’t deal with facts, go back to your regularly scheduled fantasy world.
pcjimmie,
The LCK’s ‘real business’ is selling idiots like you ‘tools’ which make THEM money but do nothing for those who buy them. —- Wrong again, bedpan breath. Those tools were at least partially responsible for the LCK’s going from 0 PV to whatever LCK level they reached. LOL
You just seem to think you’re special because you have lots of nothing that you spent lots of money on. —- No, I’m special because I get to do a public service by keeping you off the streets while you type your inane dribble. LOL
Perhaps you forgot the “Fool’s Gold” example? —- I guess I did. Is that the stuff at the bottom of your bedpan when you empty out all the liquid? LOL
Just because you bought something useless for less doesn’t make it a good deal. It just makes you stupid. —- I know you are, but what am I? LOL
But, funny you should describe it that way – and it just proves again that you’ve NEVER had a ‘real business’ – Amway or otherwise, by your own description. —- See above.
Alas – you’re again reduced to making things up about me…whereas you DO in fact have over 10,000 ‘tools’ in your house that you’ve spent upwards of $35K over 15 years. —- The tools in my house didn’t cost nearly that much. LOL
You’ve been wrong a number of times on your ’stacking’ description. Plus, you keep changing it. Regardless, you haven’t provided anything that shows I’m wrong – you’ve only shown that you can’t admit it, even though you prove it for me. —- No I haven’t, you’re just too stupid, or too busy with your bedpans, to understand it. LOL
Perhaps you DID get over 1000PV this month: it was Christmas, afterall! All you ‘black friends’ and ‘family’ that think your plan is ‘brilliant’ get loads of energy drink syrup, vitamins and soap powder from you? How much did that cost you to get back to your glory days? I know you don’t have downline, so it’s just you buying your own junk plus the 25PV you get from ‘out of state customers’. That’s only 975 PV that you had to buy yourself. LOL! —- Then again, you have no idea, do you? It’s a new year, but the same old pcjimmie. LOL
Porkchopjim on January 4th, 2009
Those tools were at least partially responsible for the LCK’s going from 0 PV to whatever LCK level they reached.
Got me there – it’s true those ‘tools’ provided the income stream that Amway couldn’t, keeping LCKs in the business much longer than Amway could have by itself.
No, I’m special because I get to do a public service by keeping you off the streets while you type your inane dribble.
It’s drivel, moron. Nice try, though, and thanks for that! What streets are you keeping me off?
The tools in my house didn’t cost nearly that much.
Texmath – you’ve got to consider your ENTIRE ‘investment’ into the ‘tools.’ See, it’s idiocy like this that keeps you pretending that you make a profit buying your own products.
You can claim you haven’t been wrong or changed your stacking story – but as you like to say, here is the permanent record that people can read, reach their own conclusion and then weigh that against the one you proclaim. That would be a Tex Transparency Initiative WIN, making your opinion all the more impotent in other people’s minds.
Then again, you have no idea, do you? It’s a new year, but the same old pcjimmie.
Once again are you guessing at what I know and hoping what I don’t know? Yes!
Tex on January 4th, 2009
Those tools were at least partially responsible for the LCK’s going from 0 PV to whatever LCK level they reached./Got me there – it’s true those ‘tools’ provided the income stream that Amway couldn’t, keeping LCKs in the business much longer than Amway could have by itself. —- The tools provided part of the reason for business growth and Amway profit between 0 and the LCK level as well, which occurs PRIOR to LCK tool scam profit. LOL
No, I’m special because I get to do a public service by keeping you off the streets while you type your inane dribble./It’s drivel, moron. Nice try, though, and thanks for that! What streets are you keeping me off? —- Oh, I meant DROOL, moron. Nice try, though, and thanks for that! Any street you aren’t on while you’re typing. LOL
The tools in my house didn’t cost nearly that much./Texmath – you’ve got to consider your ENTIRE ‘investment’ into the ‘tools.’ See, it’s idiocy like this that keeps you pretending that you make a profit buying your own products. —- YOU referred to the tools in my house, not me. I’m aware there are other expenses, but YOU didn’t refer to them in YOUR original post. LOL!!!
You can claim you haven’t been wrong or changed your stacking story – but as you like to say, here is the permanent record that people can read, reach their own conclusion and then weigh that against the one you proclaim. That would be a Tex Transparency Initiative WIN, making your opinion all the more impotent in other people’s minds. —- Too bad the people I work with get my view, not yours!!! LOL!!!!!!
Then again, you have no idea, do you? It’s a new year, but the same old pcjimmie./Once again are you guessing at what I know and hoping what I don’t know? Yes! —- I’m not guessing at all, and don’t care what you think you know or don’t know. Yes! LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!
Porkchopjim on January 4th, 2009
Too bad the people I work with get my view, not yours!!!
Which would be????
Let’s see.
Tex, after admitting that stacking does make platinums (after trying to deny it), is worried that it won’t work for him because he doesn’t have sufficient side volume.
If Tex had a ‘group’ as he says he does, that wouldn’t be so much of a worry.
I’ve always considered all your ‘investment’ to get your 10,000+ useless tools for the bargain price of about $35K over 15 years. You’re the one who doesn’t like that part.
And, no – you didn’t mean ‘drool.’ Your basic idiocy is almost good enough without all this Amway foolishness lumped in!
Tex on January 4th, 2009
pcjimmie,
Too bad the people I work with get my view, not yours!!!/Which would be???? —-Which would be, you’re a proven idiot. LOL
Let’s see. —- If only you could see….LOL
Tex, after admitting that stacking does make platinums (after trying to deny it), is worried that it won’t work for him because he doesn’t have sufficient side volume. —- Nice try at rewriting history. I’ve always said you can stack your own multiple legs, but shouldn’t expect upline to stack several legs for you, just one. LOL
If Tex had a ‘group’ as he says he does, that wouldn’t be so much of a worry. —- And you are completely clueless, as usual. LOL
I’ve always considered all your ‘investment’ to get your 10,000+ useless tools for the bargain price of about $35K over 15 years. You’re the one who doesn’t like that part. —- And you don’t have a clue on this, either. LOL
And, no – you didn’t mean ‘drool.’ —- My bad, I didn’t mean to step into your bedpan, you definitely own “drool.” LOL
Your basic bedpan idiocy is almost good enough without all this Amway foolishness lumped in! LOL
lost on January 4th, 2009
wow so many comments on this forum
before it was lots of ppl but now its just like 3 ppl
umm well i dont know much about this amway as im still 15
but my mum has joined it and she just asked me to research becos she heard its not all that it turns out to be
and after reading this forum
i srsly dont know wht to think
lol
oh well
thnks
Porkchopjim on January 5th, 2009
Nice try at rewriting history. I’ve always said you can stack your own multiple legs, but shouldn’t expect upline to stack several legs for you, just one. LOL
Laughing because after 15 years, you still can’t ‘run’ your own ‘business’? I know I think THAT’s funny!
And, you just proved me right, again.
And you are completely clueless, as usual. LOL
Proven to the contrary, again, by Tex himself.
…you definitely own “drool.”
Good one, Tex? Ever since you got ‘drivel’ wrong you’ve been stepping on your crank like a champ – which is why this is so good!
Luckily, more people read this than your mono-blog!
What insulates your ‘tools’ from the same fate that they found in the UK?
By the way, did you ever finally figure out (seeing as it’s written all through the ruling) what the UK was upset with the tools for?
When you have an ‘effective’ system of telling people to buy their own stuff and getting more people to do it as a way to make money (which was not the original intent or purpose of the ‘plan’, but did provide artificial growth not through demand but through deception), you’ll find that there is no place for random tapes and CDs that are used to extract money from suckers.
It will no doubt take you at least 24 years to figure that one out, seeing as you were so quick on the uptake and it only took you 12 years to figure out the ‘tools scam’ – even in the most simplistic and incorrect form you have it in your damaged brain today.
Tex on January 5th, 2009
Laughing because after 15 years, you still can’t ‘run’ your own ‘business’? I know I think THAT’s funny! —- No, I’m laughing because you remain clueless. LOL
And, you just proved me right, again. LOL
And you are completely clueless, as usual. LOL
Proven, again, by Tex himself. LOL
…you definitely own “drool.”/Good one, Tex? Ever since you got ‘drivel’ wrong you’ve been stepping on your crank like a champ – which is why this is so good! —- It’s good for one of us, and it isn’t YOU! LOL
Luckily, more people read this than your mono-blog! —- I wouldn’t be so sure about that. Looks like this thread is mainly me and you, or great bedpan changer! LOL
What insulates your ‘tools’ from the same fate that they found in the UK? —- Easy. Tools are still ALLOWED in the UK, you just can’t make a profit from tool sales. LOL
By the way, did you ever finally figure out (seeing as it’s written all through the ruling) what the UK was upset with the tools for? —- No, I was waiting for the “entertaining” retard answer that’s swirling around in your head! LOL
When you have an ‘effective’ system of telling people to buy their own stuff and getting more people to do it as a way to make money (which was not the original intent or purpose of the ‘plan’, but did provide artificial growth not through demand but through deception), you’ll find that there is no place for random tapes and CDs that are used to extract money from suckers. —- I don’t know which tool system you’re talking about, but it isn’t mine! LOL
It will no doubt take you at least 24 years to figure that one out, seeing as you were so quick on the uptake and it only took you 12 years to figure out the ‘tools scam’ – even in the most simplistic and incorrect form you have it in your damaged brain today. —- yawn.
thechaser on January 5th, 2009
Hi Lost:
there are valid points in what everyone have contributed so far; my suggestion will be for your parent to look at some facts from both sides.
1. money can be made if the Business is done correctly, its a business so work it like business. Most people who have not made this work are usually not running it like a business. (especially those who criticize the business after been in it for short period or none at all)
2. The tool scam does exist, but not in all systems. If there is pressure on just system then I would suspect that is not what the business is all about. We teach balance of retail and sponsor.
Speak to your up line but if u r in oz, there have been plenty of people that have had some success in the business so it does work.
Not for everyone though, because not everyone want to change
thechaser on January 5th, 2009
Hi Lost:
there are valid points in what everyone have contributed so far; my suggestion will be for your parent to look at some facts from both sides.
1. money can be made if the Business is done correctly, its a business so work it like business. Most people who have not made this work are usually not running it like a business. (especially those who criticize the business after been in it for short period or none at all)
2. The tool scam does exist, but not in all systems. If there is pressure on just system then I would suspect that is not what the business is all about. We teach balance of retail and sponsor.
Speak to your up line but if u r in oz, there have been plenty of people that have had some success in the business so it does work.
Not for everyone though, because not everyone want to change
Porkchopjim on January 5th, 2009
“Ever since you got ‘drivel’ wrong you’ve been stepping on your crank like a champ – which is why this is so good!” —- It’s good for one of us, and it isn’t YOU! LOL
You stepping on your crank is good for you? OK, if you say so!
“By the way, did you ever finally figure out (seeing as it’s written all through the ruling) what the UK was upset with the tools for?” —- No, I was waiting for the “entertaining” retard answer that’s swirling around in your head!
Sorry, Tex – you’re going to have to get someone else to read it for you. But, keep showing everyone how you like to select the ‘facts’ you care to crow about.
I don’t know which tool system you’re talking about, but it isn’t mine!
Correct – I was talking about the ones that worked and showed growth. That certainly isn’t yours.
Tex on January 5th, 2009
Lost,
Have your mom ask her upline how much the Platinums, Emeralds,and Diamonds make from the tools. Make sure they include money from functions/meetings, web sites, voice mail, books, CD’s. The tools are YOUR mom’s money making the upline the vast majority of their profit, which is separate from the Amway profit. Bottom line, the money made from Amway is funneled upline in the form of tool profits, but the upline doesn’t like to talk about it. Click on my name for the tool scam details. It would also be helpful to know the tool system name, upline names, and tool prices. Unless this is a VERY unusual group, the prices will be comparable to other groups and the above statements are dead-on correct.
Jacky on January 5th, 2009
Joined amway 29 years ago only to use the products. Went to meetings and was happy with the basic philosopy. Then all the Seek the Dream started with the more “well dressed”, “we are more motivated” people started to push “tools”‘ which we couldnt afford. We stepped out, BUT we love the products and still use them and buy them from the same couple who are now in their 70s, and who have a loyal customer base for what Amway first started as,… quality products that were inviromental. So it is sad such a fine product has two lines…..core products……and the hyped up scheme of vultures!
Andrew Flanagan on January 5th, 2009
Interestingly, your words are those of someone who has a lack of education. I have experienced many good solid things through the Amway business. Mate, Cults have followers that do everything the leaders say; I wish this busy was that easy!!
Moreover, if you have all the scientific facts, the products are in the top five in the world. Hmmmm, that must be terrible!!
Lastly, have you checked to see how much the CEO of your company earned last year and compared that to ALL of the other employees collectively; is Amway really a pyriamid?
DJ on January 5th, 2009
Hi All,
Not sure why, however I feel to put in my $10 worth!!
Whomever has been involved or introduced to an Amway business and has purchased any more products other than that for personal use has been mislead. Of course if you want to buy anything in life and re-sell it to the public well that’s again your choice, these places are commanly known as IGA or Foodworks . . . of course if these people don’t sell stock, or buy too much stock they don’t blame IGA, they are aware that they have made a poor business decision and suck it up and move on. Unlike individuals who choose to buy far too much Amway product and then blames Amway or IDA or N21, they were not forced to purchase anything, they decided to write the cheque or to enter the Visa number to do so, assuming your all over 18 years old, take responsibility for your own actions rather than blaming someone else.
Secondly, all this talk about Diamonds / Emeralds and the like making money from book / cd or function ticket sales . . . . I’m unsure if they do or don’t however I hope that they do. How is it any different to any public speaker, business person who arranges an event and sells tickets or products . . . of course they are going to make money and why shouldn’t they?? If I was to purchase 300 homes in 2 years and make millions and then write a book about how I did it shouldn’t I be allowed to make a profit and further to that if a book store was to but 10000 copies from me and sell them to their customers should the book store not be allowed to make money and finally if I then wanted to arrange a seminar and teach people how to buy homes and make money and then I sell my books there is it not acceptable for money to be made from ticket sales and book sales?????
If you have a logical way of thinking, and you are not convinced that everything is a scam and dodgy you’ll realise that Amway, N21 or IDA is no different to Harvey Norman, Super A-Mart, Telstra, Coffee Club or Anthony Robbins who either produce or purchase products and on sell them for a profit and then offer you me or anyone a chance to purchase a distributorship (commanly known as a Telstra Shop or Coffee Club etc.) and make money for ourselves. There is no ‘sure thing’ and only about 3% – 5% of people will be successful in any venture they choose to do.
I wish you all the success in whatever you choose to do . . . . even if it is a Telstra Shop or an Amway business .
Tex on January 6th, 2009
Jacky,
I have no issue with making money from using and selling products and developing an organization that does the same, do you? Where I have an issue is when MOST of the money comes from the tool scam, and the upline LCK’s (Lying Cowardly “Kingpins”) don’t admit it. Agree or disagree?
Andrew,
While I don’t consider Amway or the tool scammers a cult, there is SEVERE misrepresentation (lying) regarding where the profit comes from, and the tool scam money extracted from the downline. That would be YOUR lack of education, and I suggest you click on my name for the tool scam FACTS.
DJ,
There’s a fundamental difference between Amway and your other examples. Your other examples don’t involve someone talking about how to make money in one area, actually making most of it in another area, yet promoting the first area as their source of lifestyle. This is called lying. Not only that, but most IBO’s won’t make a profit following these tool scam systems until they reach about the Platinum level, which means they have to find several dozen new IBO’s, most losing money, just to break even. Does this sound like a good business model to you?
Trebla on January 8th, 2009
Do I need to respond to the diatribe that I have read running down the Amway business. There is nothing wrong with the concept or its execution. I have not been as successful as I had hoped but KNOW that the program works. The issue of buying and using the promotional tools is a none starter. When these upline leaders started out they used the motivation materials of outside speakers and book publishers. Was there profit in it for these outsiders? So, if the upline can substitute his expertise and experience to help his downline, does it mean that as a businessman he should not garner for himself the profit that the outsiders made? What is unethical?? Why does the buyer need to know what the upline is earning if it is legal and above board? I wonder how much the outside publishers earn and what their profit margins are????
Is this hypocrisy or sour grapes??? Maybe it is just shear ignorance.
When you go into any business you need tools. Some one is going to profit from the tools production. Why should the profits not go to the person who is helping you?
The greatest scam is that we can word for 45 years and still be broke. Go to school, get a good job, make a lot of money an live happily ever after. What a joke. Every traditional business out there is a PYRAMID. The people at the top make all the money and there is no way you can surpass them in earnings and lifestyle unless he terminates. Not even the CEO makes more then the owners. It is a system which we have been brainwashed into and designed by big business to keep us down and out and broke.
Think first and be informed before spouting off!!!!!!
As an educator I have to recommend that my student get annually revised edition of a text book just because the author/publisher has change two line in a particular chapter. That’s scamming!!
If you want to pick holes in something, have a better plan to offer and do your due diligence first.
Rahul on January 10th, 2009
Hmmm well the topic is hot again…
Tex on January 10th, 2009
It’s never cooled down.
Anna on January 11th, 2009
I just want to know where I can buy Glister toothpaste in Sydney. I was given the producty by my mum and both me and my husband happened to like it a lot.
I don’t care if it’s a pyramid or smth else, I don’t want to be involved in it – I just want to buy the toothpaste:))
Tex on January 12th, 2009
You can go on the Australian Amway site and buy a tube at retail for $10.94 AU, and I will check with Amway tomorrow to see if I can make someone in Australia a customer, and, if this is possible, sell it for IBO cost, which should be about 1/3 less.
thechaser on January 12th, 2009
buy them from me…!!!!! I am in sydney… LOL.. they are pretty good… they don’t have clients anymore in Australia..
either retail customer or IBOs
Anna, why not get it off your MUM?
sarah on January 14th, 2009
I used to be a client but i felt pressured by the motivational cd’s, seminars and so on. I am to embarassed to speak to my old friend who got me involved but I am addicted to the artistry foundation is there anyone in SYDNEY CBD who I could order this from without having to rejoin the whole sytem again. I just want to buy another 5 bottles of foundation and that will keep me going for a year. I cannot buy from the website unless i register as a referral and thats all too hard. please contact me at customer12345@live.com.au
N.H on January 22nd, 2009
You are exactly right when you say that it is simply a legal pyramid scheme. Whether its characterised by a ‘pipeline’ or circle or triangle or whatever other shape they use, you are still right at the bottom of the pyramid and always will be.
The recruiters are pretty sly in their ways when they characterise it as a ‘business opportunity’… ITS NOT!! They’re also pretty pushy and use celebrities to try and convince you its credible… once again, ITS NOT.
Whatever happened to working hard to earn your money in an honest reliable fashion. Amway is not the answer.
Mr Tlt on January 22nd, 2009
Why not just join to buy artistry products at whole sale
Mr Tlt on January 22nd, 2009
Or just be a client of an IBO to buy at whole sale
Tex on January 22nd, 2009
Because customers can save $50/year by not signing up, at least that’s how much it costs in the U.S.
thechaser on January 22nd, 2009
NH:
With your comments it clearly demonstrated that you have NO IDEA about the compensation plan and you most likely have not even invested any time into understanding the plan and how it actually pays…
Yeah you are right, it must be pyramid because I am earning more then my sponsor’s sponsor because I am right at the bottom hey!!
Check your facts..
Tex, I am not referring to any Tools income, just defending the Networking industry…
BTW some countries allow clients at no cost and some countries don’t cost to join like India… so why not join???
Tex on January 23rd, 2009
thechaser,
You are correct about NH needing to check how the AMWAY plan works, but it is a small part of the overall compensation equation. The tool scam overwhelms any discussion dealing with the OVERALL compensation plan/tool scam. Check your facts….
Amway shouldn’t BE defended until they put a stop to the tool scam. Don’t you get it? CO-FOUNDER Rich DeVos spoke up about the tool scam in 1983, over a quarter CENTURY ago, then did nothing. Can you imagine the millions of people that have been ripped off and the billions of tool scam dollars that have gone in to LCKs’ hands because of the INACTION that have occurred since? Get a CLUE.
I know the UK is free to join as an ABO, I thought India still cost money, although less than before. However, UK makes up for it by having a required purchase level in order to get the retail/wholesale differential.
evvy9 on February 2nd, 2009
Me and my boyfriend have recently been approched by an icommerce IBO. My boyfriend joined and i have not..luckily!.. firstly the basis of this scam is that the products you can buy throught them (amway products) are 15-30% cheaper compared to products you would normally purchase from your local stores..LIE!!!!! their products are same priced or more expensive; you have to buy most products in bulk (like 12 packets of pasta) and you get surcharged if you buy in bulk (which you have no option is some cases). Another thing is they offer limited amount of products. Secondly we were told that you register when you buy your groceries through them for the first time… LIE!!!! there are 3 options by which you can register 1. pay $165 (includes a pack with 3 protein bars and some vitamins) 2. pay $80 plus buy a pack (all packs are over $100) 3. pay $99 but only get limited internet use (pack from 1. is included)….Thirdly they pressure you to go to seminars and buy motivational products (my boyfriend was pressured into suscribing to motivational CD..monthly charge of $70!)..if you don’t go to their seminars and buy their motivational products they say that you CANNOT succeed!!
This has just happened recently to us.. you can only be a success within this if you are willing to lie/scam lots of people by telling them that these products are cheaper.. this is what it comes down to!
thechaser on February 3rd, 2009
EVVY:
Sorry about the bad experience…
firstly, have you tried the products??? and have you compared per usage or based on what it seems to cost. There is a brochure that can be downloaded from the site of how we compare with CORE products at RRP vs in marker products at RRP.
secondly groceries should have not been promoted as been cheaper… the CORE product are ..
who approached you and under what system… where was the workshop that you went to??
Have you compared prices of Artisty vs DJ make ups or any other major brands???
It sounds like you were told some truth but not the whole truth… thats not Amways fault but the independent operators.
Our rule of thumb is, if its not full PV or BV and can be bought else where then fine… but is its CORE products you can not beat it in price… I would challenge anyone to prove me wrong… and lets be fair, and compare apple with apples.
Ian on February 3rd, 2009
Interestin enough i’m agreeing with Mags (comments No.35)…..
If Amway such a big business and their products are as good as they say it would be…why put a price tag so high to sell their CD and Seminar materials, they should be doing the seminars for free or less expensive if it is really the products that they are selling….NOT THE SEMINAR MATERIALS…right?
Let’s stop and think for awhile….If you have products that are great in quality, wouldn’t you be promoting your products through commercials, workshop, presentation (Seminar) or anything to convince people that your products is indeed good…..at you expense (cost)….this what we call marketing cost….in return for sales revenue made from these activities.
Look…I know most of the people that are in this business are oblivious of what they’re getting theyselves into….It is possible to make money from selling their products…but you’ll not get to that point where “work at your own prefered time…and made whole lots of money” kinda thing…..this is the ultimate dream (topic) sold by lots of people through books, CD, etc…because it is the ultimate dream that all of us dream of. But the truth is, those that made money from Amway the way they said it…made it from selling “the dream”….selling products…yeah, you make money….but nowhere close.
My last note…to those who believe in the dream…and determine to try Amway or similar busines….please, I repeat again…please, limit yourself from buying seminar materials, paying up for meetings with your upline, and so on….and sell the “PRODUCTS”….see how long can you keep it up….Don’t waste your money on motivational seminars…it is available for free over the internet…lots of it.
Good luck
Ian
Jakarta-Indonesia
Tex on February 3rd, 2009
evvy9,
Your instincts were correct. You should not walk away from this group…..you should RUN!!!
thechaser,
It appears to me this is a young person, who does not buy, nor have the budget to buy, core line high quality products. There are plenty of core line products that are higher priced, and most of them are higher quality as well. This makes for a subjective, not objective, comparison. Is Double X initially worth the extra cost for someone trying to pay their rent every month? Nope. How about someone who doesn’t think nutrition is important, and isn’t interested in learning more? Nope again. Even if they could figure out a strategy, I would NOT recommend they work with this group, they look like pure scam trouble.
ibofightback on February 3rd, 2009
Ian, unfortunately your comments betray your misunderstanding of the business model. Amway does not sell motivational materials and seminars. They are generally optional materials supplied by a number of third part companies. It’s unfortunate that many folk marketing Amway in conjunction with these materials do not make that clear, so many people have the same misconception.
Amway provides a variety of resources and seminars at cost or free of charge, but many folk find value in the third party material and training and chose to use it. Most do not. In general more people using such materials and training are successful than those not using it. Indeed, in my experience having introduced dozens of folk to the model, none of those chosing not to use the optional materials have ever done anything to build a business, let alone made a profit.
Secondly, you say “If you have products that are great in quality, wouldn’t you be promoting your products through commercials, workshop, presentation (Seminar)”
Commercials are not an effective way of marketing products that require some effort to explain the features and benefits, but Amway does do branding commericals and virtually every successful Amway business owner I know does workshops and presentations on the products. As such, your question is not only meaningless, it’s incredibly misleading in it’s assumption Amway and Amway business owners do not do these things.
evvy9 – it appears the opportunity has been presented poorly to you and your boyfriend. Whether that was a result of an inexperienced IBO or something more endemic to the group he works with I don’t know. The products *are* generally cheaper than their market equivalents, but they are not the cheapest and do not try to be. If you’re not already buying grade 4 quality pasta, or cosmetics of the standard of Estee Lauder and Clinique, then you almost certainly won’t save money on the products available through Amway – you can still of course *make* money through marketing the products to others, which is really the point after all!
Eddy on February 3rd, 2009
Awesome !!!
I would like to refer this website to a few of my “mates”, but I don’t want to shatter their dreams. Mates who I won’t call ignorant, illiterate, dumb. Not at all, most of them are accountants. People who are very careful with their bucks, may be too careful. I am very glad to know that there are other people out there who agree that Amway is nothing but pure scam.
My story about my experience with Amway is such:
I met a couple girls one day in a pub. Good looking enough to try my luck getting some sexy rendez-vous with. They started flattering and saying all sort of things that every man on this planet want to hear. We exchanged phone numbers etc… made an appointment for another time. Cool!! I thought that I was on a sure thing here, may-be a threesome. Met up with them in a coffee shop a couple of days later. Here I am, sitting with two chicks in a coffee shop and they both had books, pens and diaries with them. Oh oh!!I did not expect that at all. Meet and greet, the normal way – Hi how’re you going? Good to see you again!! Blah, blah, blah!! I must say that they have done really well so far. Where they went wrong is when they started asking personal questions like: what do you do for a living? what would you like to achieve in 5-10 yrs time? What car are you driving at the moment? What would you like to drive in 5-10 years time? What would you like to be doing everyday instead of working? blah! blah! blah!!….
What was going through my head at that time was: “It’s none of your f…ing business!” As hopeful as I was of getting some nookie at the end of the day, I had to be nice as much as I did not want to be. Well well well!!!
After 10 minutes of answering their crap personal questions and listening to their crap. I was ready for a second coffee. Ordered my second coffee while thinking over what I was getting myself into – I convinced myself to be nice and keep listening to their crap for another half an hour max.
Back to my seat with these two girls (Missy and Millie), a change of mood hit me and I starting throwing questions at Missy and Millie. I then started to figure them out. Missy is the one with more experience and confidence between the two and Millie is the apprentice.
Cut a long story short.
Missy and Millie could not answer my questions like: How much money are you making from the business at this point in time? What is the website address that they were talking about?
After Missy and Millie realised that they were dealing with a very tough customer here. Their level of enthusiasm have dropped from 110 to nothing within half an hour. What do we do from now? What is going through their heads now? I started to take full control of these two girls at this point in time.
Figured a way to end this “meeting”. I had to make up that i had to meet a friend soon and that i had to go. On an ending note, I wished them luck in their so called business, and success.
Couple of years later, I bumped into Missy at a cafe. Guess what!! she was working at that cafe. i guessed that she must have recognised me from somewhere, and all sort of thoughts must have been going through her head at that time like: “this guy seems very familiar! Where do I know him from? Oh! I hope he’s not one of the amway dudes I was trying to scam! How embarrassing if he was!!” I was so tempted to ask her what happened to all her goals that she had two years ago. But, I decided to leave like that and just said hi to her.
Three years after that a “so called” mate rang me after years that I have not heard from him. Excited and ignorant as I was again, I gave him 10 precious of my time, thinking that he wanted to catch up. But, to my disappointment, it was about that Amway scam again. I had to end the phone call wishing best of luck with Amway.
And today again, another mate came visit me after 4 years that I haven’t seen him, same thing happens again!
As disgusted as I was. I decided to jump on the internet and do more research about Amway which is how I came across this website.
I thought that it was worth giving a last half an hour of my time again to Amway writing this little story of mine.
I want to wish good luck to every one who believe in Amway. Which I am not saying that it does not work. Hey! there are worst scams out there. Gambling, the church etc…etc…
Everyone has their own opinion of things.
This is why I fully support freedom of speech.
On the positive: I did get some sexy time thanx to Amway!!
At the end of the day – I must say that I am grateful to Amway in my own way!!!
Thank you very much Amway!!!!
thechaser on February 3rd, 2009
The problem is not AMWAY per sa… its more to do with the operators. A business is a business which is movement of product..
eg. if you make 10c profit out of every coffee you make, if you make 1000 coffees a day you make $100.
If you have 100 artistry, nutriway, XS, Emma Page CUSTOMERS that spend 100pts on a regular bases that means you will make about $2000 to $3000.
not rocket science, what most people forget is that WORK is required to have customers in any business. Too many of us are trained to wait for an answer.
eg. I work in recruitment, most of us is just happy to WAIT for a reply from someone to have permission to have a pay check… come on.. you sell something you make something, take some control in your finances.
Not many of us like to run a business, ITS NOT FOR EVERYONE, but I do know most of you will buy something from some where tomorrow. may it be from a shop or from a distributor…
I bet everyone who ever had negative comments are usually with the PEOPLE and not the product… honestly … what is wrong with buying some skin care??? or premium vitamins… you don’t want it DONT buy it … see if I care .. because someone else will.
There is a big difference between AMWAY, AMWAY DISTRIBUTORS, System/TOOLS OWNERS… so if you want to make a comment make sure you know which part of those you are referring to…
Ian on February 4th, 2009
check out this coverage on the Quixtar/Amway business model….then decide for yourself. I do agree, that these operators that have made this business even worse that it already is…I’m not sure whether the promise of a great life was even made by Amway (or similar companies)….perhaps it were these operators that created the ‘scamming model’ as they went along and joined up with these companies…
I believe that there are people who joined up in hope of a better life through selling these product and making downline….in the pursuit of a better life, sometime they got carried away (without knowing) in their an effort of offering the products and/or pursuing downline that they became a hassle to some people…
well…here’s alink to the coverage, decide for yourself:
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ot31XhgE_XE&feature=related
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgnvMfDu47c&feature=related
Tex on February 4th, 2009
thechaser/Ian,
You’re right, Amway is a good opportunity, it’s the LCK’s the are the problem. They are no longer operating in the UK. In fact, the “leader” of N21 got body slammed a couple of years ago for saying Amway had the problem, not N21. ibofb posted the letter, twice,and removed it, twice, from his web site.
ibofightback on February 5th, 2009
Ian,
The Dateline show focused on 1 small group within 1 LOA within 1 country that Amway operates. They would have represented less than 1% of 1% of 1% of Amway. The main person featured in the show was sanctioned by Amway afterwards and “retrained” (sounds a little Orwellian that last bit …)
You never hear about the folk not causing in waves. It’s not news.
Ex IBO on February 6th, 2009
Ian, you are right. Date exposed some unethical material and evidence against Britt Worldwide (BWW), a motivational LOS of Quixtar, now Amway Global. Ibofightback, although you claim it was a small percentage of people, I believe Britt Worldwide (BWW) has many of these functions all over the country and could cover as much as 10% or more of the IBO sales force in the US. Another perspective would be whether it’s ok to steal from people because you are stealing from a small group of people. Or how would you feel if you reported your home was burglarized and the police offer told you they don’t investigate burglary because only 1% of the population gets burglarized?
Tex on February 6th, 2009
I’ve seen similar descriptions from virtually EVERY LOS/LOA, ibofb is sounding like Steve and Doug with their softball questions during a recent interview:
Orrin was”retrained” as well, for 6 years, prior to repeatedly breaking the same rules over and over before getting booted.
N21, and more accurately the N21 LCK “leader”, Jim Dornan, was the ONLY group I’m aware of that got publicly HAMMERED by Amway. That wasn’t a wave, it was a tsunami.
Eddy on February 9th, 2009
I still can’t believe some people are still defending SCAMWAY!!!
What!! Are you nuts? Lost the plot or getting paid to lie……
Everyone got their own definition of ethics!!
Let’s put it down to simple mathematics.
How can Amway sell product X for $5 and the local grocery store(smart-mart) sell the same product X for $3.50. Smart-mart as the name implies sells to smart people and dreamers buy from Amway at $5 plus postage and handling, hoping that Amway will at the end of the month sends him a cheque of $3 on the conditions that he buys 10 product X. What a waste of ink and paper!! We’re supposed to be saving the planet. At the end of the month, smart mart shopper only spends $17.50 because he only needs 5 product X for the month. Where as Amway customers spent $50 plus postage cost-have to give 5 product X away because she only needs 5 of them.
Wow, but, hang on!! Amway supporters will say that if her business expands, she will make $30 to $300 a month depending of the numbers working for her.
Yeah, true. Good luck finding 100 non-smart shoppers like yourself to buy from Amway………………………………………
I wish Southpark releases an episode on Amway one day. Will sure be funny!!
thechaser on February 10th, 2009
Eddy:
Those comment truly reflects that you are talking out of your ass!!
Firstly I don’t know anyone who runs a business that buys 10 and gives 5 away.
Two, you have probably never used a product in your entire life yet you are an expert on value.
Three, there are people who ACTUALLY does like using ARTISTRY and take NUTRIWAY because they want to. They are called CUSTOMERs not IBOs. So I don’t get your point.
Four. Buying ARTISTRY is definatly cheaper than buying lancome, Estee Lauder… but what would I know, you are the expert on price aren’t you.
Five, people should only buy what they need and use and supply some product to customer if they want some. We have about 10 to 15 customers that LIKES the products. Our Dish drops cost us $20 to buy 14 months ago and I still have about 1/4 of it left. Don’t you think that is value??
Six, they don’t use checks anymore??? Haven’t used it for about 9 years so where did you get your facts from?
Seven, Fact is this. We have about 20 good Artistry customers and do about 1000 pv in volume. That about $500 PROFIT. On going, not facials. just on going customers because the LIKE the product.
Please, check your fact next time before you talk out of your ass again. I am sick and tire of people like you who do not check the facts and make up scenarios that are not close to running a smart business and have NEVER even used a product. Yeah really credible to be talking about something you don’t know about.
Tex on February 11th, 2009
Eddy,
There are examples of products that are severely overpriced, some that are competitively priced, as I posted on qblog a couple of years ago, and, as thechaser noted, some that are priced consistent with their quality, a subjective situation (in other words, worth the extra price to some people, and not to others).
While I also agree with you about packaging being less if you shopped at stores, this has to be offset with the gas you don’t use driving to the stores, and the fact Amway has been recognized for minimizing packaging: http://amwayglobalinsider.opportunityzone.com/2009/01/23/No-excess.aspx
thechaser is a great example of a rabid IBO who can’t have a civil discussion, and ignores the valid points you made.
thechaser on February 11th, 2009
tex:
I dont think Eddy was trying to have a civil conversation. I am more than happy to have a civil conversation if valid point were made.
the points that you made was not mentioned in Eddy’s post. At no time did Eddy mention anything about some products were value. He made a very blatant statement that Amway distributors are all stupid for paying overprices products and thinks there is money in it.
Eddy did not check any of those facts before making those comments, he was attacking the Business (networking industry as a whole) and if you read his other posts then you would know that Eddy has no intention of having a civil conversation about some of the valid points in the business. He already made up his mind about the business.
I agree with you that there are some issues that has to be sorted but there is a difference between blatantly stupid about drawing up example of price when one has probably never used a product.
Are you saying that one should listen to a critic that have never been in the situation that he/she is criticizing about??? surely not.
I don’t have a problem people making a point based on some facts but I would not tolerate people making comments based on opinions.
And by taking a shot at me also shows that you have probably ignored some of the valid points that I did make in the last post.
Tex on February 12th, 2009
Eddy made a valid point. He made a comment about SOME of the products being overpriced.
I think it’s stupid for the upline to preach 100% product (and tool system) loyalty, which includes the overpriced products. This sends the message to Amway the pricing is okay. This is a bad idea, and has fed the tool scam.
My message isn’t meant for just Eddy, it’s for all readers. I’m not here trying to “save” Eddy, just sticking with the facts.
The issues should have been “sorted out” long ago.
No, I am saying almost every critic has at least a partial point to make, and it is up to IBO’s to set the record straight.
Most comments are based on opinions, some of them are also based on facts.
I have found you generally consider some facts, and not others. This makes you a great LCK candidate unless you change.
thechaser on February 12th, 2009
Tex
Eddy was making a generalization on Amway pricing. I do agree some are not as competitive because its a different price bracket for people.
I have ignore the facts that you have presented and I do believe there has been price cuts across several range of products and they are now becoming very well priced. I can only speak for the Oz market and the last time Rich was out he admits that some of the products are not market conscience so they are taking the next 6 to 8 months to rectify that.
I have taken onboard a lot of the facts that you have presented and have agreed that many thing need change. However I still believe that people have a misconception about the business from the get go because most people are only willing to see part of the fact.
We have already agreed on many things that you have mentioned, I just don’t participate in the Tools debate. I personally give many cds out, copies of mp3 and have not taught 100% product use. We teach smart usage because there are enough products to make 100pv a month. (products with value)
I do wander what you mean by ‘i have to change’… in what way?
Tex on February 12th, 2009
People like Eddy will ALWAYS make generalizations, because they are basing their opinions on their outdated experience.
Simply tell them about what Rich said about the lowered prices, the quality of the products being competitively priced with similar quality products, and move on.
Here’s the problems with not participating in the tool debate:
1. Others are being ripped off by the tool scam as you watch, without comment
2. There were probably many IBO’s doing the right thing in the UK in 2007 when the business was essentially shut down and suffered negative publicly.
Therefore,mere awareness of the tool scam and not participating in it is insufficient.
It’s “wonder”, not “wander.”
Alan on February 13th, 2009
It saddens me to see all the stuff that is going on, especially with people not being ‘up front’ in their claims and in trying to interest people in having a look at the business.
I have been an Amway distributor for 32 years and believe that the old, simple approach was best. It is probably a lot harder now to do this because of all the negative publicity created by people doing the ‘wrong thing’.
My family and I were very active in the business for many years and never had to pressure people or exaggerate claims of income or about the products. We made quite a decent income which supplemented my day job and enabled us to send our children to private schools.
My situation has changed as have my needs and I made the concious choice to not ‘work the business’ very much. I no longer wanted to put in ‘what it takes’ to make the business grow successfully and so now I keep my efforts to a minimum, but still make a small amount because of my early efforts in previous years.
Even though I was a staunch supporter of the business, I didn’t feel I had to promote 100% use of the products as there were some products that didn’t suit me or for which I had a preference for a shop bought product (though there weren’t many I didn’t want). It was entirely up to me. Also, unless things have changed radically without my knowledge, I don’t see how people are STUCK with products they can’t sell, as it has always been possible to return the product for refund.
Even though, I rarely promote the business on my own behalf these days, I remain a strong supporter of the principals and methods espoused by the founders and see no reason why those principals need to be watered down or glossed over.
I always found that honesty was the best policy. Yes, not everyone joined, but that was entirely up to them. It is not for everyone. For those who did join, I would do everything I could to help them achieve what they wanted from the business even if for some it was simply to get the products wholesale.
I would urge everyone in the business and considering it, to get the facts straight and operate on a strong foundation of honesty and integrity.
Jared on February 19th, 2009
I’m from Australia, and i have recently been introduced to the AMWAY plan. It is an extremely strange experience to go through. At first, a strange man rings you telling you he’s looking for a motivated person and has been told to ring you by your own mate (in my case a mate named Sam who i consider as my brother). Then after you’ve said NO numerous times they finally convince you to go to once of these meetings. I went to one on tuesday night just gone and i must admit, i was sucked in…hard.
I had planned to sign up and everything. Then i got home, talked to my parents, and some work colleagues about it…all of whom warned me heavily. Instead of being blinded by my own ambition i decided to research AMWAY and all i can say is THANK GOD FOR THE INTERNET!!!…as soon as i started my research, i uncovered so many evil things…then i kept talking to people such as family, friends etc and found out more and more about this EVIL organisation.
Now that i have come to my senses (thank god it was before i signed up) i look back on the meetings i had with the so called “diamonds”. Everything is done an almost cult like, religious manner. They hide things from you that only “member” are allowed to know. They play on your fears, hopes and dreams. They have this funny, humerous and motivating speaker (by god he was good), then once its over they take you to meet him (drag you in more) and he tells you how much potential he sees in you and how you can reach the top in no time. The people around you try their grandest to keep eye contact AT ALL TIMES and they make promises which for a short time you tend to believe…
i’m so glad i was smart enough to get out before i got in so to speak….however, i have my best friend, who i believe is all heavily brainwashed on the idea.
Can someone tell me how i can approach him to get out, without having him turn on me…i love him and i’d hate to see this ruin him. he’s vulnerable as he lives on his own and has family in other states…what do i do???
thechaser on February 20th, 2009
Hi Jared:
what is this EVIL organisation done that is SO Evil??? Do they not provide everyday consumable items?? I bet you if you really look at some of the EVIL things that they mention, most of them don’t even exist these days. Talk about living in the past..
Is it evil if a person uses Loreal and shares the product with a friend. Its called network marketing
Where is the brainwashing?? Have you read the Cashflow quadrant? Why is Donald Trump associating himself with ACN, and why is Michael McQueen an extremly successful business person helping the gen Y out of sydney associating himself with this SO called EVIL organisation who by the way grew up in an AMWAY family. I don’t see him walking around in horns and taking people for granted.
Why is Adam Gilchris, Matt Rogers, Choe Maxwell associated with the business and in the business??? They must be EVIL according to your friends?
Why is a young man called Ben in QLD who started the business 18 month ago and had the opportunity to ‘stop’ work when he turned 21 and collected a 20k cheque.. i guess they are just all EVIL money.
Did you find any of that information on the net in your research?? THANK GOD for the internet,
I guess if there are negative things about a car on the internet about a certain product you would treat is as fact.
Then if its broadcasts on the NEWs it would be fact too right. so why dont you check out THIS NEW broadcast and take that into consideration. These are University marketing professor talking about the industry.
http://www.nbc13.com/vtm/news/local/art … omy/59952/
The problem in not AMWAY as persa, its the people operating it.
Secondly, did any of your buddies offer any advice to better your ambition and give you a solution on how to get ahead in life? Money is not everything and you shouldn’t try and talk you mate out of it. Do him a favor and let him grow
By the way, which organization did you go to, where was the meeting. was it IDA or NET21
TEX, i know your reponse. Yes check our your blog… I still believe there is still hope in some systems as I do believe prices are dropping to accommodate for the fact there is no longer any warehousing like they use to.
Its an issue that has been addressed and resolved.
Tex on February 20th, 2009
Jared,
It isn’t so much a cult, but you are dealing with folks who are not honest about where most of their profit comes from, and that’s why there are things that make it look cult-like. But you definitely made the right decision to stay away from these liars. Click on my name for more details, and have your friend do the same. It will save him a LOT of time and money.
thechaser,
You “believe” prices are dropping? How much were they, and what are they now? Are you talking about Amway products or tools? It may be an issue that has been addressed and resolved in your mind, but I see no evidence of that.
Rahul on February 25th, 2009
It would be nice to see in these times how are our IBO’s performing and how many are buyong those dream houses as they promise us when they invite us to the so called “New BIZ” chance.
ibofightback on February 26th, 2009
Over a billion dollars in growth alone last year Rahul, around 35% of which goes to IBOs.In ANZ there were new Diamonds, new Double Diamonds, and a new Founders Crown Ambassador recognized, not to mention the many new Platinums and Emeralds. If you want to “see” them, why not go look?
Tex on February 26th, 2009
Too bad we don’t know where the growth is occurring. For the first time in about a half century, we don’t know the North American volume.
We have NEVER known how stable the organizational growth is, as there is growth in one organization, offset by setbacks in another organization. The next year, the organization that grew shrinks, and another one replaces that group, which continues every year. You can go look, but chances are you have to look elsewhere the next year.
Tex on February 26th, 2009
Rahul probably cares mostly about Australia, as I care about the U.S. Growth in China, India, etc., has little impact for us. But let’s not let facts get in the way of a good argument.
Tex on February 26th, 2009
Also, about 35% of the $8.2 billion may have INITIALLY gone to all the IBO’s, and divided proportionally, based on their volume and structure.
But because of the tool scam, all of what most of the IBO’s below Platinum made from Amway was taken by the upline LCK’s, and then some.
The net result? The LCK’s got all of the $8.2 billion, plus. Most IBO’s below Platinum operated at a net loss.
Fingers on March 25th, 2009
I’m a Uni student in Sydney. I was approached by a guy from a group called “Team 1″ Which i eventually learnt had Amway as a parent company. The guy kept on talking about me earning 7 figures a year, and said that he believed i could do it. Why would a stranger want to give me such an opportunity. I specifically asked him about profit sharing pyramids and buying stock from up line, even before i had read these posts, but he kept urging me to go to the seminar and dodging the questions. I find group psychology and persuasion very interesting so I’m going to go along and look at their methods, knowing it is all crap. I love the fact that all the defenders of Amway use the rhetoric of hope and/or the associations with big reputable companies. Of course large corporations will walk hand in hand with you if you make ridiculous profits, they have no moral standards. Someone who defends Amway show us a defense based on the baseline principles of selling the product, and show how the average Joe can make money without getting their friends to sign up to Amway or buy in bulk.
Who wants 7 figures a year if you spread deception and misery and hate yourself for it?
Tex on March 26th, 2009
Fingers,
It would be interesting to know what the upline people and tool system name for “Team 1″ is, could you find out at the meeting? Thanks.
The probable reason they are interested in you is to rip you off via the tool scam. Google “Tex” and “Amway”, then go to “NINE STEPS OF TRUTH” link on the left side.
thechaser on March 27th, 2009
fingers
it wouldn’t be very hard to show you how you can make $4000 per month based on selling product.
one of our girls make about that much in Artistry, but as you said its all crap.
I found some interesting comments you made about ‘buying from your upline’… where did you get that idea from???
Team 1 if part of the the north sydney group. Not all groups work the same way, I am surprise how he has approached you though because you probably weren’t even in the looking zone in the first place. The guy have just done himself an injustice by inviting a person with preconieved ideas about the business and not really open to the numbers.
Tex will tell you that the number does work but the problem is in the tools that various organization.
Fingers, if you look back through history.. the very way that people made their millions IS by selling products .. its called a salesforce. have you heard of company called Salmat Salesforce in Australia, telemarketer… and various other sales teams.
The more people you have either using the products or selling the product the more you leverage your time.
I don’t have any of my friend in the business, they all know I am in the business and they are all still my friends. You want to know why, not every distributor out there is trying to shove energy drinks down their mates throat. If that happens then that person is not going to last long. Everyone HATES a pushy sales person.
another thing is, we are all contracted to Amway. This is an AMWAY business. different leader just call their business groups different names.
By the way, one of the girls in TEAM 1 does make about $2000 to $3000 a month and they do Emma Page parties. I know because i know some of the people in TEAM 1, they are not all what you think they are.
when you have 100 to 150 customer doing 50pv to 100pv and structure them correctly then you will make $2000 to $3000 residual income.
That is no different to having a coffee shop and have a turn over of about $30000 per month worth of products.
Now the plan states if you repeat that over 6 different legs then your total turn over is well over $180,000 per month so the six figure income they talk about is not that unrealistic.
This is ALL AMWAY money, and you CAN build it with out the system. But the system is there to support you so that crap like this on the net doesn’t have an effect on the belief whether the plan works or not because its a bit untraditional.
thechaser on March 27th, 2009
fingers, i would challenge to meet me in person and go over all the objections and I gurantee you won’t be disappointed. not because I am some gun sales person but I checked all the numbers and the facts long before I was in the business.
All your objections are nothing new.
email me on info@healthykicks.com.au
Tex on March 28th, 2009
Fingers,
If you want REAL facts, instead of “thechaser” spin, visit my web site by clicking on my name.
thechaser on March 28th, 2009
Tex, are you denying that the figures that I have presented are not factual???
What you have one your site are FACTS based one your experiences and others, what I talked about is my experience and others and they are also FACTs.
Tex on March 29th, 2009
I think your figures are extremely unusual examples that are FAR from typical, and do NOT address the issue of NET profit, only GROSS profit. Other than that, your figures are fine….LOL
Here’s the figures we should be looking at: what are the costs of your system meetings, voice mail, web sites, books, CD’s, etc?
thechaser on March 30th, 2009
our max cost in system participation is 100 pm, including 6 cds, 1 book and 2 tickets..
Ben Cooke on March 30th, 2009
It’s this simple, people warning other about this business model and how it works have nothing at all to gain. The way recruiters approach people is outright deceitful…FACT! My phone conversation today with an Amway recruiter from Network21, went more or less like this: (para-phrased)
“I have a way to help you make your business go big”
“How is that? What exactly are you proposing? Do you want to be a potential investor”
“Lets meet up and I can tell you all about it…and I promise you I won’t be wasting your time…”
“Well I don’t even know you or have any idea what it is you are actually proposing, selling or what service you’re offering…Can you give me a quick overview or outline over the phone?”
“Well I really couldn’t do it justice over the phone, but lets say I belive in your new small business and I want to show you, how you go further with it…”
-by which point I was filled with schepticism and kind of concerned because he had originally claimed he was a potential client and I had already given the man my business address. I told him I wasn’t really interested, since I had no idea what I was supposed to be interested in, but if he wanted to pop around I could spare him a moment (this was so not my brightest idea in hind sight). The representative spent the first half an hour talking to me, with vague detail, about how to make money with this amazing, but still secret, business madel…without even saying that it was a business model…in fact he really only established that I was successful and I confirmed to him that, yes, I would like to be earning more (but who wouldn’t)…next second the conversation takes a 180 degree flip and suddenly we’re not talking about my business at all, we’re talking about establishing an IBO and selling Amway products, which I might add has not even a 5th of the profit potential as what I’m already selling, even if I was to make a successful and trusted establishment that carried Amway products…which lets face it…who would walk into that store? And the to top it all off he asked me not to do any Internet research, not to tell my friends or family about this meeting and he also asked if he could call friends of mine from my phone so they would answer his call. WTF?! And I’m supposed to trust this guy…whom, incidentally, I know nothing about? Are they joking?
If anything the whole experience just made me mad, as you can probably tell. Amway recruiters, in my opinion are the lowest of low lives. They make sales representatives and born again Christian recruiters look like saints…which incidentally have been bumped down from number 1 and number 2 most annoying and potentially deceitful people around.
People not to trust:
1. Amway IBO recruiter
2. Born again Christian recruiter
3. Sales representative/Marketting (who at least make an honest and respectable, hard earnt living)
Finally, I really feel bad for the people that this kind of deceit works on. I would recommend for people to trust their instincts if approached by anyone promoting ideas that resemble the above and/or the name Amway. And if you’re reading this wondering if you should invest your well earned money…ask yourself what does Ben Cooke have to gain from you staying away?
Ben Cooke on March 30th, 2009
PS I have nothing against Christianity or any other religious belief. I actually have spent a great deal of time studying religions and belief systems and various philosophies of the world. I am very passionate about this sort of thing. I don’t, however, agree with the way people try to “recruit” other into their religions. Especially when these people, who are trying to recruit others, generally prey on those who have not developed great understanding about such matters or people who are in dire desperate situations in their life or too young to know better. It’s one thing trying to give someone a little hope, but it’s another thing altogether trying to force opinion or way of life on someone who can’t really think for themselves, or is in no condition or position to do so.
Having said that there are definitely genuine caring people in these roles, but not all have your best interest at heart.
Tex on March 31st, 2009
Really? You’re not encouraged to buy contact and followup materials, you have no voice mail or web site costs? You don’t spend any money for major functions? Nice system.
thechaser on March 31st, 2009
Tex,
we dont have voicemail or websites costs.
My apologise, we do have 4 major functions as you know as well as the 6 BDS.
As for follow up materials we usually just lend them the one that we have, my are all in mp3 anyway.
We only use a QI brochure and the Leave behind is from Amway.
Its not overly expensive, well the we we run it anyway.
Ben,
That person have done the wrong thing by lying to you, as well as poping around when you said know.
However it does not make all business owners ‘low life’. that like saying all musilms are Terrorists… seriously I hope thats not what you are refering to.
There are 3 million operators over the world and you came into one person so you are making a judgement call on all the rest of them. That is hardly fair.
And do you seriously think that a sales person is making an ‘honest’ hard living??? someone I know just got knocked over for over $100k from a sales guys for fraud, so does that give me the right to say all sales people are crooks???
secondly, do you know that there are 3 business centers to purchase Amway products, one in brisbane, sydney, and WA and one in NZ… and YES people do WALK in and buy stuff and they are not business owners. So I guess your knowledge on that matter is also very limited.
Tex on April 1st, 2009
thechaser,
At what point would a typical IBO be at the break even point? Assume reasonable width and provide a PV level.
Tex on April 1st, 2009
Ben,
You made the right decision. Click on my name for more tool scam and other details.
Joanna on April 1st, 2009
The AMWAY coven in Sydney is alive and well. Kerryn and Sam Abagi consider themselves the leaders of it here. Funny thing is this group craps on about how big the ‘BIZ’ is growing but the list of names on their mailing address hardly increases. It’s the Sydney EXPLOSION (their catch phrase at the moment). NOT! I have been absolutely hounded by these people. I almost lost a friend because I didn’t want to join AMWAY, I did anyway to keep the friendship and now have the inside information into how they work. I said no no no but they just keep coming. Glenn Whitehead (a lawyer) is pushing it too here, he is one of the speaker’s at their weekly meetings. I have added their real names in so when someone googles it they will have some idea of what these people are doing. Luke I have been following this thread since it began. If you want emails to back up my claims I would be only happy to help. There was a thread early in this discussion that I was moved by (“Lauren’s’ story) the ‘IBO’s” “Jacqueline and Karlheinz Kramer-Maier are true, these peolple will harrass you if you show the slightest interest and they won’t stop until you join or tell them to F##k off. No one can defend this buisness, it’s wrong.
Joanna on April 1st, 2009
To the Chaser,
When I want to buy a buisness, maybe a cafe, corner shop or the like…I would ask to see the books. I would have an accountant go through the books as well Yet i f I ask a AMWAY IBO the same, I am told that it’s none of my buisness…why is that? I am not asking about their personal income, just what they earn from the BIZ.
Tex on April 1st, 2009
Joanna,
I can defend the business, but not the way the LCK’s (Lying Cowardly “Kingpins”) are ripping off others via the tool scam.
thechaser on April 2nd, 2009
Joanna:
The business can be defended, but the people’s action CANT because they are two different things.
The group you mentioned should then go back to the CDs that talks about the philosophy of the business.
This business is not for everyone, RESPECT their decisions not to look and participate. I told one of my new IBOs to NEVER approach or mention the business again once they have shown then overview and have indicated NO.
The fact is, the biz is still growing because new platinums and emeralds are growing every month and you will see that in the mags which you should have.
I have often said, its not the BIZ that is the problem; its the operators thats the problem.
AMWAY distributes and produce products, people/IBOs offend people with their misconduct. I still have all my best friends hand out with us regularly and if you have been following this thread then you would know that all my friend knows that I am in the business but have not put a cross up to me when they see me. I don’t bug them and its just a project that I work and would show to people IF they are looking. You obviously not so you would not have even got to the first meeting with me.
You should never have to JOIN to keep the friendship, what is the world does that mean????
If the group that you mentioned keeps doing what they are doing then their group won’t grow because there are plenty of other groups that are still growing. You just have to get the facts.
TEX
because we don’t run excessive amount of tools like some of the other systems a person with reasonable width and depth at 9% to 12% should be more then breaking even.
Thats running a hypothetical structure of about 6 – 8 paying personal bonus legs at 3% and maybe 2 or three at 6% and above.
That structure should be yielding about $250 – $300 with a little bit of customer volume.
Thats about 18 to 20 people in the group with 6 to 8 front line bonus legs.
Because we teach local groups to start of with the expenses are not that high.
CDs, books and functions are about $100 max, and open meeting are about $40 bucks with coffee if you want to buy them afterward and then the 4 majors and extra travel time.
I don’t see why that is too out of ordinary. I just wish that some IBOs would just do the biz properly and respect other people’s believes and opinions and tries to SAVE the world financial crisis.
BTW out website is free access and you choose whether you want the cds, mp3 or books. I lend most of my guys mp3 so that cuts down on cost in running the business.
I just hope that some of the people reading this thread actually acknowledges that fact there are people out there building the business properly with integrity and respect for others.
I have a coffee with a guy yesterday after I showed him the brief overview and he said no and I said that fine and we just have other conversations after it. No big deal. I am not going to hassle him just because he had a slight interest??? what good would that do for me?
Joanna on April 2nd, 2009
Tex, the chaser
So if I am not part of the tool’s buisness I could spend a long long time trying to make any money from AMWAY? Could I retire after 2 or 5 years, as have I have kept being told. Has anyone in Australia done it lately?. CHASER. were you interested in the person after he said no? Was he still a good person?, did you get his number out of someone’s phone? Was he only a great person because he might join the buisness and when he didn’t, you never thought of him again?…Did you tell him that you were looking for some good people to earn some good money. Did you tell him “I can’t promise you anything but you could make some good money”? Did you not say AMWAY until the last possible minute? Did you tell him what potential he had and then had nothing to do with him when he said no? Please answer these questions for me guys.
And why do us women have to take the background in this awsome buisness?
All I want is my friend back, not for money, not for lifestyle but just we because we were good friends until AMWAY came along. I earn a six figure income…I still have to go to work every day. (and I can produce my tax return). Sorry no one can retire on a six figure income. If someone approaches me in a cheap suit and is overly friendly, I now think he is either a pervert or a AMWAY seller. That’s AMWAY’S fautl not mine.
Joanna on April 2nd, 2009
Tex, the chaser
So if I am not part of the tool’s buisness I could spend a long long time trying to make any money from AMWAY? Could I retire after 2 or 5 years, as have I have kept being told. Has anyone in Australia done it lately?. CHASER. were you interested in the person after he said no? Was he still a good person?, did you get his number out of someone’s phone? Was he only a great person because he might join the buisness and when he didn’t, you never thought of him again?…Did you tell him that you were looking for some good people to earn some good money. Did you tell him “I can’t promise you anything but you could make some good money”? Did you not say AMWAY until the last possible minute? Did you tell him what potential he had and then had nothing to do with him when he said no? Please answer these questions for me guys.
And why do us women have to take the background in this awsome buisness?
All I want is my friend back, not for money, not for lifestyle but just we because we were good friends until AMWAY came along. I earn a six figure income…I still have to go to work every day. (and I can produce my tax return). Sorry no one can retire on a six figure income. If someone approaches me in a cheap suit and is overly friendly, I now think he is either a pervert or a AMWAY seller. That’s AMWAY’S fault not mine.
Joanna on April 2nd, 2009
Chaser,
I don’t care about the percentage’s, the hypothethical’s, it’s the cost of friend’s and families that add up. If it is so good why isn’t everyone who joins rich.
The Sydney Coven has an aim of 10,000 yes 10,000 new Diamonds by 2010. Do the math…it can’t be done. Back to you guys.
thechaser on April 2nd, 2009
Boy thats a lot of questions… ok here we go… answer for each after the dash
So if I am not part of the tool’s buisness I could spend a long long time trying to make any money from AMWAY? – no, because the plan clearly pays well pending on the structure. A NEW emerald just qualified in our cousin group in NZ and that was only 2 month ago and the last AMWAY bonus check was $88k and that included the $50K one off bonus as stated in the plan. 3 NEW Founders Platinum just qualified last month which is a one of cheque of $20k with cash flow of $3000k + per month. Check the mags, they are real. Matt Rogers (footy player) moving into Emerald Qualification recently. He started just under 2 years ago. So the long and short answer is that it can be achieved before someone finishes a 4 year uni degree.
Could I retire after 2 or 5 years, as have I have kept being told. Has anyone in Australia done it lately? – Read the last answer
. CHASER. were you interested in the person after he said no? – interested in what way, if I didn’t know them their no. is deleted from my phone. If they are my friend, two of them are coming over for dinner this weekend (not a business plan… )
Was he still a good person? – What do you mean by that, should I have think of him any differently, just because someone doesnt like salt in their soup and I do doesn’t make him/she bad??
did you get his number out of someone’s phone? – some I do, some I met.
Was he only a great person because he might join the buisness and when he didn’t, you never thought of him again? – read the last reply, I have no preconceived idea of the person, so I can’t comment wether him was great or not either b4 or after. If I didn’t know of him in the first place then I won’t think of him again, surely that doesn’t make me bad. If you mean wether I will contact them again then the answer is no because he said no the first time.
…Did you tell him that you were looking for some good people to earn some good money. – No, I ask them whether they are open to look? thats a fair question I think
Did you tell him “I can’t promise you anything but you could make some good money”? – No, I tell them that I don’t know whether it may appeal them but with the overview they can make a decision whether its for them or not. I don’t talk about money because I don’t know what they need, that what we teach our group… everyone have different needs when it comes to money… or needs
Did you not say AMWAY until the last possible minute? – Åmway is mentiond in every workshop, we don’t tell them it AMWAY in the overview as people relate to AMWAY differently, just like what is happening now, my experience is vastly different to your yet its the ‘SAME’ name
Did you tell him what potential he had and then had nothing to do with him when he said no? – No, if the overview is done correctly, then no potential is mentioned as I don’t know whether the person is even looking or not. I am merely checking to see if they are open to look at another way of making money, and the overview clearly mentions that is non-traditional and it does involve the network process. They can decide on the spot, the workshop will show the no. more clearly. I don’t know how the guys do the plan at Lane Cove
Please answer these questions for me guys.
And why do us women have to take the background in this awsome buisness? – what make you say that, we have very active women in the business, they do emma page, and artistry really really well. Where did this idea come from?
All I want is my friend back, not for money, not for lifestyle but just we because we were good friends until AMWAY came along. – I do feel sorry that a business like this can come between friendship, but I can understand why that may have happened. and I do feel bad that it has once again tarnished the AMWAY name because its the person that is at fault not the company.
I earn a six figure income…I still have to go to work every day. (and I can produce my tax return). Sorry no one can retire on a six figure income. – why not, if you expenses are low and you live conservatively $150k a year is more then sufficient for me. we survived on $70k so we can live on $150K. Its all relative, I have friends (not in the business) that only have 1 income of $55k and 3 kids, and they are very happy. As for tax returns, good business operators also produce tax returns, no difference here. I still do a tax return.
If someone approaches me in a cheap suit and is overly friendly, I now think he is either a pervert or a AMWAY seller. That’s AMWAY’S fault not mine. – is that really AMWAYs fault or the perverted operator?
To answer you last few question in the last post, Not every who joins wants to be rich, some people are happy just making an extra $500 a month, and we have couple that have that. Another in our group is making a residual of $1000 a month and he does NOTHING in the business anymore, and I mean NOTHING.. no cds, no books, no functions, no workshops… but still banks the $1000 because of the work he did few years ago. So that s a good little profit for him. Thats like own a unit outright and have no mortage on it… I think thats a good asset of probably $350k in the bank… all because someone is buying some products in the business. Thats the bit that most people don’t seem to see
and the other thing is that, not everyone is willing to do the work. As the plan states, you have 6 legs that produce 7500pv week in week out, the money is definately there, because thats a turn over in the business world of over $135K per month.. so the diamond income will be about $200k and round about. (AMWAY money – its in the plan)
BTW, if someone said to me that they want to break 10,000 new diamonds by 2010 they are dreaming, haha.. that over 10Mi new IBOS… haha.. I think they may be referring to TEAM 10K by 2010 which is a team of 10000 people by 2010, which is doable.. because we currently have about 5000 in our team. I hope they are not promoting the idea of 10,000 new diamonds by 2010. That just out rages.
One of the fastest growing groups in US have goals of only 100k in their team by 2010 so it may be a bit out of reach.
Joanna, I feel as if you have had a bad experience with the people that you have dealt with, please do not think that all IBOs are like them. I know the guys you refer too as I have met them and they are not operation with us anymore (thank goodness if thats what they are teaching their group). Please email me if there are any other queires. I don’t want to get you into Amway, but I don’t want you to have a bad impression on a business that many people are building it honestly.
my email is info@healthykicks.com.au
thechaser on April 2nd, 2009
to reply to your post in 413, once again if we look at how the business was taught then the question about income should always be refer to the person who is helping to build the team. In my case its my sponsor who is an emerald in the business, and when that question was ask he always answered it truely, declaring where is income came from.
does how much a person makes make a difference?? everyone is an individual business you can make as much or as little as you want based on what volume you want to produce and how much time you have for the business. You are not buying a business because if would cost you a lot more then $100 and thats probably why you want to have an accountant looking through the books whn you are buying a traditional business.
In this industry you are building your business, so the no. are in the plan to show you what you can actually make based on volume and effort.
Tex on April 3rd, 2009
The fact is, the biz is still growing because new platinums and emeralds are growing every month and you will see that in the mags which you should have. —- WRONG. Until there is a magazine showing how many platinums and emeralds are falling OUT of qualification, and Amway is reporting the business volume, which they DIDN’T do for the first time in 50 years for North America last year, we have NO IDEA whether the business is growing. In fact, I can easily assume the U.S. volume is below the flat $1 billion it has been for several years.
Tex on April 3rd, 2009
I have often said, its not the BIZ that is the problem; its the operators thats the problem. —- I will clarify: It’s not the Amway BIZ that is the problem; it’s the LCK tool scam that’s the problem.
Tex on April 3rd, 2009
So, you tell them they will break even when they have a group of 18-20 IBO’s losing money? If so, when do you tell them this? When show the plan? After they sign up? After they ask?
Tex on April 3rd, 2009
Joanna,
Here’s my answers, I haven’t read “the chaser” answers yet:
So if I am not part of the tool’s buisness I could spend a long long time trying to make any money from AMWAY? —- You could make SOME money by doing some retail, and may be able to add new IBO’s slowly over time.
Could I retire after 2 or 5 years, as have I have kept being told. —- I think this is possible ONLY if you buy into the tool scam.
Has anyone in Australia done it lately?. —- Probably, but you don’t hear about when they crash and burn a couple years later.
CHASER. were you interested in the person after he said no? —- Looks to me like he wasn’t even interested in this person as a customer.
Was he still a good person?, —- I think you’re being a little too harsh on this issue, as most business relationships don’t continue if there is no business being done. You may ask to check back with them in a given amount of time, but you would quickly run out of time if you tried to remain BFF (best friends forever) with everyone.
did you get his number out of someone’s phone? —- I have no idea.
Was he only a great person because he might join the buisness and when he didn’t, you never thought of him again?… —- See above BFF comment.
Did you tell him that you were looking for some good people to earn some good money. —- Again, this is a bit harsh. Why would you tell someone you are looking for bad people and earn some bad money?
Did you tell him “I can’t promise you anything but you could make some good money”? —- What’s wrong with this?
Did you not say AMWAY until the last possible minute? —- Probably, I know I do, because the LCK’s have ruined the Amway name reputation.
Did you tell him what potential he had and then had nothing to do with him when he said no? —- See above BFF comment.
Please answer these questions for me guys. —- Done.
And why do us women have to take the background in this awsome buisness? —- You don’t, it’s the best way to isolate the wife from the husband, because it makes the tool scam more effective.
All I want is my friend back, not for money, not for lifestyle but just we because we were good friends until AMWAY came along. —- I think you have a different situation, because they are an EXISTING friend. Most of my friends didn’t join after showing them the plan, they remain my friends, although a few of THEM chose not to continue the friendship.
I earn a six figure income…I still have to go to work every day. (and I can produce my tax return). —- Same here, except I earn high 5 figures (U.S. dollars).
Sorry no one can retire on a six figure income. —- Are you saying this isn’t enough money, or you can’t produce six figure income via Amway?
If someone approaches me in a cheap suit and is overly friendly, I now think he is either a pervert or a AMWAY seller. That’s AMWAY’S fautl not mine. —- Or maybe you forgot to put on your bra!!!! Just kidding, a little humor is needed here.
Tex on April 3rd, 2009
Here’s my response to “the chaser’s” answers:
So if I am not part of the tool’s buisness I could spend a long long time trying to make any money from AMWAY? – no, because the plan clearly pays well pending on the structure. A NEW emerald just qualified in our cousin group in NZ and that was only 2 month ago and the last AMWAY bonus check was $88k and that included the $50K one off bonus as stated in the plan. 3 NEW Founders Platinum just qualified last month which is a one of cheque of $20k with cash flow of $3000k + per month. Check the mags, they are real. Matt Rogers (footy player) moving into Emerald Qualification recently. He started just under 2 years ago. So the long and short answer is that it can be achieved before someone finishes a 4 year uni degree. —- BS. ALL of these people were probably participating in the tool scam.
Could I retire after 2 or 5 years, as have I have kept being told. Has anyone in Australia done it lately? – Read the last answer —- Ditto.
. CHASER. were you interested in the person after he said no? – interested in what way, if I didn’t know them their no. is deleted from my phone. If they are my friend, two of them are coming over for dinner this weekend (not a business plan… ) —- You should have at least asked whether they would like to be a customer and/or if you could get to them in the future (let them define the timeframe).
Was he still a good person? – What do you mean by that, should I have think of him any differently, just because someone doesnt like salt in their soup and I do doesn’t make him/she bad?? —- Ditto.
did you get his number out of someone’s phone? – some I do, some I met. —- Ditto.
Was he only a great person because he might join the buisness and when he didn’t, you never thought of him again? – read the last reply, I have no preconceived idea of the person, so I can’t comment wether him was great or not either b4 or after. If I didn’t know of him in the first place then I won’t think of him again, surely that doesn’t make me bad. If you mean wether I will contact them again then the answer is no because he said no the first time. —- See above.
…Did you tell him that you were looking for some good people to earn some good money. – No, I ask them whether they are open to look? thats a fair question I think —- Ditto.
Did you tell him “I can’t promise you anything but you could make some good money”? – No, I tell them that I don’t know whether it may appeal them but with the overview they can make a decision whether its for them or not. I don’t talk about money because I don’t know what they need, that what we teach our group… everyone have different needs when it comes to money… or needs —- Ditto.
Did you not say AMWAY until the last possible minute? – Åmway is mentiond in every workshop, we don’t tell them it AMWAY in the overview as people relate to AMWAY differently, just like what is happening now, my experience is vastly different to your yet its the ‘SAME’ name —- See my answer.
Did you tell him what potential he had and then had nothing to do with him when he said no? – No, if the overview is done correctly, then no potential is mentioned as I don’t know whether the person is even looking or not. I am merely checking to see if they are open to look at another way of making money, and the overview clearly mentions that is non-traditional and it does involve the network process. They can decide on the spot, the workshop will show the no. more clearly. I don’t know how the guys do the plan at Lane Cove —- Ditto.
Please answer these questions for me guys.
And why do us women have to take the background in this awsome buisness? – what make you say that, we have very active women in the business, they do emma page, and artistry really really well. Where did this idea come from? —- Emma Page and Artistry ARE the background.
All I want is my friend back, not for money, not for lifestyle but just we because we were good friends until AMWAY came along. – I do feel sorry that a business like this can come between friendship, but I can understand why that may have happened. and I do feel bad that it has once again tarnished the AMWAY name because its the person that is at fault not the company. —- See my answer, it’s the LCK tool scam’s fault.
I earn a six figure income…I still have to go to work every day. (and I can produce my tax return). Sorry no one can retire on a six figure income. – why not, if you expenses are low and you live conservatively $150k a year is more then sufficient for me. we survived on $70k so we can live on $150K. Its all relative, I have friends (not in the business) that only have 1 income of $55k and 3 kids, and they are very happy. As for tax returns, good business operators also produce tax returns, no difference here. I still do a tax return. —- I’m not sure this was the question.
If someone approaches me in a cheap suit and is overly friendly, I now think he is either a pervert or a AMWAY seller. That’s AMWAY’S fault not mine. – is that really AMWAYs fault or the perverted operator? —- It’s the LCK tool scam’s fault. The person showing Joanna the plan should have tried to make her a customer and/or asked whether they could get back with her again in the future, both of which would have resulted in their friendship continuing.
To answer you last few question in the last post, Not every who joins wants to be rich, some people are happy just making an extra $500 a month, and we have couple that have that. —- Net or gross?
Another in our group is making a residual of $1000 a month and he does NOTHING in the business anymore, and I mean NOTHING.. no cds, no books, no functions, no workshops… but still banks the $1000 because of the work he did few years ago. —- But I’ll bet they paid LOTS of tool scam money before they went inactive, and their ENTIRE group still gets scammed.
So that s a good little profit for him. Thats like own a unit outright and have no mortage on it… I think thats a good asset of probably $350k in the bank… all because someone is buying some products in the business. Thats the bit that most people don’t seem to see —- And you’re not seeing the picture, as described above.
and the other thing is that, not everyone is willing to do the work. As the plan states, you have 6 legs that produce 7500pv week in week out, the money is definately there, because thats a turn over in the business world of over $135K per month.. so the diamond income will be about $200k and round about. (AMWAY money – its in the plan) —- And how much total tool scam money is supporting this business?
BTW, if someone said to me that they want to break 10,000 new diamonds by 2010 they are dreaming, haha.. that over 10Mi new IBOS… haha.. I think they may be referring to TEAM 10K by 2010 which is a team of 10000 people by 2010, which is doable.. because we currently have about 5000 in our team. I hope they are not promoting the idea of 10,000 new diamonds by 2010. That just out rages. —- Agreed.
One of the fastest growing groups in US have goals of only 100k in their team by 2010 so it may be a bit out of reach. —- It depends if they are now 5,000 or 90K.
Joanna, I feel as if you have had a bad experience with the people that you have dealt with, please do not think that all IBOs are like them. I know the guys you refer too as I have met them and they are not operation with us anymore (thank goodness if thats what they are teaching their group). Please email me if there are any other queires. I don’t want to get you into Amway, but I don’t want you to have a bad impression on a business that many people are building it honestly. —- Joanna, you did the right thing. I suggest you tell ALL of your friends you were approached about a tool scam, and were smart enough not to get involved. Good job! There may be a time in the future when the Amway/tool business operates above board, as it does in the UK. But not now.
thechaser on April 3rd, 2009
Tex:
They are told about the structure before they sign up, we find out what they are looking for then ut the strategy in place. Make sure they are happy witht the process before the sign up. We sometime don’t sign anything untill they have a small group of 2 or 3. Everyone is different.
The example given about 6 legged 7500PV is in the AMWAY plan and the turn over is in products only and no tools. Its totally doable.
Some people build the Artistry and Emma Page as a primary. Its the ladies business, I don’t see why that would be a background. What I was referring to is that some lady show the plan as well. Not all groups have an the issue of not allowing women to participate.
All money that refer to is what they are receiving from AMWAY, because thats the plan money.
As for people fall out of the qualification, people fall out of qualification for all kinds of reasons. The plan clearly states if there is no growth in ones business then they don’t qualify as a platinum the next year. They want people to be active. The point is that people are still building the business and expanding every month.
I don’t ever see people putting stats on how many small operators lose their homes or money because their small traditional business goes into liquidation. we know it happens every year but the small business is still the foundation of an economy.
Tex on April 3rd, 2009
They are told about the structure before they sign up, we find out what they are looking for then ut the strategy in place. —- What the hell does this mean? Why can’t you answer a direct question with a direct answer? You’re becoming a great example of an LCK in training.
Make sure they are happy witht the process before the sign up. We sometime don’t sign anything untill they have a small group of 2 or 3. Everyone is different. —- Again, non-responsive to the original question. Does your upline help you with these answers, or are you just picking up their techniques?
The example given about 6 legged 7500PV is in the AMWAY plan and the turn over is in products only and no tools. Its totally doable. —- Give me ONE example of someone who has done it that way in the past 30 years.
Some people build the Artistry and Emma Page as a primary. Its the ladies business, I don’t see why that would be a background. What I was referring to is that some lady show the plan as well. Not all groups have an the issue of not allowing women to participate. —- Of course they participate with make-up and jewelry. The question asked was related to treating the women as a lower level than the guys, and I see that all the time. Remember, I have several thousands of tapes and CD’s from virtually every LOS/LOA, so I’m not blowing smoke.
All money that refer to is what they are receiving from AMWAY, because thats the plan money. —- Of course it’s the plan money. That’s call gross profit. You have to subtract the overhead, which includes tool scam costs. That’s called net profit, and is the only money that can be spent.
As for people fall out of the qualification, people fall out of qualification for all kinds of reasons. The plan clearly states if there is no growth in ones business then they don’t qualify as a platinum the next year. They want people to be active. The point is that people are still building the business and expanding every month. —- Of course they qualify if there is no growth, they only don’t qualify if there is enough negative growth. The point is most business grow and implode, only to be replaced by another “success” story that fades away in a year or two. Otherwise, there would be constant growth, which we haven’t seen in many countries, such as the tool scam capital of the world, the U.S., for several years.
I don’t ever see people putting stats on how many small operators lose their homes or money because their small traditional business goes into liquidation. we know it happens every year but the small business is still the foundation of an economy. —- Apples and oranges. Those people also aren’t trying to mislead others to start their own business. The tool scam is also the foundation of the uplines’ “success.”
thechaser on April 3rd, 2009
Tex, I gave you an answer, you asked when do we tell them about break even.
Firstly, they don’t all go on tool, so I don’t know their costs. Secondly I don’t know how far they are going to drive or how much. So I don’t know their cost. I ask them what and how much they are looking to make in the short term and then show them the structure that they need to have to have that income. Its fairly transparent but I guess thats not good enough for you.
I have already told you about how we run our tools and cds program but you seems to fail to take that into consideration whn you are responding to me. That as far as I am concerned is a small fixed cost give or take. How much is overhead to your understanding.. because from where I am standing its no more then $5000 to $6000 a year. thats including some plan tickets and accomadation with major functions.
Look, our group don’t have an distinction between role of men and girls, they are both encouraged to work the business. I know you have Cds, but I have no idea what they are talking about. Its not in my current collection, so I can’t really comment. I can only comment on what I know and experienced and teach.
As for diamonds without tools, well there was at least 3 to 4 years prior to the conception of the AMOs and I am sure there were diamonds then… who knows.. you seems to know more than me. I was just simply talking about the structure and the turn over and what it relates to an approximate income level.
I am happy to continue the conversation but you don’t seem to take any of my comments into consideration.. At least we agreed on some point a few posts back.
Tex on April 3rd, 2009
Why didn’t you list my question and then answer it, like you did with Joanna? It’s quite easy to show them the tool costs, and make some general assumptions about driving costs. From reviewing numerous blogs for several years, it isn’t “fairly transparent” at all, because there is far more hype than help in making a net profit.
So, you tell them the basic tools will cost $5,000-$6,000/year?
What you already said says volumes. You have the women do the women stuff, cosmetics and jewelry. This allows the men to be “in charge” and have their upline pimp them for tools, and set up a barrier between the husband and wife. Tell me your upline/tool system, I probably have some tools that reflect EXACTLY what I just said, and what is said in private is generally even stronger.
The strategy of the upline is to create a limited amount of agreement and cooperation, while they rip you off via the tool scam. It looks so logical until you pull the curtain back, which is why you don’t find LCK’s on blogs. They wouldn’t survive.
thechaser on April 3rd, 2009
Why didn’t you list my question and then answer it, like you did with Joanna? It’s quite easy to show them the tool costs, and make some general assumptions about driving costs. From reviewing numerous blogs for several years, it isn’t “fairly transparent” at all, because there is far more hype than help in making a net profit. – I agree that there are many groups that only focus on hype and not net profit. We recongnise that and that is why our group particularly are doing what we can to teach a balance of bit of retail and sponsoring to have the volume and the NET profit that you talk about.
So, you tell them the basic tools will cost $5,000-$6,000/year? The short answer is YES, the long answer will be that we tell them in the format of declaring what would cost them in Cds, Books when they join. What it would cost to BDS, and majors. We explain that there are travelling costs as well other additional cost. However I don’t sit there and add it all up in front of them. Also bear in mind, most of my guys are not all using the tools. I give them a lot of the mp3 already. They decide when they want to subscribe, ususally when they can justify the cost. I personally have not told them ‘you must do this to succeed’. I usaually give them the CDs
What you already said says volumes. You have the women do the women stuff, cosmetics and jewelry. This allows the men to be “in charge” and have their upline pimp them for tools, and set up a barrier between the husband and wife. Tell me your upline/tool system, I probably have some tools that reflect EXACTLY what I just said, and what is said in private is generally even stronger. – I can agree with that in some respect because I have heard about some of the older CDs that other mentions talking about that. But if it serves my memory correctly those tapes are very old. In a recent cd by the winters group one of them clearly says that they don’t discourage women doing the business. All I know is what I have heard, and what we teach. My upline and myself personally work with women where the husband are not working the business. Not the make up and jewellery side of things
The strategy of the upline is to create a limited amount of agreement and cooperation, while they rip you off via the tool scam. It looks so logical until you pull the curtain back, which is why you don’t find LCK’s on blogs. They wouldn’t survive. – not entirely sure what you mean by this. (in regards to the limited amount of agreement
thechaser on April 3rd, 2009
BTW, our upline use to be the Avelsgaards.. now Gulick. Most of the material are coming from the LTD team (winters)
Tex on April 5th, 2009
I agree that there are many groups that only focus on hype and not net profit. We recongnise that and that is why our group particularly are doing what we can to teach a balance of bit of retail and sponsoring to have the volume and the NET profit that you talk about. —- A bit of retailing only makes it easier for the upline to reach into your back pocket for their own tool profits. Think about it, they will take credit for your retail success, tell you the shortcut is to dive into the tool system, and now that you have a few extra bucks jingling around in your pocket, you can afford it easier than before. It’s a perfect set up. Again (for how many hundreds or thousands of times I have said this), the key is how much the tools COST, which results in how much tool scam PROFIT is available. It’s quite simple.
So, you tell them the basic tools will cost $5,000-$6,000/year? The short answer is YES, the long answer will be that we tell them in the format of declaring what would cost them in Cds, Books when they join. What it would cost to BDS, and majors. We explain that there are travelling costs as well other additional cost. However I don’t sit there and add it all up in front of them. Also bear in mind, most of my guys are not all using the tools. I give them a lot of the mp3 already. They decide when they want to subscribe, ususally when they can justify the cost. I personally have not told them ‘you must do this to succeed’. I usaually give them the CDs —- So, it’s all up to them to start buying tools? No pressure from the upline to attend meetings, or start buying their own books/audios/other tools?
I can agree with that in some respect because I have heard about some of the older CDs that other mentions talking about that. But if it serves my memory correctly those tapes are very old. In a recent cd by the winters group one of them clearly says that they don’t discourage women doing the business. All I know is what I have heard, and what we teach. My upline and myself personally work with women where the husband are not working the business. Not the make up and jewellery side of things —- What do you mean by “older CDs?” I have some LTD Winters less than a couple years old that match what was said 30 years ago? Do you honestly think these crooks can change? Again, the proof is in the tool price.
The strategy of the upline is to create a limited amount of agreement and cooperation, while they rip you off via the tool scam. It looks so logical until you pull the curtain back, which is why you don’t find LCK’s on blogs. They wouldn’t survive. – not entirely sure what you mean by this. (in regards to the limited amount of agreement —- So, you DO agree about the LCK’s not surviving on blogs? There is a strong, one-way flow of information, and a culture of not asking questions. If you think I’m wrong, ask Bert how much he makes via the tool scam.
joanna on April 7th, 2009
Tex, thechaser,
Thanks for the answers. I believe that my questions have been answered to the best that you could both do at the time. Though It’s still crap. Even so I will review them again when I am not so busy and see if I can add to the facts.
In regards to the group that I have seen, there are no Diamonds, there are no Emeralds, in fact according to the last magazine I read, it means that one of the weekly speaker’s is a 12%. And he is telling us how we can retire in two to five years. (Oh and he does) even though as a lawyer he has the income to have probably brought his pin. I can only go on personal facts, it does not work as it’s pushed. The documentary facts that I have from this group, about their growth just does not add up,
The group is not growing, no one retirers…these guys, the so called Diamonds from America are either addicted to the adulation from other’s or just cannot leave their business and live off the so called residual income (though both are probably true) because it’s just not possible.
Tex, not sure about the bra joke but if it was in good humour there is no offense.
Chaser, can you tell me who and when the last Australian Diamond qualified.
thechaser on April 8th, 2009
Joanna -
Crown – Peter and debbie Cox – 2008
Founders Crown – Mitch and Deidre Sala – 2008
Double Diamond – Ghabriel and Melissa – 2008
Diamonds
peter Brier mills – 2004
Malcom and Cristina Sword – 2004
Peter racovalis -2004
Ingrid Kent – 2007
Shankar Bala – 2007
Paddy Renolds – 2005
Ronnie Kagan – 2005
Grame Owen – 2006
Guy Wilson – 2006
Emeralds
Raman and Vishal – 2009 (11 new platinums in their group in 2008 and 2009)
Mike and Elanoer Wilson – 2009 (9 other platinums in that month)
Jin Min Zou – 2009 (plue a ruby,with 9 other platinums)
The problem is that you are involved with a group that is NOT growing for obvious reasons. They are probably not doing the things they should be doing and presenting the business and talk to people effectively.
Do you not use your the website for odering and do you not receive the Because Magzine or just simply go to the website and have a look at the honor roll.
some people’s business will continue to grown from this point and some wont. depends on the individual.
I don’t know how long you have been in the business, but your group was right in the middle of a problem where their 3 ex emeralds decided to take the whole group somewhere else to make some quick bucks… that was only in the last 18month.
Your group that you see is about a pin in the hay stack, they wouldn’t even cause a ripple in the entire business. The fact is that what you see is what you see and is definatel fact to you. However in one of our groups in Lismore just increased their group no. by about 36 in the last 21days.
BTW, not everyone wants to be a diamond. Some people can retire as an emerald. many have. All depends on what you mean by retirement.
The business is growing somewhere.
Tex on April 8th, 2009
joanna,
The point isn’t new diamonds, emeralds, platinums, etc. The U.S. had all those new pins last year as well, but for the first time in 50 years didn’t report the U.S./Canadian market. Do you think Amway would have reported the volume if it went up? So do I.
What happens is last year’s pins fall apart, are replaced by this year’s pins, and the same happens each year.
If you take nothing else away from this entire discussion, understand this: the reason for the “boom/bust” cycle is the tool scam. You can read all about it by clicking on my name.
joanna on April 9th, 2009
thechaser,
Why is the money from the tapes, CD’s and meetings never ever mentioned?
Why why are the “tools” pushed so hard, why is going to the meetings pushed so hard?
If this works why can’t people just say ” I am have a great buisness called AMWAY, if you join, you will make a lot of money if you want”?
Why can’t I ask to see someone’s books, as I would in any other legit buisness?
Why is that everyone above me is “On Fire”? When a look of their email address group show’s that it’s a lie?
Why is it, that a system that is working so well, needs to be changed every couple of months?
Why are people flogging this so hard, so that they might succeed by selling everyone below them a dream without substance.
Thanks for showing the list of Diamonds and Emeralds, can you tell me how many IBO’s there are in Australia and then give me a percentage of IBO’s who are Emerald or above, please. Oh and supply facts.
joanna on April 9th, 2009
Tex, the chaser,
I took the following from another web site, let me know if it’s not accurate.
Just to break even and make profits you must go well beyond the basic business plan represented.
You must market these products to many many friends, and get them to sign up under the same pretense (probable losses of 300 dollars a month?). Not easy.
This system relies on you and your downline to spend hundreds of dollars on questionably priced Amway items for as long as they (and you) can afford it, or until all your friends drop out, go broke, or become alienated or your enemy, and dont speak to you anymore, and you have burnt all your bridges. Let’s be honest, even if they gave away money, the company has such a negative image it’s difficult to trust them, let alone convince your friends to.
So if you’re not yet a “diamond”, how do you make a big profit?
Continuing on from our previous article where we established the basic Network 21 / Amway business plan results in a loss of $300 a month, assuming all personal consumption.
Examining another example given in the presentation, as we understood it:
To make the 7500 points required for the 21% bonus, in your downline you could do the following:
Convince 25 people to spend approximately $1200 every month. or 5 people to spend $6000 dollars a month, on products they probably dont need? Do you know anyone in the world that would spend $6000 on household goods monthly? Dream on.
Lets make this more realistic (but still doubtful). Convince 75 people to make payment of 400 dollars a month (30 thousand dollars total) on these questionable products, and you will have your 7500 points.
Earning 7500 points will grant you the bonus of 21% of $30,000 spent turnover.
$6300! What a payout structure!
For the amount of effort it would take to get 75 people in your downline, That amount of profit is peanuts.
If you did ever manage to get 75 people to sign up to spend 400 dollars a month on Amway products how long do you think they would continue to keep paying 400 dollars a month (losing money) before dropping out, and thus you losing your bonus? Not very long. You would have to have part of your brain missing to want to lose hundreds of dollars a month. Or the alternative story to sustaining the bonus you could get the 75 people in your downline to get 75 people in their downline, and so on and on. Is this really feasible business? How many leads would you need? Lets be realistic. In MLM, the market for any product will always eventually reach a saturation point, if it hasnt already. Especially if the company has been around for 50 years. However they do say a sucker is born every minute. Fortunately, or unfortunately (depending on your economic and environmental stance), the earth’s population is always expanding.
The systems outlined might be beneficial for some. There are a thousand other systems and opportunities out there that are much easier and can make you millions, and some are outright scams. Question the facts, investigate all systems yourself, they may be a much easier path to financial freedom.
thechaser on April 10th, 2009
I can’t believe I am explaining this load of crap from another person who obviously have no idea how the bonuses work nor the business.
Tex, I know your answer will be regarding the tools but at least let me rectify this mistakes this other person have made about the numbers.
____________
I took the following from another web site, let me know if it’s not accurate.
Just to break even and make profits you must go well beyond the basic business plan represented.
You must market these products to many many friends, and get them to sign up under the same pretense (probable losses of 300 dollars a month?). Not easy. – why is buying household products or skin care or vitamins considered a loss. You can actually register and only use the products. 3 just started this week in my group. Personals, they are not on tools and they never will be. so I don’t see how it will be a loss. They were buying some of these items anyway and they like some of the products and when you put an order together it does reach about 100pv. Artistry, nutriway, XS, LOC, SA8 and some jewellery in there. Is it because we call it a business so that when you buy toilet paper and skin care and energy drinks considered as a loss?? Surely not. (Tex, the comment clearly talks about the products and not the tools)
This system relies on you and your downline to spend hundreds of dollars on questionably priced Amway items for as long as they (and you) can afford it, or until all your friends drop out, go broke, or become alienated or your enemy, and dont speak to you anymore, and you have burnt all your bridges. Let’s be honest, even if they gave away money, the company has such a negative image it’s difficult to trust them, let alone convince your friends to. – This is a load of crap, your downline who is in the business will buy products that they need to replace their Jiffs, Windex, Cold Power, Sorbent, Spray and Wipe, LIsterine. Someone is going to be buying these things whether you like it or not. Just because they are buying them from AMWAY does not mean they are buying things they don’t need. You are not spending extra. Most of my guys are spending less in those core products then at supermarkets because they are buying they at distributor prices.
So if you’re not yet a “diamond”, how do you make a big profit? – I don’t know, how does anyone make a profit in business??? make sure your income is higher then expenses. The pin level have no bearing on profit. You can be a shopper and be in $9 profit every month because you are NOT buying any tools or functions.
Continuing on from our previous article where we established the basic Network 21 / Amway business plan results in a loss of $300 a month, assuming all personal consumption. – once again, why is drinking a Can of XS instead of RED bull a LOSS to the business? They were spending that money in a shop, was that not a loss??
Examining another example given in the presentation, as we understood it:
To make the 7500 points required for the 21% bonus, in your downline you could do the following:
Convince 25 people to spend approximately $1200 every month. or 5 people to spend $6000 dollars a month, on products they probably dont need? Do you know anyone in the world that would spend $6000 on household goods monthly? Dream on. – WHO in the world teaches that model, totally irrelavent. NO ONE in our group buys anymore then what they need plus a little bit of customer base. I am very adament that their ditto is ONLY what they use. And most of them are still 100PV circles when they are a couple. Its just changing a point of purchase using the same money.
Lets make this more realistic (but still doubtful). Convince 75 people to make payment of 400 dollars a month (30 thousand dollars total) on these questionable products, and you will have your 7500 points. – Questionable??? Why, Adam Gilchrist is parading all over australia promoting these products and most of the products have won several awards all over the world. Has this author actually USED a product, I doubt it. Here is the Fact, go to any super market and compare SA8 to most popular washing detergent. Check the recommended usage in most supermarket product eg. Cold Power. You will find that per a 2.5kg load, Cold Power want you to use 200ml per load. Where as SA8 uses 15ml per 2.5kg load. SA8 750g is $20 RRP and about $15Whole Sale. A 15KG box of Cold Power in Kmart is $46 on special, that only does just 75 loads???? the 750g of SA8 does 50 loads. Questionable products?? Seriously, lets get the facts straighten out.
Earning 7500 points will grant you the bonus of 21% of $30,000 spent turnover.
$6300! What a payout structure! – what about the 18% pay out for about $2000, and a few other such as many 15%, 12%, 9%, 6% and a host of 3% pay outs. the $6000 (which is not quite that much but we will entertain the author for the moment) is only for the silver (21%) and the rest of the $30000 monthly turn over is disbursed through the rest of the group of about 75ppl. So once again, the comment was not factual and merely opinion.
For the amount of effort it would take to get 75 people in your downline, That amount of profit is peanuts. – 75 consistent household spending money to buy their everyday item and the result is that you will be paid that $4000 for as long as the product is flowing whether you get out of bed or not. Thats call passive income, try stopping work for 12 months and see how far you fall behind compare to a well structured platinum who’s business CAN actually grown without his/her input. Get the mind set right. There is a big difference between making $8000 per month Active income then to someone who is making $5000 PASSIVE income. I know i would prefer to be the later.
If you did ever manage to get 75 people to sign up to spend 400 dollars a month on Amway products how long do you think they would continue to keep paying 400 dollars a month (losing money) before dropping out, and thus you losing your bonus? Not very long. You would have to have part of your brain missing to want to lose hundreds of dollars a month. Or the alternative story to sustaining the bonus you could get the 75 people in your downline to get 75 people in their downline, and so on and on. Is this really feasible business? How many leads would you need? Lets be realistic. In MLM, the market for any product will always eventually reach a saturation point, if it hasnt already. Especially if the company has been around for 50 years. However they do say a sucker is born every minute. Fortunately, or unfortunately (depending on your economic and environmental stance), the earth’s population is always expanding. – you will have to lose a part of your brain if you think that people are going to stop washing their cloth, read my last reply and then have a think about what this person is talking about. And where is the world did he get his concept of saturation point? Has ANY product whether it in MLM or traditional business reached SATURATION point. The NETWORKING industry as a whole have only just reached 10% penatration few years back and that includes every MLM companies out there. If there is such a point as SATURATION point then why are the new products coming out ALL the time in the same industry???
The systems outlined might be beneficial for some. There are a thousand other systems and opportunities out there that are much easier and can make you millions, and some are outright scams. Question the facts, investigate all systems yourself, they may be a much easier path to financial freedom. – OMG, there is some logic in this whole post. Yes, there are many ways you can make money, real estate, shares, websites, ecommerce, and there are many people that make lots of money out of each of those systems and write a book of their secret but there are also many that doesn’t. Read the book, The millionair next door and you will find that you can save your way to wealth if you are smart with where you put you money. Network Marketing is a industry and has earnt a chair in Harvard university so perhaps it may have some bearing on the validity of the industry. Its just ONE of Many ways. The person who wrote this comment made no mention of those thousands of systems and opportunities is it perhaps that he/she is not doing ANY of it and just making assumptions like the rest of his comment??
And yes, if the tool scams is not there then everyone will be happier.
Joanna, continue to search the web; there are plenty more whingers out there that want their opinions heard and not all factual. why don’t u take some time and talk to some business owners. not Amway and not sole traders. I am talking about business owner who have the ability of sitting on a boat on a thursday afternoon watching everyone rushing by WORKING and asking him how hard he would have worked in the beginning and how many people that he would have in his network of either 1. Customers 2. or Distrubutors. Because if they have the ability sitting there, then they must have a system in place already that is generating an income.
Tex on April 10th, 2009
Why is the money from the tapes, CD’s and meetings never ever mentioned? —- I will be doing a post on this topic soon. I am finalizing the wording, it should go up today. The short answer is, because the tool scam is an illegal pyramid.
Why why are the “tools” pushed so hard, why is going to the meetings pushed so hard? —- Profit. I don’t use the terms LCK (Lying Cowardly “Kingpins”) or tool scam for no reason.
If this works why can’t people just say ” I am have a great buisness called AMWAY, if you join, you will make a lot of money if you want”? —- The tool scam has severely damaged the name reputation.
Why can’t I ask to see someone’s books, as I would in any other legit buisness? —- Because most people don’t make money, when the overhead costs, which include the tool scam, are factored in. If you saw the uplines’ books, you would see the tool scam money.
Why is that everyone above me is “On Fire”? When a look of their email address group show’s that it’s a lie? —- Because they are burning through their savings, in order to support the tool scam.
Why is it, that a system that is working so well, needs to be changed every couple of months? —- Profit. People have to buy new tools, and throw away the old ones.
Why are people flogging this so hard, so that they might succeed by selling everyone below them a dream without substance. —- That is what they are taught to do.
Thanks for showing the list of Diamonds and Emeralds, can you tell me how many IBO’s there are in Australia and then give me a percentage of IBO’s who are Emerald or above, please. Oh and supply facts. —- I doubt the number of IBOs are available. By definition, a very small percentage of of IBOs are Emeralds. Do you know why? In the U.S., the number is 0.0382% for Emeralds only. As far as I know, a number is not available for Emeralds and above, but it wouldn’t be much larger than the above number.
Tex on April 10th, 2009
I took the following from another web site, let me know if it’s not accurate. —- Which site?
Just to break even and make profits you must go well beyond the basic business plan represented. —- Assuming you are following the advice of your upline, yes.
You must market these products to many many friends, and get them to sign up under the same pretense (probable losses of 300 dollars a month?). Not easy. —- Some true, some wild emotion. You have to market products, but that’s what ANY business does. What do you mean by “losses”? Tools or products? Not easy? Most businesses aren’t.
This system relies on you and your downline to spend hundreds of dollars on questionably priced Amway items for as long as they (and you) can afford it, or until all your friends drop out, go broke, or become alienated or your enemy, and dont speak to you anymore, and you have burnt all your bridges. —- Prices are getting better as we speak. In the past, some prices were great, some were okay, some sucked. Upline promotes 100% product and tool loyalty, so overall not a good situation. A MUCH more significant issue is the tool scam.
Let’s be honest, even if they gave away money, the company has such a negative image it’s difficult to trust them, let alone convince your friends to. —- I’ll bet I could make THAT scenario work, and the reputation would change overnight.
So if you’re not yet a “diamond”, how do you make a big profit? —- What do you mean by “big?”
Continuing on from our previous article where we established the basic Network 21 / Amway business plan results in a loss of $300 a month, assuming all personal consumption. —- Again, are you referring to products, tools, or both?
Examining another example given in the presentation, as we understood it:
To make the 7500 points required for the 21% bonus, in your downline you could do the following:
Convince 25 people to spend approximately $1200 every month. or 5 people to spend $6000 dollars a month, on products they probably dont need? Do you know anyone in the world that would spend $6000 on household goods monthly? Dream on. —- I think you misunderstood the presentation.
Lets make this more realistic (but still doubtful). Convince 75 people to make payment of 400 dollars a month (30 thousand dollars total) on these questionable products, and you will have your 7500 points. —- Again, are we talking products only?
Earning 7500 points will grant you the bonus of 21% of $30,000 spent turnover.
$6300! What a payout structure! —- Do you have a better one?
For the amount of effort it would take to get 75 people in your downline, That amount of profit is peanuts. —- Compared to what?
If you did ever manage to get 75 people to sign up to spend 400 dollars a month on Amway products how long do you think they would continue to keep paying 400 dollars a month (losing money) before dropping out, and thus you losing your bonus? Not very long. —- You’re not understanding the plan. Each of those 75 has the same opportunity to sell/sponsor others that you did.
You would have to have part of your brain missing to want to lose hundreds of dollars a month. —- Agreed.
Or the alternative story to sustaining the bonus you could get the 75 people in your downline to get 75 people in their downline, and so on and on. Is this really feasible business? —- Without a tool scam? Yes, but not everyone wants (to do the work) to get 75 people in their downline.
How many leads would you need? —- It depends on whether the people you initially approach get involved, or it takes longer.
Lets be realistic. In MLM, the market for any product will always eventually reach a saturation point, if it hasnt already. —- We are nowhere near saturation, and as you said below, have been around a half century.
Especially if the company has been around for 50 years. —- See above.
However they do say a sucker is born every minute. Fortunately, or unfortunately (depending on your economic and environmental stance), the earth’s population is always expanding. —- Wouldn’t this suggest saturation would be delayed even longer?
The systems outlined might be beneficial for some. There are a thousand other systems and opportunities out there that are much easier and can make you millions, and some are outright scams. Question the facts, investigate all systems yourself, they may be a much easier path to financial freedom. —- Name one.
thechaser on April 10th, 2009
Tex, at least we are in some agreeance that that other post did not present the business the way it should and the author did not really understand the plan.
I wish that the Corp can clean the business out so that people like yourself will feel comfortable building the business because you obiviously believe in that the business can work.
Tex on April 10th, 2009
I doubt I could have explained it after seeing it once, either.
Amway will clean up the mess when enough pressure is applied. It would be nice to have more support from other IBOs rather than them merely wishing.
thechaser on April 10th, 2009
the problem is that not all IBOs feels they are spending too much, I do agree that there are some systems that is just out of this world but I don’t feel the group that I am associated with have pushed the system and tools as much as you have suggested
But with enough pressured being applied I do believe that the corp will clean it up like they did with the UK. I have a group that just started in the UK.
kiwi girl on April 10th, 2009
I too but in NZ have received a call like yours did not say much but only got my number from a referal in aussie tried to access their webstie but have to be a member and be given an id this gave warning bells that I could not go into the website to view any products etc
beware this could be for you if a gunner at sales and recruiting people but nothing comes for free their always a catch
joanna on April 10th, 2009
thechaser, tex
thechaser,
You seem very frustrated, but you never answered my question’s
I can’t believe I am explaining this load of crap from another person who obviously have no idea how the bonuses work nor the business. (your quote thechaser).
you are right, it is a load of crap. I sense your frustration of constanlty having to defend AMWAY. Why if it is so good, it needs be defended?
The “corp” did not clean up AMWAY in the UK…a Judge in a Court of Law did!, why? because it was wrong. Read what happnened, no one except a very few were making money, though every IBO were told that they could. Why can’t someone just say that the chances of making a living from AMWAY let alone retiring rich are not very likely.
AMWAY makes a profit from IBO’s buying the products from them just the same as Coles or Woolworths do by customers going to their stores, except AMWAY’s mark up’s are a lot higher. That’s why it is pushed and pushed to the IBO’s to buy everything from AMWAY, even though the local Supermarket will be cheaper. That’s why people are told tap water is bad, “get a filtration system”, and that vacum cleaner’s don’t work as good as the eight hundred dollar AMWAY one does, when in fact it does. That’s why I am told to drink a energy drink every day, and take vitamins, (and if I had children to give them vitamins too), when I never have yet in my life, but I am so much fitter than the person who is telling this to me.
AMWAY’s only concern is that people keep buying from them at their inflated prices. AMWAY is a retail buisness. Why would they wan’t to stop that. It’s a buisness.
The other’s, the Diamonds and such make money from selling CD’s, Books and Seminars.
As for Adam Gilchrist, everyone has their price. I thought he was a sportsman, but now I know that he is just making money from AMWAY. At least his paycheck is guaranteed. I can’t blame him for that, but when Australia finds out he is selling AMWAY, his reputation it in this country will probably slide.
thechaser on April 11th, 2009
Joanna,
It was a load of crap because if you read my replies you would understand that article was written on opinion about something that was far from factual as well as the little understanding of the plan.
And the reason that we have to defend it is because people write comments such as that puts it on the web and people like you take it as factual when we explain the fact to you, you don’t take it into consideration.
You make a good six figure income right, which is great. So how does it feel to be in the 1% of the entire working population in Australia??? Thats a statistical fact that came out couple of years ago.
And once again in your comments you are associating your experience as the same as everyone. As mentioned in other post, we ask the new people what they currently spend and replace the same amount of money with the products in the catalouges. (core products) if you can buy pasta cheaper at Aldi, Go get it, I don’t care. If you didn’t drink Red Bull before why would you be told to start. There are 6000 products in the range, I think most people can find 10 that they will use monthly.
Did you not read the part about the SA8, so that calculation make the SA8 inflated??? 50 Load for $22 bucks or 75 load for $46???
So now you are saying that Adam Gilchrist is a BAD person when he has been an icon for Australia for so many years. How Sad that you can change your opinion on someone just because they are endorsing Nutriway??? Do you think lowly of Ricky Pointing when he is taking money from Centrum??? Or Grant Hackett from Kelloggs or the Criket team for Sanitarium?? I suppose that make Rhonaldino a Bad person too as well as Asafa powelll who actually use the products as well the AC milan football club or Matt Rogers who was the Aus Union and League Star.
I didn’t realise that after 4 years of education you were guranteed a job or a career path, is that why there are so many people out of work today. You will get as much as you put in.
Kiwii Girl
What site are you going to that needs a code??? http://www.amway.com.au will give you everything you need at RRP. anyone can go and have a look as well as the business center in Auckland (i think)????
Tex on April 11th, 2009
thechaser,
You also have been too scared to post your tool prices, and what the expectations are to buy them/how many, etc.
Are you going to sit back and wait for the various countries to clean up the mess, or get involved? Even if you think you are being treated fairly, the “noise” on the internet will continue to damage Amway’s reputation and YOUR business, even in the UK.
Tex on April 11th, 2009
thechaser,
You make a good six figure income right, which is great. So how does it feel to be in the 1% of the entire working population in Australia??? Thats a statistical fact that came out couple of years ago. —- She probably feels like there is a big red bull’s eye target on her back, because the tool scamming LCK’s know she can afford to buy the tools.
thechaser on April 11th, 2009
thechaser,
Why is the money from the tapes, CD’s and meetings never ever mentioned? – I have mentioned it, I don’t know what others do. We make a loss at some of the functions that we run so I am not sure why you think we make money out of functions.
Why why are the “tools” pushed so hard, why is going to the meetings pushed so hard? – as a business owner you can’t be at different places all at once. I have a UK group at the moment. The teaching can only be done via CDs or information that the corp provides. what do you mean by pushed so hard, I tell the guys something is on. If they are not there 9/10 that they will stop doing the business anyway so I am not going to make them go if they don’t wanna go.
If this works why can’t people just say ” I am have a great buisness called AMWAY, if you join, you will make a lot of money if you want”? – because like your self you still haven’t got a clue that AMWAY is just a company that make the products and distribute te product. It could be another name and there will still be people bagging it because its a SO called ‘PYRAMID SCHEME’
which is not. There are over hundreds of network marketing companies out there. Try googling for ACN. USANA, Maleluca, Herballife, AVON, Nurtrimetics, Tupperware, Mona Vie and the list goes on and you will have similar comments to AMWAY. Its not just the company name but it the association with networking that the problem.
Why can’t I ask to see someone’s books, as I would in any other legit buisness? – because when someone starting a business there is nothing to show for it. Dont forget most people do this part time. If you do this full time then there is a way we can show you the books. Most Platinums and above should be able to show you their books.
Why is that everyone above me is “On Fire”? When a look of their email address group show’s that it’s a lie? – have you not read the other posts. Why don’t you visit a Fogarty’s workshop, or a Swafield’s workshop, or one of Deanes or one of the McKennas. Their rooms are averaging 10 to 30 new prospects everyweek. You are stuck in one that doesn’t seem to be growing and you think thats the business in Sydney. In any given Monday night there will be over 10 to 15 different organisation meeting across sydney. So I would suggest find one that is growing and then make a comment based on that.
Why is it, that a system that is working so well, needs to be changed every couple of months? The systems have not changed, they have been modified to make it easier for the new IBOs to start. There is still a plan to be show, there is still a follow up and there is still a ordering process and so on. If you are referring to he QI process, this was already there in the late 80s just not all the group were were using it. And why do you say its every couple of months. I have only seen 2 in the last 2 years. STP or the QI which is just adding a step before the plan. Thats all.
Why are people flogging this so hard, so that they might succeed by selling everyone below them a dream without substance. – I don’t know, we don’t have a problem getting people to take a look, might just be the people you talk to.
Thanks for showing the list of Diamonds and Emeralds, can you tell me how many IBO’s there are in Australia and then give me a percentage of IBO’s who are Emerald or above, please. Oh and supply facts. – According to the last report I think there is about 140K registered IBOs in Australia. I don’t know about the percentages of Emeralds and above as you can try to get that from the Corp. 1 in every 100 to 150 people will be a platinum and about 1 in every 400 to 600 ppl will be an emerald and about 1 in every 800 to 1000 will be a diamond. That is very loose figures as its just based on perfect scenarios. For example not all registers IBO are active business builders, some actually just like to use the products that you seem to think is inflated. Differences of opinion, thats all. You are right based on what you choose to see and they are right because they are using it and see value.
Tex on April 11th, 2009
joanna,
Which answers appear to be accurate and honest, and which answers appear to be pure BS, mine or thechaser’s?
thechaser on April 11th, 2009
You also have been too scared to post your tool prices, and what the expectations are to buy them/how many, etc. – Have I really, did you not read the post about the cost when you asked about what we tell the IBO the costs. 10CD, 7.5 mp3, 20 BBS, and the bit about the fact more of my guys have MP3 that I have supplied. They are under no pressure to purchase. They will when they want. – post 413, 405
Are you going to sit back and wait for the various countries to clean up the mess, or get involved? Even if you think you are being treated fairly, the “noise” on the internet will continue to damage Amway’s reputation and YOUR business, even in the UK. – do you want me to bag my OWN business and how I am scamming my own people when most of them have MY tools that I purchased?
So now you are saying everything I have said are all lies???
joanna on April 11th, 2009
thechaser,
Where in my post I said that “Adam Gilchrist was a bad person”?
I said “everyone has their price”…hey he is taking care of his buisness. How much is AMWAY paying him to represent NUTRIWAY?, he is not doing it for nothing is he.
thechaser on April 11th, 2009
Joanna;
apologise for paraphrasing, you said his popularity in Australia will ‘probably’ slide; you are making that comment as he has touched a plague or something. So I guess Sandra Bullock and the rest of the world who is sponsored by Amway is now tainted??
And do you think that Adam will endorse a product that he will jepordise his image in Australia if he doesn’t believe it may be a decent product.
And do you seriously think that he that stupid to put money in front of his NAME as per sa. His image is what will bring him the endorsements. I bet he has the ability to find a host of companies out their that would want to use him for endorsement. He just happened to pick Amway as one of them and I don’t think that will taint his image.
thechaser on April 11th, 2009
joanna;
it is fairly obvious that you have already made up your mind about AMWAY and how evil it is and you have seem to not taken any notice of any of the answers that I have replied to your questions.
You have yet to tell us how long you have being ‘in’ the business to know all the ‘inside’ information to the running of a corporation that is currently in 80 countries. I have respect for Tex at least he does know quite a lot of whats going on. We may have a differences of opinion in some aspect but I am ok with that.
Lauren on April 11th, 2009
Amway is the best opportunity around in the world today!
Firstly how can anyone form an opinion from someone who has no idea and hasent even been involved in the business?
This business did a turn over of 7 billion last year…so does it work???
THis business is currently is DEBT FREE…so does it work?
If you are not interested…it doesnt matter because we only look for motivated people who are looking not people who want to give unknowing views/ un valid opinions on blogs to discuss how bad this amazing opportunity when they dont know what they are talking about…. e.g would you ask a nurse how to build your house?….no well why are you asking someone with no idea what the business is about, i urge you to talk to ur upline and relate to people in your team, this is not a scam.
Lauren, some one in the best business in the world!!!!! on my way to retirement at 20.
Tex on April 12th, 2009
thechaser,
Did you include ALL costs, such as hotels, airplane/gas, meals in your break even calculation? 413 is joanna’s.
Tex on April 12th, 2009
do you want me to bag my OWN business and how I am scamming my own people when most of them have MY tools that I purchased? —- Did I say I wanted you to do that?
So now you are saying everything I have said are all lies??? —- Not everything, just enough of them to cause significant distortion of the truth, just like the LCKs do.
thechaser on April 12th, 2009
Plane tickets for us when you buy smart is about $59 yo $79 each way.
Hotel is a about $70 per night pending where you stay, usually overnight in a self contained apartment and thats only twice a year as we have local major too.
Meals are BYO, so it max of $50 for the weekend. You don’t have to buy out everytime you travel.
There are smart way of keeping cost down, and dumb way of running businesses. Some people are dumb and do nothing and whing about why nothing is happening.
joanna on April 12th, 2009
Tex,
I will answer your questions. When I have time.
Lauren,
Everything that you just blogged, is told to every single person who is approached by AMWAY.
Tell me why is AMWAY the best opportunity in the world today?
Just read what you are SAYING, everyone who is introduced to AMAYWAY is told the same thing, that this is the best buisness in the world.
I was involved in the buisness, no one makes money except the people at the top, and they joined twenty or thirty years ago in this country.
What do you mean by DEBT FREE, It’s not you, it’s AMWAY that is debt free.
are you making a income? do you spend more on AMWAY product’s than you get from AMWAY income?
Take it for what it is, embrace Lauren, join it, defend it. Meet in five years and show me how much you made from AMWAY.
I’d say even the defender’s of AMWAY would be getting a litttle bit embarrased of your claims “on your way to retirement at 20″ right now,
thechaser on April 12th, 2009
Joanna:
Everything that you just blogged, is told to every single person who is approached by AMWAY.
Tell me why is AMWAY the best opportunity in the world today? – because most other businesses are adding to your spending where the Amway product range REPLACES the products that you currently use which means its NOT and additional spending. Joanna, you don’t read or dont take any notice of the comments.
Just read what you are SAYING, everyone who is introduced to AMAYWAY is told the same thing, that this is the best buisness in the world. – name one other business that you can start with equal opps for $100 that doesnt require you to spend on things you don’t need.
I was involved in the buisness, no one makes money except the people at the top, and they joined twenty or thirty years ago in this country. – you have seen the smallest bit of the business and you claim to be a know all. Have you been to a Mckennas function, Deane Function, Buchames, McGreadies, or Salas, Coxs, and many others. There are people making money NOW. Once again it show you how you still have no idea how the plan works. Someone who starts 20 years ago having a similar structure to you today will make the same money; because the money stops at the person does the work. Check the plan again before you make a comment like that.
What do you mean by DEBT FREE, It’s not you, it’s AMWAY that is debt free.
are you making a income? do you spend more on AMWAY product’s than you get from AMWAY income? – How does buying washing powder to wash cloth as loss in business??? How does buying XS drinks for $2.50 instead of buying Red Bull for $3.00 equate to a loss in business?? You ask all these question yet have no reply to our comments.
Take it for what it is, embrace Lauren, join it, defend it. Meet in five years and show me how much you made from AMWAY. – I will, if you are stil around. make that three years and we both go on a trip for six month, and discuss all the problems with the business.
I’d say even the defender’s of AMWAY would be getting a litttle bit embarrased of your claims “on your way to retirement at 20″ right now,
- I am not embarrassed, one of our guys did call it retirement at 21, he makes about $5000 a month and lives at home. So yeah he can retire and learn to invest. Oh by the way that was last year.
joanna on April 12th, 2009
Tex, thechaser, and Lauren,
Are you making a living from AMWAY?
Are you Diamonds or Emerald’s?
If so can I google your real names?
How much money do you get just from AMWAY?
Plain truth guy’s, and back it up.
The only reason I am even writing this is because someone told my friend that they would never have to work again if they followed this plan for in next 2 to 5 years.
From the fact’s it is nothing but a lie.
Tex, you sound like a smart person, don’t defend it anymore…use your talent’s somewhere else, some where that you will succeed.
Thechaser,
Yes, yes, keep defending AMWAY, go DIAMOND, enjoy your HELL :
Lauren, enjoy your retirerment, it will happen one day.
Joanna. xxx
joanna on April 12th, 2009
thechaser,
I make over 5k a month. I can’t retire. Can you back up your claims that he only makes his income from AMWAY?,
joanna on April 12th, 2009
thechaser,
You dickhead, Craig Deanne has been involed in AMAWY for the last twenty years. Check your ‘Profile of Success” You will get there one day.
joanna on April 12th, 2009
thechaser,
If this buisness was so fantastic no-one would need to defended it, would they”?
But you do and so does Tex.
Tex on April 12th, 2009
thechaser,
It’s not just these costs for major functions, but throughout the year as well. Don’t forget babysitting, either.
Tex on April 12th, 2009
joanna,
You STILL haven’t answered my question, yet keep asking questions yourself.
Are you making a living from AMWAY? —- No.
Are you Diamonds or Emerald’s? —- No.
If so can I google your real names? —- N/A.
How much money do you get just from AMWAY? —- Not much.
Plain truth guy’s, and back it up. —- N/A.
The only reason I am even writing this is because someone told my friend that they would never have to work again if they followed this plan for in next 2 to 5 years. —- They lied to your friend.
From the fact’s it is nothing but a lie. —- Agree.
Tex, you sound like a smart person, don’t defend it anymore…use your talent’s somewhere else, some where that you will succeed. —- I’m NOT defending the business as it is currently being run, you need to click on my name and READ my site. I am using whatever talent I have to CHANGE it, so the tool scam is shut down.
thechaser on April 13th, 2009
thechaser,
You dickhead, Craig Deanne has been involed in AMAWY for the last twenty years. Check your ‘Profile of Success” You will get there one day. – i already know that but you fail to mention that he also just had a new Emerald in Feb, plus a host of about 12 new platniums out of the one business group. Calling me names doesn’t bother me because once again it showed that you didn’t read the post so who is the dickhead. The point of that post was asking you whether you have being to any of those groups to make an assumptions that no one can retire from the Businesses.
thechaser,
I make over 5k a month. I can’t retire. Can you back up your claims that he only makes his income from AMWAY?, – Once again you are proving to the rest of the world that you are a real dickhead by not reading the post. I said he lives at home and has the ability to retire.
The business needs to be defended from dickheads like yourself who obviously do not read the replies and only pick out what you want to read and see and reply to it.
Tex is doing something to make the business better, but you Joanna who read and listen to other people’s opinion and choose what you want to hear. You made a blatant statement about price, I gave you an answer. You had no replies because either didn’t read it or just want to ignore it for the sake of ignoring it.
Secondly, how do you know that I wanted to go diamond???? A Platinumship is good enough to get what I wanted out of the business. You assume everyone wants to go diamond???
thechaser on April 13th, 2009
Tex
It’s not just these costs for major functions, but throughout the year as well. Don’t forget babysitting, either. – I know that, it was mentioned in one of my earlier posts that there 3 to 4 majors and 6 BDS, most are local and only 2 you really have to travel. In fact, I can stay local with all of them. So that cuts cost down dramatically.
Here is my problem that everyone says its a loss when you have baby sitter. If a couple goes out for a night to the movies, and have a baby sitter is that a loss to their household. Yes its not a BUISNESS so we wont consider it as an out going. Everyone have different priorities. There are some people who just simply enjoy being around other people and the environment that it provides. I don’t know, and I am not here to judge.
BTW, our Regular workshops each week usually run it at just break even for the room hire so there is NO profit in there. I will check out the cost of hiring the conventions centers to see how much profit is made out of it. I will let you know.
thechaser on April 13th, 2009
Joanna;
Why don’t you check out some of these FACTS
Average Super of Average Australian wont allow them to live comfortably
READ the article .. http://www.olderworkers.com.au/index.php?news_id=289
Fact – there have been people who have retired from building a networking business over the 40 years and are still retired even now. You just choose to ignore it.
Fact – There are ladies who build an AMWAY business because they like Artistry, so it more like a AVON, Nutrimetic business. Their husband are NOT in the business.
FACT – Uni students don’t make money while they are studying so there is no difference in a Business. Be prepared not to make a lot of money in the first 3 months. IF you dumped $300k into gloria Jeans and didn’t make a profit in the first 3 month would you just throw the towel in. Why don’t you ask a franchise owner of a Bakers delight and see how much they are making. I bet you will see a different franchisee every 4 – 5 years.
Fact – there are thing I said that are not Tape talk. I already knew a lot of these concepts prior to the exposure to the business. When I saw the business it just made sense. People are networkers, we network, thats what we do. If you know how Carl Renberg started the company 70 years ago then you might have an understanding about the industry.
This will be my last post, as I realized that I have presented my case with enough facts for an intelligent person to make a decision. I have read Tex’s materials so I can understand where he stand however that’s not the same experience but it does not make him wrong as he does have a lot of information presented based on other people’s experiences.
Joanna, you have being involved with one small small group in Sydney and you think you know everything about the business. Its like going to a classical concert and walking away thinking that you know everything about how an orchestral piece is created. You had no idea that there are about 10 to 12 different groups in operation in Sydney alone, yet you make statements as if you know everything about the business.
I am happy to discuss this further via email if you want but this is a total waste of time as you are not one to read the replies to your accusations.
Tex, I am doing what I can to make sure our new IBOs are not going into unnecessary debt by making unwise choices. However I am not going to stop building a business because there are other people groups that are not doing the right thing. I don’t know who they are but I am sure if you look hard enough there are crooks in every industry. Like I said, I was trained in Sales and I have had Team Leaders tell us to lie just to make sales. Because once you are gone there is nothing they can do, but we MUST write the sale. Now that is Crooked.
My email is info@healthykicks.com.au
Good luck everyone
Tex on April 13th, 2009
thechaser,
I’m not talking about only you individually, I’m talking about the typical IBO. There are probably other major functions from different LOS groups going on locally, and it would be quite easy to include crossline groups, by either not including LOS specific information for major functions or having the other groups come into the sessions later, after this information is covered, using a color coded ticket for example.
Do people typically go out several nights a week for a movie? Doesn’t this fact make it MORE important to hold down costs in other areas, and not make several TIMES more from tools than Amway?
How many people, how much is charged, and how much is the room? I’ve seen several other estimates of major function costs, and large amounts of money are made.
thechaser on April 13th, 2009
thechaser,
I’m not talking about only you individually, I’m talking about the typical IBO. There are probably other major functions from different LOS groups going on locally, and it would be quite easy to include crossline groups, by either not including LOS specific information for major functions or having the other groups come into the sessions later, after this information is covered, using a color coded ticket for example. – i agree, in our Functions we actually have three diamondship together. The last meeting we had was to speak to all the groups and getting everyone on board using the same teaching method so across the board everyone can go to any workshop or function under IDA and no need to travel. In fact Some of our people go to the Fogarty’s because it more local, and the one in Brisbane goes to the buchamps and Mckennas. Completely differnt LOS but same teaching. By doing that and have everyone unified will decrease the costs of travelling.
Do people typically go out several nights a week for a movie? Doesn’t this fact make it MORE important to hold down costs in other areas, and not make several TIMES more from tools than Amway? – BDS is only once a month, we must do things differently, but I am usaually home by 9 and done 6 plans. I do plans in lunch hours and after work. My wife does the products and ditto follow ups on weekends. So there is min Baby sitting, we try to teach our group the same thing. Work around what you can and can’t do, and avoid uneccessary costs.
How many people, how much is charged, and how much is the room? I’ve seen several other estimates of major function costs, and large amounts of money are made. – I will check that out for you, but the last Few BDS we have they just broke even I believe. I will let you know. I will email you.
Tex on April 13th, 2009
Are you saying some of the different LOS groups getting together are non-IDA?
So you normally show the plan without your wife, and are taught this by the upline?
thechaser on April 13th, 2009
Sorry, Under IDA with different LOS. They use to do it all under the one banner untill it got too big. N21, IDA, interlink and all have one FEC. Then when it group varios diamond took it on their wings and did their own things. There were people teaching different things even under IDA
my upline built it on his own and has rarely showed a plan with his wife so do I.
most of his leaders show plans on their own. Wives does the support with products and ditto set ups when need it or some wifes show plans. This is done across OUR organisation. Thats why I have never thought of using a baby sitter. My wife supports me by looking after the home front.
Tex on April 14th, 2009
You mean it got too big to hold meetings together, even though they were in different cities, or too big to hold them together in a single city?
I hope you recognize the guidance to show the plan by yourself is rare.
thechaser on April 14th, 2009
too big to hold them in place, I think that when different diamonds started to do their own FEC and functions.
I only know what I have been shown, I can understand that its a rare teaching but it seems to work well for us becuase it doesn’t put too much pressure on the family.
I remember Craig Deane and a few other use to do their plans on their own, Hargreave, McKennas, Clarke and a few others. Many of them talk about leaving their wife home and building the business. It may be an Oz thing, I don’t know.
joanna on April 14th, 2009
thechaser, tex,
So you have left this blog, that’s OK, though now that I have some time I will answer your question’s as best that I can, and from my own personal experience.
I said,
Why is the money from the tapes, CD’s and meetings never ever mentioned?
You said,
I have mentioned it, I don’t know what others do. We make a loss at some of the functions that we run so I am not sure why you think we make money out of functions.
I say,
Does that mean that you make a loss at some of the functions you make a profit at most? Yes you have mentioned it, but from my personal experience, making money from the CD’s and Books is never mentioned.
I said,
Why why are the “tools” pushed so hard, why is going to the meetings pushed so hard?
You said
as a business owner you can’t be at different places all at once. I have a UK group at the moment. The teaching can only be done via CDs or information that the corp provides. what do you mean by pushed so hard, I tell the guys something is on. If they are not there 9/10 that they will stop doing the business anyway so I am not going to make them go if they don’t wanna go.
I say
Are you a buisness really a buisness owner? What do you own? Why do they have to buy the CD’s? If they succeed, don’t you succeed? Why does there have to be a different CD every week,
I said,
If this works why can’t people just say ” I am have a great buisness called AMWAY, if you join, you will make a lot of money if you want”?
You say,
because like your self you still haven’t got a clue that AMWAY is just a company that make the products and distribute te product. It could be another name and there will still be people bagging it because its a SO called ‘PYRAMID SCHEME’
which is not. There are over hundreds of network marketing companies out there. Try googling for ACN. USANA, Maleluca, Herballife, AVON, Nurtrimetics, Tupperware, Mona Vie and the list goes on and you will have similar comments to AMWAY. Its not just the company name but it the association with networking that the problem.
I say,
I never said that AMWAY was a Pyramid Scheme. From my own experience, it’s the IBO’s that are the problem.
I said,
Why can’t I ask to see someone’s books, as I would in any other legit buisness? – because when someone starting a business there is nothing to show for it.
You said,
Dont forget most people do this part time. If you do this full time then there is a way we can show you the books. Most Platinums and above should be able to show you their books.
I say,
So everyone must sell this buisness on the blind faith, even though they are not making money from it or could even be losing money. They still must tell their prospects that they could retire in two to five years, when themselves will never even come close.
I hope that your right about the Platinum’s, though from what I have seen I doub’t it.
I said,
Why is that everyone above me is “On Fire”? When a look of their email address group show’s that it’s a lie? – have you not read the other posts.
You said,
Why don’t you visit a Fogarty’s workshop, or a Swafield’s workshop, or one of Deanes or one of the McKennas. Their rooms are averaging 10 to 30 new prospects everyweek. You are stuck in one that doesn’t seem to be growing and you think thats the business in Sydney. In any given Monday night there will be over 10 to 15 different organisation meeting across sydney. So I would suggest find one that is growing and then make a comment based on that.
I say,
Where did you get the average from? How can you back your figure’s up?
Are you saying that AMWAY is not one company, but different group’s or families running completely separate buisnesses?
Are you saying that there are bad AMWAY groups? if so why doesn’t AMWAY close them down, or doesn’t AMWAY have any control over whay their people say and do?
If your figures are true it means that a lot of people are not taking up the buisness in the Sydney area or the area is saturated with people trying to make money from AMWAY. 10 to 15 groups averaging 10 to 30 prospects a week, how long has this been going on for? months, years, decades…do the math’s
I said,
Why is it, that a system that is working so well, needs to be changed every couple of months? The systems have not changed, they have been modified to make it easier for the new IBOs to start. There is still a plan to be show, there is still a follow up and there is still a ordering process and so on. If you are referring to he QI process, this was already there in the late 80s just not all the group were were using it. And why do you say its every couple of months. I have only seen 2 in the last 2 years. STP or the QI which is just adding a step before the plan. Thats all.
I say,
Modified is just another way of saying changed.
I said,
Why are people flogging this so hard, so that they might succeed by selling everyone below them a dream without substance.
You said,
I don’t know, we don’t have a problem getting people to take a look, might just be the people you talk to.
I say,
If you mentioned AMWAY first would they still look?
I said,
Thanks for showing the list of Diamonds and Emeralds, can you tell me how many IBO’s there are in Australia and then give me a percentage of IBO’s who are Emerald or above, please. Oh and supply facts.
You said,
According to the last report I think there is about 140K registered IBOs in Australia. I don’t know about the percentages of Emeralds and above as you can try to get that from the Corp. 1 in every 100 to 150 people will be a platinum and about 1 in every 400 to 600 ppl will be an emerald and about 1 in every 800 to 1000 will be a diamond. That is very loose figures as its just based on perfect scenarios. For example not all registers IBO are active business builders, some actually just like to use the products that you seem to think is inflated. Differences of opinion, thats all. You are right based on what you choose to see and they are right because they are using it and see value.
I say,
So the figures are hypothetical and more that likely not even close. From what I have read about the recent AMWAY UK ruling (it’s not hard to google) only .01 of one percent of IBO’s were Diamonds.
I also say,
the “dickhead” comment from me was totaly uncalled for and I do very much aplogise, frustration is no excuse.
joanna on April 14th, 2009
thechaser,
You said,
Joanna;
Why don’t you check out some of these FACTS
Average Super of Average Australian wont allow them to live comfortably
READ the article .. http://www.olderworkers.com.au/index.php?news_id=289
Fact – there have been people who have retired from building a networking business over the 40 years and are still retired even now. You just choose to ignore it.
I say,
Are you saying that you have a better chance to live comfortably if you join AMWAY instead of of investing in property or superanuation? One link is not providing facts.
Fact – There are ladies who build an AMWAY business because they like Artistry, so it more like a AVON, Nutrimetic business. Their husband are NOT in the business.
I say,
There’s no reason to doubt that.
FACT – Uni students don’t make money while they are studying so there is no difference in a Business. Be prepared not to make a lot of money in the first 3 months. IF you dumped $300k into gloria Jeans and didn’t make a profit in the first 3 month would you just throw the towel in. Why don’t you ask a franchise owner of a Bakers delight and see how much they are making. I bet you will see a different franchisee every 4 – 5 years.
I say,
I don’t know about Gloria Jeans, or Baker’s Delight (maybe they are retiring every 4 to 5 years, people come to them, they don’t approach people and tell them they have something to show them but can’t say what) but I know I would be checking the books before I invested $300K, are you saying AMWAY is a better proposition. I can’t argue this one because you are not supplying any facts. Just statement’s that you have probably learn’t parrot fashion from someone else in your ogranisation.
Fact – there are thing I said that are not Tape talk. I already knew a lot of these concepts prior to the exposure to the business. When I saw the business it just made sense. People are networkers, we network, thats what we do. If you know how Carl Renberg started the company 70 years ago then you might have an understanding about the industry.
I say,
Can’t argue that one yet.
This will be my last post, as I realized that I have presented my case with enough facts for an intelligent person to make a decision.
……………………………………………………………………………..
I say,
thechaser, facts are documented evidence, so far you have not provided anything to support your “facts”
…………………………………………………………………………………………
(the rest of thechaser’s paragraph)
I have read Tex’s materials so I can understand where he stand however that’s not the same experience but it does not make him wrong as he does have a lot of information presented based on other people’s experiences.
Joanna, you have being involved with one small small group in Sydney and you think you know everything about the business. Its like going to a classical concert and walking away thinking that you know everything about how an orchestral piece is created. You had no idea that there are about 10 to 12 different groups in operation in Sydney alone, yet you make statements as if you know everything about the business.
I say,
I can only comment on what I have seen,
(thechaser’s comments)
I am happy to discuss this further via email if you want but this is a total waste of time as you are not one to read the replies to your accusations.
Tex, I am doing what I can to make sure our new IBOs are not going into unnecessary debt by making unwise choices. However I am not going to stop building a business because there are other people groups that are not doing the right thing. I don’t know who they are but I am sure if you look hard enough there are crooks in every industry. Like I said, I was trained in Sales and I have had Team Leaders tell us to lie just to make sales. Because once you are gone there is nothing they can do, but we MUST write the sale. Now that is Crooked.
My email is info@healthykicks.com.au
Good luck everyone
joanna on April 14th, 2009
tex,
I belive that your answers’s are the most accurate and honest (though it would be hard to be honest and build this when this companies reputation preceedes it) If thechaser could provide evidence to his facts that would be fine to.
I hope this was questions you wanted answered, if not please refresh my mind.
Busy, busy days.
Joanna
thechaser on April 15th, 2009
OK, one last reply… this is justified as the questions are valid
thechaser, tex,
So you have left this blog, that’s OK, though now that I have some time I will answer your question’s as best that I can, and from my own personal experience.
I said,
Why is the money from the tapes, CD’s and meetings never ever mentioned?
You said,
I have mentioned it, I don’t know what others do. We make a loss at some of the functions that we run so I am not sure why you think we make money out of functions.
I say,
Does that mean that you make a loss at some of the functions you make a profit at most? Yes you have mentioned it, but from my personal experience, making money from the CD’s and Books is never mentioned. – I can appreciate that it wasn’t mentioned, personallly I knew about the 2nd income at our second meeting. It wasn’t hidden from me so I can only speak from my experience. Our group is an Emeraldship so we don’t do as many function as a diamond would but the most would only be breaking even. We are fairly careful with the prices we set. Believe it or not, we don’t make any money out of the brochures that we sell. It purely at cost. We supply templates for those who wants to find a cheaper price elsewhere.
I said,
Why why are the “tools” pushed so hard, why is going to the meetings pushed so hard?
You said
as a business owner you can’t be at different places all at once. I have a UK group at the moment. The teaching can only be done via CDs or information that the corp provides. what do you mean by pushed so hard, I tell the guys something is on. If they are not there 9/10 that they will stop doing the business anyway so I am not going to make them go if they don’t wanna go.
I say
Are you a buisness really a buisness owner? What do you own? Why do they have to buy the CD’s? If they succeed, don’t you succeed? Why does there have to be a different CD every week, – how do you define business owner. In my business there is a turn over, it CAN actually be sold once its built just like any other business. No it doesn’t have a shop front, but the turn over is still there. We just started a NZ group and its an expense to fly over there and teach a group so in time yes it will pay me back, but I won’t know that till they break 21%. Now if they succeed, I MAY succeed, based on my structure. If I only help ONE person reach 21% and they are structured 6 to 8 bonus leg wide. I make bucklies… and yeah. thats mean NOTHING. BUT it will allow me to pick up bigger bonues when I sponsor wide. Thats why its a fair playing field. And when I reach 3250pv on side volume then I wil pick up the 4% over ride.
I said,
If this works why can’t people just say ” I am have a great buisness called AMWAY, if you join, you will make a lot of money if you want”?
You say,
because like your self you still haven’t got a clue that AMWAY is just a company that make the products and distribute te product. It could be another name and there will still be people bagging it because its a SO called ‘PYRAMID SCHEME’
which is not. There are over hundreds of network marketing companies out there. Try googling for ACN. USANA, Maleluca, Herballife, AVON, Nurtrimetics, Tupperware, Mona Vie and the list goes on and you will have similar comments to AMWAY. Its not just the company name but it the association with networking that the problem.
I say,
I never said that AMWAY was a Pyramid Scheme. From my own experience, it’s the IBO’s that are the problem. – I agree, and I didn’t say you said its a Pyramid, I meant there are many others who are ignorant of the plan and calls it a pyramid without even looking. And all because ‘i knew someone who was in AMWAY 10 years ago’. thats the usual reponse.
I said,
Why can’t I ask to see someone’s books, as I would in any other legit buisness? – because when someone starting a business there is nothing to show for it.
You said,
Dont forget most people do this part time. If you do this full time then there is a way we can show you the books. Most Platinums and above should be able to show you their books.
I say,
So everyone must sell this buisness on the blind faith, even though they are not making money from it or could even be losing money. They still must tell their prospects that they could retire in two to five years, when themselves will never even come close. – its not blind faith as there are people who is living the life that they said they have. I watched my sponsor play golf everyday for 5 years and travelled all over the world before I asked him what he was doing.
I hope that your right about the Platinum’s, though from what I have seen I doub’t it. – you really should meet a different group of people.
I said,
Why is that everyone above me is “On Fire”? When a look of their email address group show’s that it’s a lie? – have you not read the other posts.
You said,
Why don’t you visit a Fogarty’s workshop, or a Swafield’s workshop, or one of Deanes or one of the McKennas. Their rooms are averaging 10 to 30 new prospects everyweek. You are stuck in one that doesn’t seem to be growing and you think thats the business in Sydney. In any given Monday night there will be over 10 to 15 different organisation meeting across sydney. So I would suggest find one that is growing and then make a comment based on that.
I say,
Where did you get the average from? How can you back your figure’s up? – one of my guys just came back from one of their groups in Brisbane and they had min 10 new prospect EVERY week. Its a growing group. (that was two seperate workshops)
Are you saying that AMWAY is not one company, but different group’s or families running completely separate buisnesses? – AMWAY is one company that distribute and make the products but there are SEVERAL groups of LOS or LOA (line of affiliation) and they all do things just that little bit different. eg. explain the plan differently, some have retail focus and some don’t. some are focused on big ticket items and some are emma page or artistry or nutriway. Thats why you can have so many different people experiencing different approaches by the same Company per sa.
UK is the only place that I know of where AMWAY has FULL control of the plan. I think is very good. The new guy I started is excited because its more profitable and the products are CHEAPER.
Are you saying that there are bad AMWAY groups? if so why doesn’t AMWAY close them down, or doesn’t AMWAY have any control over whay their people say and do? – to the first part, yes. there are some groups that don’t operate ethically. AMWAY won’t know about it unless they hear about it. We are individual contractors of AMWAY and not employees. Unless they know about whats going on in the field they can’t fix it. EG back in the 80, people use to be invited to BBQ and then all of the sudden out comes a white board. That to me is unethical. but it did happen so we can’t deny people’s experience. Amway did terminate several diamonds and crowns over unethical behaviours. Trevor Chatham, a crown in europe, several diamonds in US for various reasons. And few in Australia and Emeralds. You are in a workshop that experienced the shock wave from the termination. hence the low numbers.
If your figures are true it means that a lot of people are not taking up the buisness in the Sydney area or the area is saturated with people trying to make money from AMWAY. 10 to 15 groups averaging 10 to 30 prospects a week, how long has this been going on for? months, years, decades…do the math’s – not sure about being saturated, because there are still people joining the business. the other thing is not all prospects join. new people come and go. and the network takes you anywhere. by the time I am finish typing this blog there will be over 200 babyies borned. the population continues to grow and there is a whole generation that doesn’t even know about AMWAY and there is a whole host of people that know AMWAY for the products and would love to use it again. I just had two more started wanting to be just customers. Wont buy much but the did sign.
I said,
Why is it, that a system that is working so well, needs to be changed every couple of months? The systems have not changed, they have been modified to make it easier for the new IBOs to start. There is still a plan to be show, there is still a follow up and there is still a ordering process and so on. If you are referring to he QI process, this was already there in the late 80s just not all the group were were using it. And why do you say its every couple of months. I have only seen 2 in the last 2 years. STP or the QI which is just adding a step before the plan. Thats all.
I say,
Modified is just another way of saying changed. – point taken, however with everything in busines or sporting field if one doesn’t change or improve on what they are doing then they will be left behind. The plan never changes, just the way we do business. The whole QI concept is to protect the IBOs, its HARD to teach someone how to do a one on one.
I said,
Why are people flogging this so hard, so that they might succeed by selling everyone below them a dream without substance.
You said,
I don’t know, we don’t have a problem getting people to take a look, might just be the people you talk to.
I say,
If you mentioned AMWAY first would they still look? – some will some wont, i have mentioned AMWAY in the past and they still signed up. Most people have a perception of AMWAY but they may not all be factual nor have the had personal experience with it. Most of the time is just about what they have heard which is like trying to explain a painting over the phone.
I said,
Thanks for showing the list of Diamonds and Emeralds, can you tell me how many IBO’s there are in Australia and then give me a percentage of IBO’s who are Emerald or above, please. Oh and supply facts.
You said,
According to the last report I think there is about 140K registered IBOs in Australia. I don’t know about the percentages of Emeralds and above as you can try to get that from the Corp. 1 in every 100 to 150 people will be a platinum and about 1 in every 400 to 600 ppl will be an emerald and about 1 in every 800 to 1000 will be a diamond. That is very loose figures as its just based on perfect scenarios. For example not all registers IBO are active business builders, some actually just like to use the products that you seem to think is inflated. Differences of opinion, thats all. You are right based on what you choose to see and they are right because they are using it and see value.
I say,
So the figures are hypothetical and more that likely not even close. From what I have read about the recent AMWAY UK ruling (it’s not hard to google) only .01 of one percent of IBO’s were Diamonds. – to give you a factual example, in our emerald ship there is about 2000 people in it (registered) the average pv is about 20 – 30 per ibo, that means there is a large no that us very very little products and do nothing with the business. therefore the % that you see as being successful is a bit out of wack for that reason. In this emerald ship there is also another emeraldship and about 11 – 12 platinums. and here lies another problem in stats, there are 3 platinum ships… one has over 800, one has 500 and the other have about 150. All platinums… in fact one of the is heading emerald. The reason why one is still a platinum is because its all in one leg and he hasn’t build enough width so does that mean his success rate as a platinum is 1 in 800 and the other are 1 in 150.
The fact is this, 1 in 4 that we sign up will do something, one will sign and do nothing, and one will sign for just products. and one will sign and give it a poke and the other will go after it. I have seen it happen myself. Its just life. In my apprentiship, we started with 79, and only 16 graduated.. and now only about 3 that I know of stayed in the industry. (and some of us make peanuts)
I also say,
the “dickhead” comment from me was totaly uncalled for and I do very much aplogise, frustration is no excuse. – thank you. I appreciate that. I apologise likewise
Tex on April 15th, 2009
too big to hold them in place, I think that when different diamonds started to do their own FEC and functions. —- That’s my point from yesterday, with the color coded tickets. Many more people wouldn’t have to travel as far, and many could even go home after the sessions are over.
I only know what I have been shown, I can understand that its a rare teaching but it seems to work well for us becuase it doesn’t put too much pressure on the family. —- So you’re saying this is not only taught at meetings, but on tapes/CDs as well?
I remember Craig Deane and a few other use to do their plans on their own, Hargreave, McKennas, Clarke and a few others. Many of them talk about leaving their wife home and building the business. It may be an Oz thing, I don’t know. —- I have heard this for distant groups, but not for local plans.
Tex on April 15th, 2009
By the way, you should also check out Doug Wead’s blog for this tool discussion: “http://dougwead.wordpress.com/”, not to mention mine: “http://texsquixtarblog.blogspot.com/2008/03/9-steps-of-truth.html”
thechaser on April 15th, 2009
too big to hold them in place, I think that when different diamonds started to do their own FEC and functions. —- That’s my point from yesterday, with the color coded tickets. Many more people wouldn’t have to travel as far, and many could even go home after the sessions are over. – TOTALLY AGREE. THE WHOLE SYSTEM SHOULD BE LOOKED AT SO THAT EVERY GROUP CAN WORK TOGETHER. ITS A EGO THING AND I AM SURE THAT SOME OF THE DIAMONDS SAW AN OPPS TO MAKE MONEY, I HAVE HEARD ABOUT THE SOME OF TH BRITT GROUP IN EARLY 90S.
I only know what I have been shown, I can understand that its a rare teaching but it seems to work well for us becuase it doesn’t put too much pressure on the family. —- So you’re saying this is not only taught at meetings, but on tapes/CDs as well? – SEE, WE ARE USING THE QI SYSTEM AND IT TEACHES US TO HAVE THE FREEDOM TO DO THEM ONE ON ONE AND NOT A COUPLE. WIFES CAN DO IT AS WELL AS MEN. THATS FROM THE CDS. AND YOU WILL HEAR THAT MOST OF THE QIS ARE DONE JUST ONE PERSON.
I remember Craig Deane and a few other use to do their plans on their own, Hargreave, McKennas, Clarke and a few others. Many of them talk about leaving their wife home and building the business. It may be an Oz thing, I don’t know. —- I have heard this for distant groups, but not for local plans. – PERHAPS, BUT THATS NOT WHAT WE ARE DOING AT THE MOMENT. REFER TO MY LAST REPLY
realibo on April 15th, 2009
I have flicked through many responses. i am and have been an active IBO for 6 years. Amway is in aust is Amway. always has been. It has a great reputation for paying large sums of money for your referral to others to purchase a product. Simply it is a referral business. For your referral you will get paid if that person does buy the product.
Why is there so much discussion about WHAT IS AMWAY> You seem confused and clouded by your own thoughts and misconceptions.
What this type of business an offer you – a chance to make more money! Change your place of purchase -refer the process enough over time and get paid ! I still receive a payment for referrals i made 6 years ago!
It is not complicated – PEOPLE ARE COMPLICATED!
It is not a scam PEOPLE may SCAM YOU!
It is not a cult for if it was THEY WOULD ALL DO AS THEY ARE TOLD! and many IBO”S will tell you if they were honest THEY DID NOT SUCCEED BECAUSE THEY DID NOTHING TO SUCCEED.
Move on and let it be or get involved and make a difference to your own life. If not this then something – you do not have the rest of your life to figure it out – ACT NOW or die with REGRET!
Try posting some good and worthwhile information – some joy – because you are cramming up the highways with your crap. life is full of it enough.
joanna on April 15th, 2009
to realibo, tex, thechaser,
realibo,
Did you just embarrass yourself and AMWAY, I think you did…the company that you as an IBO represent. Read on.
You said,
I have flicked through many responses. i am and have been an active IBO for 6 years.
I say,
Whose response’s have you flicked through. Capital letter after a full stop. After six years as an IBO what level have you attained?
You said,
Amway is in aust is Amway. always has been. It has a great reputation for paying large sums of money for your referral to others to purchase a product. Simply it is a referral business. For your referral you will get paid if that person does buy the product.
I say,
Yes your right, AMWAY is in Australia, but it came from the USA (AMWAY – AMERICAN WAY). It has a very negative reputation in this country and others. Oh so it’s not about moving products, it’s about making referral’s. That’s a new one for me. What large sums of money have you been paid?
You said
Why is there so much discussion about WHAT IS AMWAY> You seem confused and clouded by your own thoughts and misconceptions.
I say,
Read my response above. Oh and I am not confused.
You say,
What this type of business an offer you – a chance to make more money! Change your place of purchase -refer the process enough over time and get paid ! I still receive a payment for referrals i made 6 years ago!
I say,
All business’s are there to make more money, I think that’s why it’s called a business. What referrals did you make six years ago? How much payment do you still receive?
You say,
It is not complicated – PEOPLE ARE COMPLICATED!
I say,
No it’s not complicated.
You say,
It is not a scam PEOPLE may SCAM YOU!
I say,
So it’s the people in AMWAY that are out to scam you?
You say,
It is not a cult for if it was THEY WOULD ALL DO AS THEY ARE TOLD! and many IBO”S will tell you if they were honest THEY DID NOT SUCCEED BECAUSE THEY DID NOTHING TO SUCCEED.
I say,
Where have I ever mentioned that is a cult? Are you saying that most IBO’s are not honest?
You say,
Move on and let it be or get involved and make a difference to your own life. If not this then something – you do not have the rest of your life to figure it out – ACT NOW or die with REGRET!
I say,
What?
You say,
Try posting some good and worthwhile information – some joy – because you are cramming up the highways with your crap. life is full of it enough.
I say,
Hey AMWAY approached me, I did not ask them to enter my life. Highways?
To Tex and thechaser, should I rest my case now?
Tex on April 15th, 2009
too big to hold them in place, I think that when different diamonds started to do their own FEC and functions. —- That’s my point from yesterday, with the color coded tickets. Many more people wouldn’t have to travel as far, and many could even go home after the sessions are over. – TOTALLY AGREE. THE WHOLE SYSTEM SHOULD BE LOOKED AT SO THAT EVERY GROUP CAN WORK TOGETHER. ITS A EGO THING AND I AM SURE THAT SOME OF THE DIAMONDS SAW AN OPPS TO MAKE MONEY, I HAVE HEARD ABOUT THE SOME OF TH BRITT GROUP IN EARLY 90S. —- If you agree, then you should be willing to do something about it, because even if this particular issue doesn’t affect you personally, it probably affects some folks in your group (or it will as you add new people), and it definitely has a huge negative impact on Amway’s reputation for not being able to make money.
I only know what I have been shown, I can understand that its a rare teaching but it seems to work well for us becuase it doesn’t put too much pressure on the family. —- So you’re saying this is not only taught at meetings, but on tapes/CDs as well? – SEE, WE ARE USING THE QI SYSTEM AND IT TEACHES US TO HAVE THE FREEDOM TO DO THEM ONE ON ONE AND NOT A COUPLE. WIFES CAN DO IT AS WELL AS MEN. THATS FROM THE CDS. AND YOU WILL HEAR THAT MOST OF THE QIS ARE DONE JUST ONE PERSON. —- Then you bring the husband and wife (IBO and prospect) to an open?
I remember Craig Deane and a few other use to do their plans on their own, Hargreave, McKennas, Clarke and a few others. Many of them talk about leaving their wife home and building the business. It may be an Oz thing, I don’t know. —- I have heard this for distant groups, but not for local plans. – PERHAPS, BUT THATS NOT WHAT WE ARE DOING AT THE MOMENT. REFER TO MY LAST REPLY —- Ditto.
Tex on April 15th, 2009
realibo,
When you feel like putting the tape-speak aside for a moment and want to learn some facts, click on my name, you’ll find them.
Ann on April 16th, 2009
so your saying IDA is a scam??
as I’ve had a couple of people asking me to join it sounds great working less hours with more money,who wouldn’t go ahead with it “BUT” it sounds to good to be true…
I really dont know if it would be worth going ahead with it??
come on Tex…. help me out.!!
joanna on April 16th, 2009
Tex,
I just re-read your post 439 again. Those were the most honest answer’s (apart from mine).
Apart from that thread, I can’t help but wonder,
How long have all those Australian Emeralds and above been doing AMWAY in Australia anyway.
What has happened to Lauren, and the “realibo”
No question marks needed, they are just my thought’s.
Yes the tape speak does permeate throught Lauren and the realibo threads.
joanna on April 16th, 2009
Ann,
Sorry to butt in,
IDA is a AMWAY Motivational Organisation. If you are a smart chick you will work it out. By the way how did they contact you?
joanna on April 16th, 2009
Lauren, realibo
Come back, please.
Tex on April 16th, 2009
Ann,
IDA is a scam. To verify for yourself, ask an Emerald or above how much they make compared to their Amway profit for the tools, and ensure they include all meetings, books, CDs, websites, voice mails, etc. Even better, ask this in a group and watch their face turn white.
joanna,
I am in the U.S., so I don’t know much about the Australian market particulars. However, I’ve seen Bert Gulick and his new “hot chick” English wife several times at opens, so I know how smooth he is in public.
joanna on April 17th, 2009
Tex,
Funny that, they are the Diamonds who have turned up on the circuit here.
Tex on April 18th, 2009
Gulick expanded his business to Australia many years ago, with his first wife, Terry. I suspect lot of the divorces that occur at high levels are because the wives figure out their rings, watches, jewelry, furs, wardrobe, etc., are coming from the tool scam and their conscious kicks in.
thechaser on April 18th, 2009
Terry passed away
Tex on April 19th, 2009
From what? Were they divorced before she died? Do you have any proof Terri died?
thechaser on April 19th, 2009
Not sure, I will find out.
Hank on April 19th, 2009
I guess there must be anti-Catholic blogs and discussions. I guess there must be anti-Coffee blogs and discussions. I’m so tempted though to say “If you don’t like Catholics or coffee, just walk away, because some people who know the whole story do like it, and will never listen to you”.
If you don’t like Amway, and that’s your right, just walk away too. If you tried it for a month and it didn’t work, well guess what… you didn’t try it, you just wished it was a get rich quick scheme, which it isn’t.
I’ve been an Amway IBO (Independent Business Owner) supported by Network TwentyOne (same as Network 21 in some countries) for 7 years. The last 2 years I’ve worked the business full-time (if 2 hours a day is full time) and am earning more than $AU85,000 per year plus all-expenses paid trips around the world. I have a fantastic network of loving friends, supportive mentors, and very happy (and wealthy) IBOs in my downline business.
Amway’s not for everyone. And some people who enter the business thinking it is going to be get rich quick scheme (which again, it isn’t) give the majority of responsible IBOs a bad wrap. The last thing I want to do is try to convince someone to join the Amway business by deception and tricks.
I cannot understand how anybody could allow themselves to be “forced” into the business. What sort of opportunity did you think you were getting into anyway? Where you really looking for something illegal or a scam?
Do I attend meetings? Yes, I attend 3 weekend meetings each year. I learn from successful people how to build and develop my Amway business. I don’t pay $5,000 like some seminars, I don’t pay $1,000. I don’t even pay $200. And that’s for 2-1/2 days of teaching and sharing.
I also subscribe to the optional CD program. Why? Because I want to learn how to build a successful Amway business. Products change, the economy is changing, and I need to keep current with trends and procedures. Also, I like to listen to successful IBOs and hear their motivating messages.
If I was looking for some part-time income, I guess I wouldn’t look beyond the largest global professional marketing company with 50 year history of success. I’d probably be happy with a company operating in more than 80 countries and territories that has paid $US27 billion in bonus and incentives since 1959. A company that employs 13,000 staff, including 500 R&D, scientists and Quality Assurance staff working in 65 labs worldwide plus 26 other units (including CSIRO) that had 700 patents wouldn’t be a bad place to start – would it?
So if you don’t like Catholics, coffee or Amway, that’s fine. Just grow up and move on. The world has a lot of closed minds, but far more Catholics, coffee-drinkers and successful Amway IBOs.
Thanks for your time,
Hank D. – Australia
Fatcat on April 20th, 2009
Greetings to the blog!
I am married to a wonderful lady who, two years ago, almost got sucked into Amway. She came home having been persuaded into spending all of our weekly shopping budget on Amway product, including some evil smelling crap in plastic bottles, which was supposed to turn us all into Superman if we mixed it with water and drank it. She tried to force our kids to drink it, but they were violently sick. I explained to her that we now had nothing to eat, and threw the whole lot down the toilet.
A year passed before she was again conned by the same person who she had accidentally met in the street. This time, true to the Amway marketing plan, she was encouraged to lie to me and to purchase products without telling us so that she could get rich. Of course, I found out. She had by this time been to several motivational meetings and had changed. I hardly knew my own wife.
I attended a meeting with her at a large impressive convention center. I was surrounded by people trying to outdo each other by swallowing handfuls of vitamin pills, drinking Nutrilite shit-in-a-jar, and plastering themselves with makeup. A constant procession of rich succesful Amway IBO’s and Diamonds etc was paraded across the stage. Each time a speaker came onstage, to the accompaniment of fanfares of trumpets, they screamed and clapped like zombies for no reason. It was quite frightening. My ears were almost bleeding from the noise, I could not take any more, so I got up and left. Several people screamed abuse at me for leaving while their heroes were still on stage.
I left and stayed outside the center until it finished. I noticed that most of the people who came on stage arrived in rather battered beaten up cars. Ours was certainly more impressive. The meeting cost quite a lot of money, and absorbed much more than any possible profit she could have made in the week. And yes, she came away with several CD’s and a few books. She insisted that they were free, which I know is a lie because I saw them on sale myself and know the price.
She never used to lie….
It is almost impossible to make any profit with Amway. In order to sell anything, she has to have some of it to demonstrate. She has to buy it herself at full cost (oh, I forget – she gets a “discount”!) So in order to sell, she has spent several hundred dollars buying kits of cosmetics and other stuff. And we even have a ridiculously expensive water filter in a box, which costs more than 5 similar filters bought locally. Any profit that she could potentially make from selling Amway product is eroded by the stock she is continually having to buy to demonstrate to customers. Then there is the cost of the gasoline for the car, and the depreciation caused by the high mileage. She has to deliver every item, of course, even if it’s a tube of toothpaste.
So, what are the products like? In truth, some of them are quite good, and some are not so good. She maintains that it is all highly priced because it is “super-concentrated” and lasts a year compared with similar product from the stores which only lasts a month.
Pretending to go along with her claims, I made her mark each product with an indelible marker, showing the date it was opened. Mostly, they do not last significantly longer than normal products. The washing powder, if used in the measures they recommend, simply do not work, our washing comes out of the machine no cleaner than it went in. The toothpaste does not last any longer. The washing-up liquid turns grease into a thick paste that blocks up the sink and covers work tops with a sticky residue. The cosmetics she uses have resulted in her face being covered with spots – previously she did not use makeup and had a clear complexion.
As far as I am concerned, my home is full of junk that we do not need and which cost us several times more than if bought from the local supermarket.
Several months have passed, she now attends motivational meetings and “training” sessions several nights in the week, and bigger conventions at weekends. She has lost all her friends, and our kids hardly see her.
She now has over three hundred CD’s and dozens of books.
She does not attempt to sell much any longer, her “upline” told her that she just has to buy stuff and use it herself, and concentrate on getting other people to do the same. Each day she sits listening to CD’s and watching videos of Amway motivational meetings and seminars. When she has finished doing that, she reads books by and about so-called “successful” Amway operatives, the very ones that I saw arriving at the meetings in five year old vehicles held together by string and sticky tape.
On an average day, I take the kids to school, I fetch them home again, I cook the meals, I put them to bed, while my wife runs around at the beck and call of the uplines.
Of course, I also know many of her friends in Amway (she has none left elsewhere) who visit and ring at all hours of the day and night – and they all have similar lifestyles. Several families have broken up and they have divorced, usually with the active Amway member believing it is wholly the fault of their spouse. In all of these cases, the uplines have been pro-active in destroying the relationships, because anyone who is not an Amway “member” is accused of being an enemy.
I hope and believe that it will not be long now before my wife, who I love dearly, comes to her senses, and perhaps then we can rebuild what is left of our family. If this does not happen, we will be yet another statistic in the Amway story.
Perhaps this might educate people as to what is likely to happen to your life if you are infected with the Amway virus.
Tex on April 20th, 2009
I found a Terri Gulick in San Marcos, Texas white pages who is 57 years old.
4 percenter on April 20th, 2009
Hay I joined amway ages ago I did not make money however I learnt that I shit loads and now I work hard for passive income.
The business has no over heads so I was not pressured in to signing people up. I just attended meetings and listened to borrowed cds. The cds an books are what changes your mind set . Reading books like rich dad poor dad by robert Kiosaki and the secret really change my idea on how to become free.
What the business did was change my outlook on how to succeed financially. Its not a scam but its not that easy to make money. To many people have poor mindsets. So dont knock it just attend the meetings and hang with the crowd , you dont have to do anything just learn, . Its worth just hanging out with the right people. If you think its really hard, try have paying for 200k of mistakes. at least with amway network21 you have time to become business owner with out the risk. the cds are $ 8 and books around 15 so i dont really get your scam tex. I suggest to anyone who reads this to play robert kiosakis boardgame “cashflow “recommened.
thechaser on April 21st, 2009
who is fatcat???
thats a marriage problem if I ever seen one.
I didn’t know the Amway Marketing Plan tells people to lie… what the hell??
Crazy stuff… anyway.
Tex I will get back to you once I find out more
Tex on April 21st, 2009
I guess there must be anti-Catholic blogs and discussions. I guess there must be anti-Coffee blogs and discussions. I’m so tempted though to say “If you don’t like Catholics or coffee, just walk away, because some people who know the whole story do like it, and will never listen to you”. —- Of course there are anti-Catholic and Coffee blogs and discussions. The point is how much money is made by the hidden tool scam, and how much from Amway? As a result, when is the typical IBO running a net profit business?
If you don’t like Amway, and that’s your right, just walk away too. If you tried it for a month and it didn’t work, well guess what… you didn’t try it, you just wished it was a get rich quick scheme, which it isn’t. —- Very few people have this approach, you’re full of crap.
I’ve been an Amway IBO (Independent Business Owner) supported by Network TwentyOne (same as Network 21 in some countries) for 7 years. The last 2 years I’ve worked the business full-time (if 2 hours a day is full time) and am earning more than $AU85,000 per year plus all-expenses paid trips around the world. I have a fantastic network of loving friends, supportive mentors, and very happy (and wealthy) IBOs in my downline business. —- Good for you. How many of your IBO’s make a net profit? What level are you at, and how much are you paid for tools?
Amway’s not for everyone. And some people who enter the business thinking it is going to be get rich quick scheme (which again, it isn’t) give the majority of responsible IBOs a bad wrap. The last thing I want to do is try to convince someone to join the Amway business by deception and tricks. —- The way it’s being run by N21 and other tool scamming companies, Amway is only for crooks and con men.
I cannot understand how anybody could allow themselves to be “forced” into the business. What sort of opportunity did you think you were getting into anyway? Where you really looking for something illegal or a scam? —- I wasn’t, but I found one.
Do I attend meetings? Yes, I attend 3 weekend meetings each year. I learn from successful people how to build and develop my Amway business. I don’t pay $5,000 like some seminars, I don’t pay $1,000. I don’t even pay $200. And that’s for 2-1/2 days of teaching and sharing. —- That’s not the point. How much marketing costs are spent to promote the meetings? Do they tell their IBO’s they make FAR more from the meetings than Amway?
I also subscribe to the optional CD program. Why? Because I want to learn how to build a successful Amway business. Products change, the economy is changing, and I need to keep current with trends and procedures. Also, I like to listen to successful IBOs and hear their motivating messages. —- How many CD’s address product changes and economic changes?
If I was looking for some part-time income, I guess I wouldn’t look beyond the largest global professional marketing company with 50 year history of success. I’d probably be happy with a company operating in more than 80 countries and territories that has paid $US27 billion in bonus and incentives since 1959. A company that employs 13,000 staff, including 500 R&D, scientists and Quality Assurance staff working in 65 labs worldwide plus 26 other units (including CSIRO) that had 700 patents wouldn’t be a bad place to start – would it? —- Nice statistics, but you need to answer the above questions.
So if you don’t like Catholics, coffee or Amway, that’s fine. Just grow up and move on. The world has a lot of closed minds, but far more Catholics, coffee-drinkers and successful Amway IBOs. —- I’m not moving anywhere, I’m doing everything I can to shut down the tool scam.
Thanks for your time, —- Thanks for your half truths…..NOT!
Hank D. – Australia —- Answer the questions, Hank D.
Tex on April 21st, 2009
Greetings to the blog! —- You have a LOT of issues, some real, some imagined.
I am married to a wonderful lady who, two years ago, almost got sucked into Amway. She came home having been persuaded into spending all of our weekly shopping budget on Amway product, including some evil smelling crap in plastic bottles, which was supposed to turn us all into Superman if we mixed it with water and drank it. She tried to force our kids to drink it, but they were violently sick. I explained to her that we now had nothing to eat, and threw the whole lot down the toilet. —- I doubt the products were THAT bad.
A year passed before she was again conned by the same person who she had accidentally met in the street. This time, true to the Amway marketing plan, she was encouraged to lie to me and to purchase products without telling us so that she could get rich. Of course, I found out. She had by this time been to several motivational meetings and had changed. I hardly knew my own wife. —- The “Amway marketing plan” does not encourage anyone to lie, but some individual IBO’s do.
I attended a meeting with her at a large impressive convention center. I was surrounded by people trying to outdo each other by swallowing handfuls of vitamin pills, drinking Nutrilite shit-in-a-jar, and plastering themselves with makeup. A constant procession of rich succesful Amway IBO’s and Diamonds etc was paraded across the stage. Each time a speaker came onstage, to the accompaniment of fanfares of trumpets, they screamed and clapped like zombies for no reason. It was quite frightening. My ears were almost bleeding from the noise, I could not take any more, so I got up and left. Several people screamed abuse at me for leaving while their heroes were still on stage. —- Again, your product descriptions are BS, and you scare easily.
I left and stayed outside the center until it finished. I noticed that most of the people who came on stage arrived in rather battered beaten up cars. Ours was certainly more impressive. The meeting cost quite a lot of money, and absorbed much more than any possible profit she could have made in the week. And yes, she came away with several CD’s and a few books. She insisted that they were free, which I know is a lie because I saw them on sale myself and know the price. —- You actually SAW the people on stage arrive? Do you KNOW they were in their own cars? This is HIGHLY questionable.
She never used to lie…. —- How do you know?
It is almost impossible to make any profit with Amway. In order to sell anything, she has to have some of it to demonstrate. She has to buy it herself at full cost (oh, I forget – she gets a “discount”!) So in order to sell, she has spent several hundred dollars buying kits of cosmetics and other stuff. And we even have a ridiculously expensive water filter in a box, which costs more than 5 similar filters bought locally. Any profit that she could potentially make from selling Amway product is eroded by the stock she is continually having to buy to demonstrate to customers. Then there is the cost of the gasoline for the car, and the depreciation caused by the high mileage. She has to deliver every item, of course, even if it’s a tube of toothpaste. —- You don’t have to buy all of the items you listed. The filters are FAR superior to the other filters.
So, what are the products like? In truth, some of them are quite good, and some are not so good. She maintains that it is all highly priced because it is “super-concentrated” and lasts a year compared with similar product from the stores which only lasts a month. —- Which ones do you like?
Pretending to go along with her claims, I made her mark each product with an indelible marker, showing the date it was opened. Mostly, they do not last significantly longer than normal products. The washing powder, if used in the measures they recommend, simply do not work, our washing comes out of the machine no cleaner than it went in. The toothpaste does not last any longer. The washing-up liquid turns grease into a thick paste that blocks up the sink and covers work tops with a sticky residue. The cosmetics she uses have resulted in her face being covered with spots – previously she did not use makeup and had a clear complexion. —- My SA8 works great. You have to use less toothpaste for it to last longer. The other cleaning products work fine for me. Do you have extremely hard water?
As far as I am concerned, my home is full of junk that we do not need and which cost us several times more than if bought from the local supermarket. —-Then be a man and don’t give her any money, you wimp.
Several months have passed, she now attends motivational meetings and “training” sessions several nights in the week, and bigger conventions at weekends. She has lost all her friends, and our kids hardly see her. —- See above.
She now has over three hundred CD’s and dozens of books. —- Duh.
She does not attempt to sell much any longer, her “upline” told her that she just has to buy stuff and use it herself, and concentrate on getting other people to do the same. Each day she sits listening to CD’s and watching videos of Amway motivational meetings and seminars. When she has finished doing that, she reads books by and about so-called “successful” Amway operatives, the very ones that I saw arriving at the meetings in five year old vehicles held together by string and sticky tape. —– Don’t let ibofb hear you say selling isn’t required, he thinks he knows differently. Are you saying the same exact people write books that are bought by the thousands and their cars suck? Hard to believe.
On an average day, I take the kids to school, I fetch them home again, I cook the meals, I put them to bed, while my wife runs around at the beck and call of the uplines. —- I suggest you go to the store and buy a backbone and some guts.
Of course, I also know many of her friends in Amway (she has none left elsewhere) who visit and ring at all hours of the day and night – and they all have similar lifestyles. Several families have broken up and they have divorced, usually with the active Amway member believing it is wholly the fault of their spouse. In all of these cases, the uplines have been pro-active in destroying the relationships, because anyone who is not an Amway “member” is accused of being an enemy. —– See ibofb comment above.
I hope and believe that it will not be long now before my wife, who I love dearly, comes to her senses, and perhaps then we can rebuild what is left of our family. If this does not happen, we will be yet another statistic in the Amway story. —- Whether you are a “statistic” is up to YOU.
Perhaps this might educate people as to what is likely to happen to your life if you are infected with the Amway virus. —- No, it shows them how a gutless and spineless husband acts.
Click on my name for the tool scam facts.
joanna on April 21st, 2009
Hank
I look forward to you answering Tex’s question, though I have some of my own:
I guess there must be anti-Catholic blogs and discussions. I guess there must be anti-Coffee blogs and discussions. I’m so tempted though to say “If you don’t like Catholics or coffee, just walk away, because some people who know the whole story do like it, and will never listen to you”.
- What?
If you don’t like Amway, and that’s your right, just walk away too. If you tried it for a month and it didn’t work, well guess what… you didn’t try it, you just wished it was a get rich quick scheme, which it isn’t.
- I didn’t want anything to do with AMWAY, I said NO, several times. AMWAY wanted ME, so that I could consume their products and so I could buy their CD’s, books and go to their meetings. So that AMWAY could make money from me.
I’ve been an Amway IBO (Independent Business Owner) supported by Network TwentyOne (same as Network 21 in some countries) for 7 years. The last 2 years I’ve worked the business full-time (if 2 hours a day is full time) and am earning more than $AU85,000 per year plus all-expenses paid trips around the world. I have a fantastic network of loving friends, supportive mentors, and very happy (and wealthy) IBOs in my downline business.
- $85,000 per year, that’s not much today. Is that your profit after expenses?.
Two hours a DAY!. Your being deceptive (a typicall AMWAY trait). Did you do it all from your home? Did you not travel to meet people? Did you not travel to meetings? Did you not spend time on the phone trying to convince people to sign up?. Do you show your propects your books?
Amway’s not for everyone. And some people who enter the business thinking it is going to be get rich quick scheme (which again, it isn’t) give the majority of responsible IBOs a bad wrap. The last thing I want to do is try to convince someone to join the Amway business by deception and tricks.
- So you just come out and say I have a great buisness called AMWAY would you like to join? You don’t use the curiosity approach?
I cannot understand how anybody could allow themselves to be “forced” into the business. What sort of opportunity did you think you were getting into anyway? Where you really looking for something illegal or a scam?
- No. I wasn’t looking at all, I was hounded by AMWAY. All under the pretence of making me rich. When the real motive is to get me to buy AMWAY products and buy CD’s, books and pay to go to meetings.
Do I attend meetings? Yes, I attend 3 weekend meetings each year. I learn from successful people how to build and develop my Amway business. I don’t pay $5,000 like some seminars, I don’t pay $1,000. I don’t even pay $200. And that’s for 2-1/2 days of teaching and sharing.
Your being deceptive again. My friend is told to go to every weekly meeting and seminar. (if they want to part of the team). But they have to pay for it, even though the meeting covers the “Plan”, just like it does every week.
I also subscribe to the optional CD program. Why? Because I want to learn how to build a successful Amway business. Products change, the economy is changing, and I need to keep current with trends and procedures. Also, I like to listen to successful IBOs and hear their motivating messages.
- look forward to you answering Tex’s question on this one.
If I was looking for some part-time income, I guess I wouldn’t look beyond the largest global professional marketing company with 50 year history of success. I’d probably be happy with a company operating in more than 80 countries and territories that has paid $US27 billion in bonus and incentives since 1959. A company that employs 13,000 staff, including 500 R&D, scientists and Quality Assurance staff working in 65 labs worldwide plus 26 other units (including CSIRO) that had 700 patents wouldn’t be a bad place to start – would it?
- That’s AMWAY not you, your the Independent Buisness Owner. Your only concern to AMWAY is that you buy their product’s and you recruit other people the buy their product’s
So if you don’t like Catholics, coffee or Amway, that’s fine. Just grow up and move on. The world has a lot of closed minds, but far more Catholics, coffee-drinkers and successful Amway IBOs.
- There are also people who tell half truth’s and deceive people. The company that you represent is known across the world for it.
thechaser on April 21st, 2009
Joanna,
you are still blaming AMWAY for the way IBOs conduct business. They are two seperate things.
AMWAY didn’t hound you, the IBO did. I can understand where you are coming from. But its not AMWAY’s fault. It could be any other network marketer who does not operate properly and continue to hound people.
Beside, every company out there WANTS YOU, they want you to continue to buy products from them. That’s called advertising. More new customers they have more profit they make. So whats the difference?
You are blurring your PERSONAL experience with the COMPANY profile. What you experienced is NOT AMWAY, its the IBOs.
joanna on April 21st, 2009
thechaser,
Yes it is my only my personal experience, and that is all that I can comment on. No maybe its is not AMWAY,s fault, but;
The company can not control their people, IBO’s are taught to to tell people that they can become rich. Yet in reality the chance’s of this happening are very unlikely.
From my personal expeirence with AMWAY, IBO’s are taught to deceive people.
Why can’t prospects be told the facts?
From my personal expeirence with AMWAY, why does there need to be another compay to sell CD,s, books and meetings? There seems to be a lot of different families involved. AMWAY is about marketing. They don’t care about how products are moved as long as they are moved. The people selling CD’s and books and running meetings and seminars don’t care as long as people pay.
Why if this is such a great buisness people need to listen to CD’s, books and go to meetings to be inspired? Is this buisness so hard that you need to be pushed every single day to stay inspired. Shouldn’t you just do it and when the money roles in that will keep you motivated?
No one so far has offered to show any facts, why?
Just show profit’s and loss, and back it up with documetation…don’t sell a hypothetical scenario.
Yes you are right. Every buisness does want you to buy their product’s. AMWAY just re-sells products to a captive market.
Joanna
thechaser on April 21st, 2009
thechaser,
Yes it is my only my personal experience, and that is all that I can comment on. No maybe its is not AMWAY,s fault, but;
The company can not control their people, IBO’s are taught to to tell people that they can become rich. Yet in reality the chance’s of this happening are very unlikely. – my pet hate is for people to tell someone to become rich. the business does provide a avenue to succeed only for those who build it. some of the people that I work with thinks rich is an extra $200 net profit a week. and that is all they are looking for. everyone in our group are taught to ask the people if they are open to look and not to ever promise them financial returns. i am pretty sure that is stated in the Rules of Conduct.
From my personal expeirence with AMWAY, IBO’s are taught to deceive people. – i agree, and i have heard stroies, cant comment because I haven’t experienced myself but I am sure it does
Why can’t prospects be told the facts? – don’t know. You can’t tell what you don’t know.
From my personal expeirence with AMWAY, why does there need to be another compay to sell CD,s, books and meetings? There seems to be a lot of different families involved. AMWAY is about marketing. They don’t care about how products are moved as long as they are moved. The people selling CD’s and books and running meetings and seminars don’t care as long as people pay. – AMWAY is more about production and distribution, those chose to use IBOs as a method of marketing. If you look back in history, Carl Rennberg was the originator of the comp plan. his intention was to give a commission to those who use the product and promoted the product because he was a scientist and couldnt tell a pig to be dirty. Somewhere over the last 70 year people tainted the original intent.
Why if this is such a great buisness people need to listen to CD’s, books and go to meetings to be inspired? Is this buisness so hard that you need to be pushed every single day to stay inspired. Shouldn’t you just do it and when the money roles in that will keep you motivated? – because to build a business you need to have good attitude. That not a AMWAY book that’s in any book store.
No one so far has offered to show any facts, why? – there are lots of different facts being presented, this is a public forum. Its not fair for you to expect people to tell you their numbers.
Just show profit’s and loss, and back it up with documetation…don’t sell a hypothetical scenario. – the plan is a fact. no hypothetical. Its calculated in a program when a certain volume is moved through in a certain structure the bonuses are paid X. I am not sure what you are looking for. We have had the VP from AMWAY telling us of some of the earning of the diamonds when they qualified. NOT TOOLs. This is from AMWAY.
Yes you are right. Every buisness does want you to buy their product’s. AMWAY just re-sells products to a captive market. – not entirely because there are people who are just customers. In fact there are people who still do party plans and those are customers. So I don’t see how that is a captive market. These girls are doing as a job. Its perfectly legit
Joanna
Tex on April 21st, 2009
joanna,
I look forward to you answering Tex’s question, though I have some of my own: —- There’s a good chance Hank won’t be back.
I guess there must be anti-Catholic blogs and discussions. I guess there must be anti-Coffee blogs and discussions. I’m so tempted though to say “If you don’t like Catholics or coffee, just walk away, because some people who know the whole story do like it, and will never listen to you”.
- What? —- Agree.
If you don’t like Amway, and that’s your right, just walk away too. If you tried it for a month and it didn’t work, well guess what… you didn’t try it, you just wished it was a get rich quick scheme, which it isn’t.
- I didn’t want anything to do with AMWAY, I said NO, several times. AMWAY wanted ME, so that I could consume their products and so I could buy their CD’s, books and go to their meetings. So that AMWAY could make money from me. —- Let’s be clear. Amway makes money when you consume their products, but they also pay YOU for that, as well as others you sponsor. When it comes to the CD’s, books, and meetings, Amway doesn’t make ANYTHING, but your upline LCK makes money, and LOTS of it. Amway is at fault for letting them do this, although they can’t do it any longer in the UK.
I’ve been an Amway IBO (Independent Business Owner) supported by Network TwentyOne (same as Network 21 in some countries) for 7 years. The last 2 years I’ve worked the business full-time (if 2 hours a day is full time) and am earning more than $AU85,000 per year plus all-expenses paid trips around the world. I have a fantastic network of loving friends, supportive mentors, and very happy (and wealthy) IBOs in my downline business.
- $85,000 per year, that’s not much today. Is that your profit after expenses?.
Two hours a DAY!. Your being deceptive (a typicall AMWAY trait). Did you do it all from your home? Did you not travel to meet people? Did you not travel to meetings? Did you not spend time on the phone trying to convince people to sign up?. Do you show your propects your books? —- He could have active downline, which could explain the 2 hours/day, and the $85,000 is probably his gross, not net.
Amway’s not for everyone. And some people who enter the business thinking it is going to be get rich quick scheme (which again, it isn’t) give the majority of responsible IBOs a bad wrap. The last thing I want to do is try to convince someone to join the Amway business by deception and tricks.
- So you just come out and say I have a great buisness called AMWAY would you like to join? You don’t use the curiosity approach? —- The bad reputation the tool scam has generated makes the curiosity approach necessary.
I cannot understand how anybody could allow themselves to be “forced” into the business. What sort of opportunity did you think you were getting into anyway? Where you really looking for something illegal or a scam?
- No. I wasn’t looking at all, I was hounded by AMWAY. All under the pretence of making me rich. When the real motive is to get me to buy AMWAY products and buy CD’s, books and pay to go to meetings. —- You probably went through a period where the area you live became busy, has it subsided?
Do I attend meetings? Yes, I attend 3 weekend meetings each year. I learn from successful people how to build and develop my Amway business. I don’t pay $5,000 like some seminars, I don’t pay $1,000. I don’t even pay $200. And that’s for 2-1/2 days of teaching and sharing.
Your being deceptive again. My friend is told to go to every weekly meeting and seminar. (if they want to part of the team). But they have to pay for it, even though the meeting covers the “Plan”, just like it does every week. —- He’s talking about major weekend functions, you’re talking about weekly evening Open meetings. The same plan SHOULD be shown at these meetings, the whole purpose is to show prospects and help new IBO’s with learning how to show the plan (plus make LOTS of tool scam money)
.
I also subscribe to the optional CD program. Why? Because I want to learn how to build a successful Amway business. Products change, the economy is changing, and I need to keep current with trends and procedures. Also, I like to listen to successful IBOs and hear their motivating messages.
- look forward to you answering Tex’s question on this one. —- Don’t hold your breath.
If I was looking for some part-time income, I guess I wouldn’t look beyond the largest global professional marketing company with 50 year history of success. I’d probably be happy with a company operating in more than 80 countries and territories that has paid $US27 billion in bonus and incentives since 1959. A company that employs 13,000 staff, including 500 R&D, scientists and Quality Assurance staff working in 65 labs worldwide plus 26 other units (including CSIRO) that had 700 patents wouldn’t be a bad place to start – would it?
- That’s AMWAY not you, your the Independent Buisness Owner. Your only concern to AMWAY is that you buy their product’s and you recruit other people the buy their product’s —- Bingo.
So if you don’t like Catholics, coffee or Amway, that’s fine. Just grow up and move on. The world has a lot of closed minds, but far more Catholics, coffee-drinkers and successful Amway IBOs.
- There are also people who tell half truth’s and deceive people. The company that you represent is known across the world for it. —- Bingo again.
Tex on April 21st, 2009
you are still blaming AMWAY for the way IBOs conduct business. They are two seperate things. —- Not according to the UK judicial system. Just ask BWW and N21. I’m not talking about the “hounding”, I’m talking about the tool scam.
AMWAY didn’t hound you, the IBO did. I can understand where you are coming from. But its not AMWAY’s fault. It could be any other network marketer who does not operate properly and continue to hound people. —- True.
Beside, every company out there WANTS YOU, they want you to continue to buy products from them. That’s called advertising. More new customers they have more profit they make. So whats the difference? —- The difference is they don’t stick their face into her face, and she can ignore signs/advertisements and turn off the television/turn the channel if she wants. She has much more control than when a person approaches her.
You are blurring your PERSONAL experience with the COMPANY profile. What you experienced is NOT AMWAY, its the IBOs. —- Agree.
Tex on April 21st, 2009
Yes it is my only my personal experience, and that is all that I can comment on. No maybe its is not AMWAY,s fault, but; —- Agree.
The company can not control their people, IBO’s are taught to to tell people that they can become rich. Yet in reality the chance’s of this happening are very unlikely. —- According to the UK judicial system, they MUST control their people when it comes to the tool scam, or leave the country. The “chance” has little to do with it, it’s more related to the super-human effort that must be put in because of the tool scam.
From my personal expeirence with AMWAY, IBO’s are taught to deceive people. —- Most of the “deceiving” is done by people who don’t realize they were given bad information, so be sure to blame the LCK’s for this.
Why can’t prospects be told the facts? —- That’s why they are LCK’s (Lying Cowardly “Kingpins”), because the facts would uncover their tool scam.
From my personal expeirence with AMWAY, why does there need to be another compay to sell CD,s, books and meetings? There seems to be a lot of different families involved. AMWAY is about marketing. They don’t care about how products are moved as long as they are moved. The people selling CD’s and books and running meetings and seminars don’t care as long as people pay. —- EXACTLY. They are MUCH more concerned you buy the educational materials, because they make MUCH more money from these.
Why if this is such a great buisness people need to listen to CD’s, books and go to meetings to be inspired? Is this buisness so hard that you need to be pushed every single day to stay inspired. Shouldn’t you just do it and when the money roles in that will keep you motivated? —- Humans don’t work that way. You are throwing out the baby (education) with the bathwater (tool scam).
No one so far has offered to show any facts, why? —- There are facts all over my site.
Just show profit’s and loss, and back it up with documetation…don’t sell a hypothetical scenario. —- Reality wouldn’t sell.
Yes you are right. Every buisness does want you to buy their product’s. AMWAY just re-sells products to a captive market. —- This is largely true, but it is also changing, as Amway is reducing prices, and making FREE retail training available.
Tex on April 22nd, 2009
I should add to the above the training is “FREE”, as we know the cost of training has to come from somewhere, an unknown combination of less profit for Amway and/or higher product costs.
SistaB on April 24th, 2009
Hi all
Just found this page cuz yesterday I was invited to one such seminar ….. I am in South Africa johannesburg … interestingly, my friend who has a failed business ventures to his name and debts galore is the one trying to recruit me. I guess I am sceptical because I know how desperate he is of making money bearing in mind his financial dramas. Until such time I see him a millionaire – I shall wait!!!!
The funny thing is that even though he says he has been in it for a while , I still do not see any results and honestly now WHY WOULD SOMEONE CALL YOU TO MAKE MONEY … that on its own is suspicious … tick tock time will tell.
Tex on April 25th, 2009
SistaB,
You probably made a good decision, click on my name for the tool scam facts. You would have been shown a way to make money via the Amway business, but most money is being made by the tool scam, and I’m afraid your friend is probably going to lose money and eventually drop out. Either way, money is made by adding people, just like any other business. If you’re a real friend, make sure they visit my site as well, your friend will thank you, either now or later.
joanna on April 26th, 2009
SistaB, Tex
From my own personal experience,no one makes money. Everyone is told that they can, but they must submit to buying everything from AMWAY and then your are told “if your serious you should subscribe to the book’s and CD’s”. So it’s in AMWAY’s best interest that you buy everything possible through them. The company can make a profit from you even though you are getting everything at “wholesale”. Even though you are told that all they want is for you to make money.
It’s a buisness that want’s to sell to a captive market. Even when you could get it cheaper from another source.
Tex I have looked at your web site, It seems accurate, my question is why would you defend this buisness? Even if you make it to a high level you will need to denounce the company that you represent And your right Hank or even Lauren won’t come back, maybe his 85,000 was not completly true (There’s another AMWAY trait)
The silence is DEAFING.
Joanna
Tex on April 27th, 2009
joanna,
Those at about Platinum and above make a net profit. For those below Platinum, the net loss is caused by both the price and practices of the LCKs. So, if you can somehow make it through the “financial hazing”, you’ll be making money, but only at the expense, both figuratively and literally, of your downline.
Remember, there’s Amway and there’s the separate LCKs and their tool scam. The UK legal system rightly told Amway they can no longer blame the LCKs for the tool scam, and the UK no longer has a tool scam. However, Amway reduced products prices and are still in business in the UK. I don’t see an issue with Amway making a profit while selling items at wholesale, they are a business and deserve to make money.
There’s a huge difference between being told they want you to make money and their actions, and this applies to both the LCKs and Amway.
There are many products in the U.S. that are competitively priced (and many that are not), and that was before the recent price reductions. I’ll be doing another price comparison soon.
Thank you for visiting my site, feel free to promote it to others. It seems accurate because it is, I make no claim that isn’t based on verifiable facts, many of which have been confirmed by multiple sources. I look forward to my visit to Ada after making Platinum, I will speak the truth, just as I did in Prague a year ago.
Your best question is why I defend this business. That is part of my overall strategy, and therefore can’t be broadcast for all to see. That would be like showing our WWII war plans to Hitler.
hmmmm on May 2nd, 2009
Hay Joanna,
There is money to be made but you got to put in the hours and the time. Its not easy but you need to follow the system, simplify your life. Its hard and not easy and it took alot of investing and shit loads of time. Ok apart from the tools you buy. There are no over heads, no rent, no staff, no customers and no sellin individual products (only if you want to ) you just have to master selling. If you think theres more money to be made from a traditional job then just stick to that. Because in a job you make money but you limited to that amount eg 50k for that year. Where as at amway you are advised to keep you fulltime job but start a part time business. The only reason people fail is they give up but what have they really risked. My house is still standing, Im not relient on investing my money on shares and property.
Joanna I will be honest with you I had doubts and wanted to give up. But I never did. Look the thing is this business aint sexy but it has a great system.
Joanna if you think that theres no money to be made then i cant shift your mindset till you investigate the other side why dont you speak to people who are sucessful. Because I’m on the other side, I am free and I dont have to worry about this recession.
Tex you sound like a crusader and I understand where you are comin from. Network 21 makes shit loads of money from IBO’s. But the functions cds and books are what i needed to help me become an emerald. without the cds i would have given up this along time ago. keep on fighting may you can get these lcks to drop there prices its unbelieveable
hmmmm on May 2nd, 2009
I needed to cds to educate myself to think like a business owner not an employee I recommend you read robert kiosaki’s book cash flow quadrant. Because employee want security and certinty. but thats the conditioning until you become deconditioned then people will see that amways just unworkable
Tex on May 4th, 2009
hmmmm,
It would help my “crusade” to have some others join me. Care to join the effort? I’m not against the tools, just the tool SCAM (pricing and practices).
Doreen on May 5th, 2009
Amway is a scam. They charge too much for their products and the products are not anything that you canot get cheaper and Sam’s club or Walmart.
Plus many IBO’s are suckers who think you need to buy cd’s and attend endless meetings to learn how to buy your own products and trick others into joining. Basically the Amway business is a joke so basically IBOs are comedians.
joanna on May 5th, 2009
hmmmm
There is money to be made but you got to put in the hours and the time.
- that’s not what I was told…I was told it only takes a couple of hours a week.
Its not easy but you need to follow the system, simplify your life. Its hard and not easy and it took alot of investing and shit loads of time.
- that’s not what I was told…I was told that in two to five years I could retire.
- You need to simplify your life? How would you know.
Ok apart from the tools you buy. There are no over heads, no rent, no staff, no customers and no sellin individual products (only if you want to ) you just have to master selling.
- so it is about selling…I was told that it wasn’t. So you have to buy the tools. Who makes money from selling the “tools”?. If there is no selling, it makes it an illegal buisness. You are saying that you are an Emerald?
If you think theres more money to be made from a traditional job then just stick to that. Because in a job you make money but you limited to that amount eg 50k for that year.
- Yes you could be limited to a wage of 50K but a smart person would take part of that 50k or even 20k and invest it in something real…not a dream.
Where as at amway you are advised to keep you fulltime job but start a part time business. The only reason people fail is they give up but what have they really risked.
- Why do they give up…don’t they get the rewards and money that is promised.
Joanna I will be honest with you I had doubts and wanted to give up. But I never did. Look the thing is this business aint sexy but it has a great system.
- What system is that…you make your money from CD’S and meetings. Yes your right it’s not sexy seeing people deceive other’s.
Joanna if you think that theres no money to be made then i cant shift your mindset till you investigate the other side why dont you speak to people who are sucessful. Because I’m on the other side, I am free and I dont have to worry about this recession.
- either do I…I am successfull. What are you free of? I speak to successfull people they come from many different careers but none are from AMWAY.
Tex you sound like a crusader and I understand where you are comin from. Network 21 makes shit loads of money from IBO’s.
But the functions cds and books are what i needed to help me become an emerald.
- yes you do…with out the functions and CD’s you would not make a profit.
without the cds i would have given up this along time ago. keep on fighting may you can get these lcks to drop there prices its unbelieveable.
I needed to cds to educate myself to think like a business owner not an employee I recommend you read robert kiosaki’s book cash flow quadrant. Because employee want security and certinty. but thats the conditioning until you become deconditioned then people will see that amways just unworkable
- Why do AMWAY people keep referring you people to Robert Kiosaki, IBO’s are not part of the right hand side of the “Cash Flow Quadrant”. They are on the left hand side being exploited by those who invest in the CD’s and Functions without ever telling those that they recruit that they are making money from them.
- Your last sentence really say’s something…people have to be conditioned to buy CD’s, books and go to functions, so that other can make money from them. While AMWAY makes money from people who are conditioned to buy every thing from them…even when they don’t need it. Do you own a water purifier?
joanna on May 6th, 2009
Doreen.
Doreen you are so right, why do you need to go to meetings and listen to CD’s, because as Hmmm says “the is no sellin”. As prospects are told “just buy the products, show people how to buy from themselves and the money roles in.
Yeah.
Tex on May 7th, 2009
Doreen/joanna,
Amway, by itself, isn’t a scam. The manner in which the LCK’s conduct their business is the scam. I live in the U.S., and even before the recent price reductions, there were many products that were competitively priced, there’s even more now. There are also some products that are too high priced, even now. Listening to CD’s and going to meetings is not the problem, it’s the MONEY that is made from the CD’s and meetings. Training is required in any business, the difference with the LCK’s is the training IS the primary business. The UK has fixed their tool scam, it’s past time for our countries to do the same. There are also some countries where selling to non-IBO’s is not required.
Erik Sydney on May 8th, 2009
Hi Luke,
Amwyay is not a scam at all. 50 years and still going with sales over 7.5Bil USD.
What was concerning was the person showing you the business did not actually go into how the business worked and just tried to sell you a dream.
That seems to be how IDA do their thing, big on the dream.
Either way, I am in a successful Amway business and so are the people I work with, it can work and does for many families and is the largest creators of millionaires globally as a corporation.
You can nay say it all you want, but people such as Robert Kiyosaki and Donald Trump endorse educational and wealth building businesses like Amway/Network 21.
Tex on May 9th, 2009
Hi Luke,
Bernie Madoff isn’t a scam at all. Former NASDAQ stock market chairman, respected investor, $67 BILLION Ponzi scheme hidden for a couple of decades!
What was concerning is the person showing you the business did not actually go into how the tool scam business worked and just tried to sell you on the Amway business. However, the dream is largely financed by the tool scam, not Amway.
That is how most of the groups do their thing, big on the dream, little on the tool scam.
Either way, you need to tell us how much you pay for your N21 tools and ask your N21 upline how much they make on the tools, because you also need to give us a reference for Amway being the largest creator of millionaires globally as a corporation.
You can say it all you want, but people such as Robert Kiyosake and Donald Trump don’t have a clue, or if they do, they are LCKs too.
Joanna on May 9th, 2009
Mmmm, Erik Sydney
Mmmm – Why can’t you answer my questions?
Erik Sydney – please show where Robert Kiyosaki and Donald Trump endorse AMWAY and Network 21. Let me know where I can see their quotes. Is there a web site or book where they actually say this. I have no reason to doubt you, but if you back up your claims with documented facts, I will believe it. Also could you show me where you got the stats about “AMWAY being the largest creator of millionaires”. My country has many wealthy people but I have never heard of anyone saying they make their millions from AMWAY or it being reported in the main stream media. Don’t use Profiles of Success.
Why do AMWAY people keep refering to how much money AMWAY makes? You are a IBO aren’t you, a “Independent Buisness Owner”. You are INDEPENDANT, that’s AMWAY’s turnover not yours. AMWAY makes their money from you because you buy their products. And the people flogging the CD’s and meetings make their money from you because you are told you can’t succeed if you don’t subscribe to the “training”.
Why can’t anyone except Tex attempt to answer my questions. Erik Sydney, if you can answer my questions and back up you answers with facts that’s fine. But don’t make claims that you heard on a tape or at a meeting. Though I feel that like everyone else who has tried to defend AMWAY here you won’t be able to.
Joanna
Tex on May 9th, 2009
Joanna,
Kiyosaki often speaks at Amway functions, and has more than one CD/book, etc., promoting MLM in general and Amway in particular.
The reason others don’t answer your questions is because the only information they have is being parroted from what they heard someone say on stage, on a CD, etc., and when challenged with the facts, they shrivel up and slink away.
Click on my name for the tool scam facts.
thechaser on May 10th, 2009
Joanna
people keeps referring to how Amway make is because that is the fact that the company does make that turn over. You however is the one that is still bagging AMWAY the company and not the IBOs that you associated with.
How many millionairs do you know in your industry? Are you able to provide some stats on that so we could compare??
Some people are answering your questions but you still choose to ignore the facts that there are people who succeed in the business. You have not met them probably because you have never wanted to as you have had a neg impression from the beginning.
Both Trump and Kiyosaki have refer to their support of Networking in various books. ‘why we want you to be rich’ ‘cashflow quadrant’, rich dad poor dad, and many other books that expand on Networking.
There are sections in book stores that is dedicated on the subject of networking as well as Harvard having a subject on Networking.
These are facts, you unfortunately are still blurring the lines between the concept of NETWORKING, IBOs and AMWAY.
Tex on May 11th, 2009
thechaser,
Amway is responsible for allowing the LCKs to keep their tool scams intact.
If Joanna had stats, what are the source of yours? YOU made the original claim.
What is the primary source of their “success?” Amway or the tool scam?
The line is blurred because Amway came out against the tool scam, and now endorses it, unless the government (UK) threatens to kick them out.
thechaser on May 11th, 2009
tex,
i didn’t make the claim about the millionaire… it was someone else…
my claim was that there are many people succeed in THIS industry.
Tex on May 12th, 2009
My apologies, but then you should have challenged THEM to produce the numbers first, not Joanna.
Tex on May 12th, 2009
Also, it is important to know HOW and WHY some people “succeed” in this industry, particularly how their “success” relates to the failure of others.
Not A Loser on May 12th, 2009
There is no documentation from Amway that anyone got wealthy from this business, except perhaps for the owners of Amway. The claim that Amway has created the most millionaires is a myth perpetuated by the diamonds to attract prospects into the business.
Joanna is correct. Amway’s billions have no relationship to the success of an INDEPENDENT business owner. In fact, for every diamond you see parading on stage, there are thousands of IBO’s who tried and did not achieve. Not because of lack of desire or effort, but because of an inefficient and poorly created system. Add that to Amway’s poor reputation and it’s easy to see why so many IBO’s cannot achieve much in this business.
Tex on May 13th, 2009
Not A Loser,
Well stated. I would add I have seen several multi-million dollar checks being given on stage at major functions to Dexter Yager, so there is SOME documentation that ONE person got wealthy from this business. However, those checks were a “drop in the bucket” to Dexter’s tool scam profits, which resulted in the conditions you accurately described. I assume other checks were given on stage to other LCKs as well.
Joanna on May 19th, 2009
thechaser, Not A Loser,
thechaser
I am not bagging AMWAY, I am just asking questions that no one can answer to my satisfaction. I believe you when you say that the company makes that turnover, but as I have tried to say, thats AMWAY’s turnover not the IBO is it? it’s not yours, why do you attempt to take credit for it? They make that turnover because they have a market that is conditioned to only buy from them.
No I don’t know any millionaires in my industry, (nursing). Is the measure of someone’s success is to be a millionaire?
Where does Donald Trump or Kiosayki mention AMWAY by name? show me.
Their definition of “networking” is not even close to what AMWAY is saying. AMWAY has hijacked the term in an attempt to give themselves credibility.
Not A Loser,
Excatly!
Joanna
Tex on May 19th, 2009
Joanna,
You hurt my feelings. I’ve seen Kiyosaki in person at major Amway functions, he also promotes network marketing in general. Not so much for the network marketing itself, but as training to be an entrepeneur.
thechaser on May 19th, 2009
Joanna
correct me if I am wrong, but there are many countries, Australia included where there are CUSTOMERS to the IBOs, so the comment about a capture market is not entirely correct. eg. 2billion turn over in China is a LOT of retail type work because thats the kind of model it is.
As for success, I don’t believe money is a measure of success. There are many ways of reaching success in the business. This all comes back to what each individual wants out of the business.
However MANY critics use the examples of how many diamonds there are as a measure of success.
Where that comment came from was more because someone made a claim that the industry has created many millionairs.. which is true. There are many people that made a lot of money over the years.
The point is that these are business owners, and if they did not make money in this industry and there are many of them would have made it big else where.
And as robert and donald would have pointed out its all in their thinking and not in what they know…
I don’t think you have actually read Rich Dad, Poor Dad or the cashflow quadrant or why we want you to be rich have you Joanna… I would suggest that you read it because through out many of those books they both talk and endorse network marketing.
and the comment that you made what AMWAY hijacking the term is you BAGGING AMWAY. and it really shows that you really don’t quite understand network marketing nor the plan.
Tex on May 20th, 2009
I believe Australia is one of the countries where retailing isn’t required.
Money is DEFINITELY a measure of success. Not the ONLY measure, but A measure. When it comes to a business, most people want MONEY out of it, at least until they are told by the upline there are other things they should be interested in, when they find out they aren’t making money.
The millionaire comment came from a supporter, not a critic. The numbers that have lost money because of the tool scam dwarfs the few that made money, whether you are talking about a little or a lot of money. Even Rich DeVos admits Amway made huge mistakes: http://texsquixtarblog.blogspot.com/2009/05/finally-rich-spills-beans.html
The point is the tool scam. I would love to get a direct answer from Donald and Robert regarding the tool scam. Donald would probably turn to the LCKs and say, “You’re FIRED!!!”
Yes, the books do endorse network marketing, but NOT the tool scam.
You don’t understand network marketing nor the plan, because you choose to ignore the biggest influence on the business model, the tool scam.
thechaser on May 21st, 2009
Tex
I agree with most things you say but I disagree that the Tool Scam drives the Networking model; in stating that Joanna didn’t understand the networking model was referring to the fact that she mentioned the AMWAY networking model is not the same as the other networking models that Kiyosaki and various other authors talks about.
The business CAN be built without the tools, however that individual will have to have the skill set of the entrepreneur. Most people who start the business don’t, that is why people like Kiyosaki talks about being part of a networking company to learn some of the skill sets of being an entrepreneur.. and he DOES encourage listening to audios, cds, books to train our mind. (that was not tape talk), its was a seminar that he did at a SUCCESS symposium. not related to the business.
Tex on May 21st, 2009
How can you say the tool scam does not drive the networking model? There are several TIMES more profit made by the LCKs for tools vs. Amway, and most IBOs below Platinum operate at a net loss.
You go on to say most people don’t have the skill set without tools, yet you give the LCKs a pass. AMAZING!!!
Joanna on May 21st, 2009
thechaser, Tex
It seems that the only thing anyone can agree on is that the “tool scam” exists. It’s there and people are being deceived. Not one person that I had the unfortunate experience to meet who were involved in this scheme would admit that there are people making a lot of money from the CD’s, books and meetings. Why does everyone except Tex avoid mentioning the tools scam?
Where does Trump or Kiyosaki mention AMWAY by name as a good example of networking?
thechaser,
No I haven’t read those specific books, and I probably won’t. Though I do know that networking is not recruiting people by deception. Not telling someone up front what company you represent, pretending to be interested in them, saying that you are looking for some good people to make a lot of money when the chances of even making a small profit was not likely, or not telling them that there is a side buisness happening where other people will make money from you is Deception. Why is this necessary? Then you are told to make a list of your family and friends so that you can deceive them too. You may think that I am bagging AMWAY, but I am only relating to the things that happended to me. It was their representatives that approached me and they lied to me and from what I can see it’s the way their buisness is done. As I have said before this is all my own experience. It was AMWAY’s representatives who hounded me after I said no several times and from just this blog it seems a fairly standard MO. Presenting a plan that infers that it is relative simple to make money through this scheme is deception.
thechaser on May 21st, 2009
Joanna, Tex
Both of you have made up your mind about many things and are not opend to the fact that there are other people who DOES make a lot of money out of the networking model.
Its just like any other biz where you have to spend time and effort into it. If you just buy tools and do not talk to anyone and blame the tool scam that is just dumb business. it like saying I buy a lawn mowing franchise and not tell about it and blame the business because i am not making anything.
Tex, you missed my point about the tools. As you are well aware there are hundreds of different networking companies out there. They all have support materials and they are not ALL scams. Every business has some kind of training structure.
Joanna, if you think you going to work someone is not making money out of you then you are as blind as the next person. No one will employ anyone if that person is not producing an income for the person int he business. why do you think there are people losing their jobs? its because they are no longer productive and the business owner longer makes any money by keeping these people on.
Did you not also read what TEX said about kiyosaki, he goes to AMWAY functions. Donald enorsed several network companies, ACN is one. They are not going to put it in a book and say AMWAY is great… thinking that an author will write that in book that is written for the general public is just simply crazy.
How the IBO have represented is the fault of the IBOs, they are doing themselve injustice as well as the company. Once again its NOT AMWAY reps… each IBO sign a contract with AMWAY to operate within the guidelines. some don’t some do. Amway don’t employ any of us. what you experienced is what you exprienced but please don’t preach is as if that is the only thing that happens.
The plan represents exactly what you will get paid when you achieve those volumn. Those figures are not lies, its whether or not each individual decides to build it.
Everytime you sell something, its a small profits. Everytime that I use a product its creates a small profit because I am going to buy some of these items anyway. My business may be small but its not making a net loss because I have CUSTOMERs… now that is something revolutionary I know but yeah, there are people who will use products.
I have play sport at a professional level and yet every kid that starts my sport has a dream of turning pro. No one seems to talk about the money that is spent on a kid of attempting to turn pro yet not succeeding. Is that a scam?? I don’t think so. So if a coach tells the parent that their child has a chance of turning pro and should spend X amount of dollars in coaching with him does that make him a lier?
There is no certainty in success, some will excell and some wont. its a fact of life.
thechaser on May 21st, 2009
interesting reading about a company this suppose to be a scam?
http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2009/05/amways_second_generation_of_ch.html
Tex on May 21st, 2009
thechaser,
I NEVER stated all network marketing companies are scams, I said the way most Amway businesses are run are scams because of the tool scams. I don’t comment very much on non-Amway companies. Your sports analogy isn’t even close to the Amway tool scam.
Tex on May 21st, 2009
The news story didn’t post my tool scam comment. Did you know Rich recently stated his biggest regret was not getting rid of the tool scammers?
thechaser on May 21st, 2009
tex,
I defend the business as what it is, I don’t support the tool scam hence I give away plenty of CDs and Mp3. Like I have said many time, its how I operate and I know it may not be a majority but i do know of many that would do the same as well as coming from the recent cds.
Many on this blog attach the AMWAY business model as well as all of the other Networking companies because they associate with all networking companies as a pyramid scheme.
I didn’t say that you said all networking companies are scams, the point I was making is that all business have a training structure comes in forms of CDs and tapes and brochures. I my other business venture, I have had to purchase tape and cds just as I have now. And I know someone will be making some money out of those materials, no one does something for nothing.
What I have been saying is to distinguish between AMWAY as a company and the various diamonds that are using the tools as a way of making money. I was part of the LOS that happened and so was Joanna’s associates. There are changes been made to pricing as well as compensation.
The amway business is still a good business, it does need work to clean up the mess that some of the guys left from the 80s and 90s. I don’t see it as what it was then thats why I am still building it, and people are still buying products as well as becoming business owners. Some was in the biz 20 years ago and can now see the difference so they are giving is a go.
What ticks me off is someone like Joanna and many others who was in the biz for 5 seconds and have never used the product and have unfortunately associated with some groups that are not growing and thinks that is what Amway is all about which is not true.
As for the comment by Rich, that great however it does not mean they will continue to let it go. The company is doing what they can to clean the image up as well as the business model. It took many years for the tool problem to happen and as you have read from Doug Weads thread, the tools were there for a purpose. Unfortunately some people saw it as a gold mine and miss used it.
Tex on May 21st, 2009
Are you breaking any copyright laws when you give away your tools?
I reject those who lump all networking companies together as illegal pyramids. They are wrong and deflect attention away from the real problem, the tool scam.
I don’t mind money being made, just be honest about how much money is being made via the tools. Don’t be an LCK (Lying Cowardly “Kingpin”) about it.
What pricing changes are you talking about? Amway products or tools?
I don’t see changes from the 80′s and 90′s, the tool scam is “alive and well”, at least in the U.S.
Joanna is operating closer to the truth for a very high percentage of IBOs than most IBOs are even aware of, so I don’t understand why you have a problem with the truth.
Amway has shown a “willingness” to fix the tool scam ONLY when the government cracks down on them, not on their own initiative. Actually, with the growing number of countries that have cracked down, and the internet that has spread this knowledge far and wide, Amway has lost the initiative.
Mr big on June 6th, 2009
The fact is, anyone who has seen the amway “plan” now can no longer for the rest of their lives ever complain to anyone that they don’t have enough money or time in there lives.
It is a business. It works if you work it. It doesn’t if you don’t. The plan talks about 2 – 5 years to make it in the business. Not 2 – 5 weeks! I have never met ANYONE who has quit the amway business and then gone on to become successful in something else.
If you think it is a SCAM, then I dare you to put it in writing and send it to the amway legal department. They’ll love to hear from you.
Anway, thats enough from me, I’m sure you’re all wise enough to do your REAL homework on the business.
Cheers.
Tex on June 8th, 2009
Mr. big —- I noticed the “big” is in small letters, any reason for this?
The fact is, anyone who has seen the amway “plan” now can no longer for the rest of their lives ever complain to anyone that they don’t have enough money or time in there lives. —- Sure they can, they either unknowingly turned down the tool scam or got taken advantage of it.
It is a business. —- WRONG. It’s 2 businesses, the Amway business and the tool scam business.
It works if you work it. —- Only for very few.
It doesn’t if you don’t. —- For most, it works better if you DON’T work it, because you won’t be paying into the tool scam.
The plan talks about 2 – 5 years to make it in the business. —- Not for most people, only for a very few.
Not 2 – 5 weeks! —- Who said that?
I have never met ANYONE who has quit the amway business and then gone on to become successful in something else. —- Then you haven’t met Brig Hart or Orrin Woodward.
If you think it is a SCAM, then I dare you to put it in writing and send it to the amway legal department. —- I’ve been doing that for 4 years.
They’ll love to hear from you. —- No they don’t, they ignore you.
Anway, thats enough from me, I’m sure you’re all wise enough to do your REAL homework on the business. —- Good riddance, the REAL facts are here: Just google “Tex Amway 9 steps of truth”
Cheers. —- Double cheers.
Mr big on June 10th, 2009
Tex are you broke?
I’m willing to bet you are.
Of coarse it only works for a few. Only a few people treat it like a REAL BUSINESS.
Sounds like you are an employee, and have never been in business for yourself before.
Instead, you write your little blogs which make you feel good inside.
Don’t write back saying you’ve struck it rich in something else. Everyone will know it’s a fat lie.
How do I know this?
People who are successful DON’T make excuses! they fail, then fail again and maybe even again. But they don’t make excuses. They get up and make it work nomatter what.
You can be rich or you can have excuses TEX, you can’t have both.
By the way, This tool scam you speak of. It’s in the past. It’s finnished. Get over it. I can’t speak for net 21 but the tools in IDA are essential to build a business of duplication. you can’t b uild a long lasting network without these tools.
Also Mr big is only a nickname. It doesn’t need a capital.
And lastly, If i sounded rude in my comments I appologise.
I am only stating MY personal opinion.
Tex on June 11th, 2009
Tex are you broke? —- No. But how does that change the tool scam facts.
I’m willing to bet you are. —- You lost the bet.
Of coarse it only works for a few. Only a few people treat it like a REAL BUSINESS. —- That’s typical LCK-speak for trying to make it the IBOs fault for not succeeding, rather the the REAL reason, the tool scam. I’ll be the first to admit many IBOs are lazy, but that doesn’t give the LCKs the green light to rip off everyone.
Sounds like you are an employee, and have never been in business for yourself before. —- Wrong again.
Instead, you write your little blogs which make you feel good inside. —- Wrong again. I write “little blogs” to shut down the tool scam in the U.S., and result in a similar condition that exists in the UK. When that happens, I will feel VERY GOOD inside.
Don’t write back saying you’ve struck it rich in something else. Everyone will know it’s a fat lie. —- Don’t write back with your BS. Everyone will know it’s a fat lie.
How do I know this? —- You don’t have a clue.
People who are successful DON’T make excuses! they fail, then fail again and maybe even again. But they don’t make excuses. They get up and make it work nomatter what. —- So, if you got robbed after leaving the bank with some cash, you would make the statement it was YOUR fault you got robbed? Or would you use the “excuse” there could have been better security, or the “excuse” that law enforcement should go after the robber? I did get back up and am making it work. I have several thousand CDs/tapes and hundreds of books, and use them in a library format rather than a tool scam. You don’t have a clue.
You can be rich or you can have excuses TEX, you can’t have both. —- See above.
By the way, This tool scam you speak of. It’s in the past. It’s finnished. Get over it. I can’t speak for net 21 but the tools in IDA are essential to build a business of duplication. you can’t b uild a long lasting network without these tools. —- Who said anything about getting rid of tools? I said the tool SCAM. Get a clue. How much does YOUR upline make from the tools?
Also Mr big is only a nickname. It doesn’t need a capital. —- Neither do you.
And lastly, If i sounded rude in my comments I appologise. —-I don’t. Too many people have been ripped off for too long for too much money to be “nice” about this issue.
I am only stating MY personal opinion. —- I am only stating FACTS.
Mr big on June 12th, 2009
Haha, Spoken Like a true Wanker. Good luck shutting down the tool SCAM. Your going to be trying for a LONG TIME because you’ll never get close.
If your stating FACTS, then the government would shut them down right away. You think the government doesn’t know how these business opperate? People like you should be commited.
Tex on June 13th, 2009
Haha, Spoken Like a true Wanker. —- Haha, time will tell who the wanker is.
Good luck shutting down the tool SCAM. —- Thanks. It is mostly constant effort, but a little luck doesn’t hurt either.
Your going to be trying for a LONG TIME because you’ll never get close. —- The recent events in the UK would indicate YOU are the wanker.
If your stating FACTS, then the government would shut them down right away. —- Sure, just like the government took immediate and effective action with Bernie Madoff? We’re not dealing with the sharpest knives in the drawer.
You think the government doesn’t know how these business opperate? —- No, I don’t.
People like you should be commited. —- I am, I’m committed to shutting down the tool scam.
Mr big on June 13th, 2009
Fair enough then.
I’m in Aus so don’t really care what goes on in the UK.
So can I ask you how you are going to do this?
Hasn’t plenty of people tried to do what your doing already?
Tex on June 13th, 2009
I’m in the U.S., and care what goes on in the UK, Australia, the U.S., India, China, Russia, etc. Our laws and sense of right and wrong aren’t that different.
I am doing a variety of things, including posting on blogs, staying in contact with key lawsuits, and raising awareness with law enforcement, media, etc. I am also in the middle of a tift with Amway, which I am using to apply additional pressure.
Most others have taken the position of shutting down both Amway and the LCKs. I have chosen to drive a wedge between them, as the Amway business without the tool scam is legitimate and I can’t expect to take down a multi-billion dollar/year company. My approach is EXACTLY what happened in the UK, as the UK government basically told Amway they are responsible for the LCK behavior, so Amway shut them down, and even kicked out a couple of Diamonds when their web site could be entered through the back door to buy tools. BWW ran away from the UK with their tail between their legs and N21 was thoroughly embarassed after stating publicly, via a letter from none other than Jim Dornan, the UK situation was an Amway problem and not a tool scam problem.
Joanna on June 24th, 2009
Mr big
Can you tell me in the last ten years, any one who became successful in AMWAY within 2 years of joining. And if there is someone, how many people joined amway in that period.
You sound typical of the people I had the unfourtunate experience to meet in AMWAY. That is, you tell people that the only way to succeed in life is to join AMWAY. Nothing else will work.
If people ask direct questions about your buisness, quote undocumented statistics that no one can verify.
Then you make quotes learn’t parrot fashion from meetings or CD’s such as
“People who are successful DON’T make excuses! they fail, then fail again and maybe even again. But they don’t make excuses. They get up and make it work nomatter what. ”
Read what you wrote, are you saying that the only way to succeed is to keep failing, for how long? for how many times?. Most people aren’t that stupid.
Then if that does not work put people down, such as you have done to Tex (and he is in the same buisness as you.
It sounds like you are defending your side buisness.
thechaser on June 25th, 2009
Joanna
AMWAY is NOT this only way to succeed, its just one of thousands of businesses that exist that can be used.
The principle of failing to succeed can be demostrated in just about any biography of a successful person. Walt Disney, Ray Kroc, Richard Brandson, Donald Trump.. and the list goes on.
Are you able to name me someone that have succeeded WITHOUT failing over and over again. Many of these people have gone bankrupt multiple time in figures that you and I could not even make in a lifetime.
I have met peole in another organisation that have just reached a successful level in the business in 6months. They do emma page and artistry and balance that with sponsoring.
The truth is this, even when people give you facts on the pros on the business you have NEVER taken it on board or acknowledged it so your comments at the moment to me seems quite one sided.
Did you know there are people as we speak in Australia that is in negotiation with Amway Australia about how we could improve the biz by having a balanced approach to tools and Amway. These are BIG pins that are initiating the movement.
So please check the facts and then make some comments and not out of other people’s experiences. The internet is full of them.
Here is my reponse to your comments
Can you tell me in the last ten years, any one who became successful in AMWAY within 2 years of joining. And if there is someone, how many people joined amway in that period. – Check the Because magazine, Matt Roger and Choe Maxwell, Markrell’s (2 families), Booth… and the list goes on..Some I know personally and some by association. Secondly, define Success??
You sound typical of the people I had the unfourtunate experience to meet in AMWAY. That is, you tell people that the only way to succeed in life is to join AMWAY. Nothing else will work. – I have NEVER told anyone that and I have actually finished a plan recently with a young guy and encouraged to pursue what he was doing because he is applying the principles of residual income and duplication in his venture. I gave him some products to try but not the business.
If people ask direct questions about your buisness, quote undocumented statistics that no one can verify. – you have ask very few people, there are plenty of people that NEEDs to provide documentation to the Tax department. They don’t have to give it to you but there are sections in the tax law in Aust that applies to Amway so I think its safe to assume that there are enough people making some money to be there.
Then you make quotes learn’t parrot fashion from meetings or CD’s such as
“People who are successful DON’T make excuses! they fail, then fail again and maybe even again. But they don’t make excuses. They get up and make it work nomatter what. ” – name me one successful person outside of AMWAY business that didn’t use that kind of tenacity in what ever project they were pursuing. These are basic success principle not AMWAY principle.
Read what you wrote, are you saying that the only way to succeed is to keep failing, for how long? for how many times?. Most people aren’t that stupid. – most peole don’t want to try that why there are only a smal percentage that have the luxury homes and most only wish.
Then if that does not work put people down, such as you have done to Tex (and he is in the same buisness as you. – and mr big is wrong in doing that
It sounds like you are defending your side buisness. – you are attacking something without the full picture nor a balanced experience
X Pose on June 26th, 2009
Amway, the company is not a scam! It is a legitimate retail business that makes high quality goods.
The “plan” is not a scam either.
From my experience most of the IBO’s are not scammers either. Misinfirmed, misguided maybe!
Multi Level Marketing, in my opinion is a scam however. it borders on pyramid selling scheme (some suggest it is a pyramid, even though it has tangible products), in that every sale anyone makes also feeds those up the line.
The reason why so many people are against Amway has to do more with the way it is sold more than anything else. The sponsor is selling you a “dream” not just a business opportunity. However, it is always initiated under the guise of a business opportunity without any mention of Amway or anything associated with it. DISHONESTY.
The type of people that would fall for those “Nigerian minister requires your bank account to deposit $20 million” emails are prime candidates for joining Amway. People inspired by stories of rags to riches or the get rich quick schemers are also easy targets.
This is not to say that intelligent people don’t join amway. Quite the contrary. Although the highly intelligent among them are usually the ones sitting on top of specific pyramids and/or making money on the side with the books and tapes and seminars.
As for likening Amway to a cult, the similarities are there for all to see. Usually IBO’s distance themselves away from friends and family that don’t take up membership. Pretty soon they’re only associating themselves with other members.
Mr big on June 27th, 2009
Well said thechaser. Many of your points was what I was trying to get across. You worded it better though.
Joanna,it sounds like you’ve had a bad experience with this biz. Be aware that there are many different organisations in AMWAY and many are built very differently to one another.
Just to clarify, I am definetly NOT someone who thinks AMWAY is the only way to be successful. That comment is riddiculus. My father is a very wealthy property developer and does not do amway. I have chosen to because I want to make it on my own.
Amway is a cashflow producing business if it’s built correctly ( which most people don’t). I’m not doing it to be an “amway dude”, but rather to generate cashflow to do other things.
Also i was wrong for my comments to Tex earlier. That was definetly inappropriate of me.
X pose – you say in your opinion that MLM is a scam. And you also say that AMWAY is not a scam, which is true.
But an IBO’s amway business IS MLM. And is not a pryamid either.
So it sort of doesn’t make sense.
Tex on June 29th, 2009
X Pose,
Amway IS a scam, when one considers they have sheltered the tool scammers for about 3 decades, while millions of IBOs have been ripped off for probably 10s of billions of dollars.
Dan The "Realistic Amway Fan" on July 1st, 2009
Hi all, I have been involved with Amway now for almost 6 months but under the Network21 system as opposed to the IDA system. I have been successful in my regular corproate career but always felt that there had to be another way. I was introduced to Amway by a work colleague who was just a regular guy and had been involved in the busness for about 2 years. I have made steady progress in the business which was completely in line with the expectations I held and what was pitched to me in the initial plan. All of this garbage about Amway being a scam is absolutely ridiculous and is generally said by people that have not a clue what they are speaking about. Anyone can join Amway which is the best thing about it but it is the also the worst because you do come across the fanatical liars that will tell you anything just to get you in. This goes against all of the teachings of Network 21. Amway just supply the products and pay the bonuses, anything else that goes on in terms of the approach and the sales plan comes down purely to the individual. If the individual is a complete moron then chances are that they are going to be pushy lie, if the person is ethical and moral then they will let the plan speak for itself. There is no point lying to anyone in this business because if you do then you are just being an absolute tool. Do it professionally and the results will come. Network21 is the way the Amway business should be done. I have seen too many people from all walks of life and ages succeed in this business to believe anything that a disgruntled dropout has to say. IDA and all other systems teach their distributors to lie, deceive and pressure. Network21 (the largest of all the Amway systems) teach moral and ethical ways to make the business work for anyone that is willing to put in the effort. You know what amazes me is that all of these people crying SCAM have made no mention of the fact that 85% of people that start traditional small businesses fail in the first two years generally costing them tens of thousands of dollars. Out of 15% that make it past their first 2 years, a further 90% fail in the following two years. You want to talk about scams… how’s that one for you!!!
Don’t be so naive to think that a business that has lasted 50 years and turns over more than 8 billion dollars annually, operates in more than 80 countries and has never failed in any market that it has entered, is a scam…. I mean come on! If people are silly enough to spend more than they earn on anything, then it is just a matter of time before they get bitten on the bum. Think about it people, if you are so weak that you will spend money you don’t have just cos an upline tells you to then you really need to grow a backbone. People more than likely have walked over you your whole life and will continue to do so.
Cheers for reading!!
Dan The "Realistic Amway Fan" on July 1st, 2009
PS I apologise to people within the IDA system… No offence was intended but your system does have a bad reputation, however I know that you cannot stereotype everyone into one category. Long story short, look at the maths, conduct yourself with integrity, honesty and morals, make SMART FINANCIAL DECISIONS and the system works. If you choose to pressure people, lie, mislead and spend more than you earn just because an upline says so, you need a serious reality check. If your upline said jump off a cliff…
thechaser on July 2nd, 2009
Dan
I think unfortunately there are bad eggs in any system. I have come across people that was burnt in the N21 system as well.
What it really comes down to is the individual working the business. They each have to operate with integrity and honesty.
Under the IDA system there are several groups and I believe there is one that had the most critism because of the conduct of some of the IBOs, where as the rest of the other groups are still booming.
All in all, its what you make of it no matter what system you are in, find someone that you can trust and work with them.
Dan The "Realistic Amway Fan" on July 2nd, 2009
“The Chaser”
Hi there, I agree… there are bad eggs in every system. To be honest with you, I too have a particular upline (not my sponsor) that I personally do not get along with and who constantly tries to get me to purchase premium items. However unlike some, I know what I earn and I know what I can afford. If I cannot afford it, I do not purchase it. Similarly, If I do not want to do something my upline tells me to do because it clashes with my moral and ethical views, I do not do it. These people are there to coach and help you, they are not your controller or boss. The concept is simple. If people only took that one piece of advice and got into this business, their lives would be changed forever. One of the greatest things about this business is that you do not have to put yourself into debt in order to develop a substantial passive income. If your uplines had half a clue as to how to get this business operating efficiently for long term profitability then they would lend you their time and their products to assist you in developing your own client base and business.
It really irritates me that there are so many people out there that pass themselves off as “experts” when in reality they do not know in the slightest what this business truly has to offer. Wake up people, by speaking so directly about that which you are clueless, you are robbing people of what could potentially be one of the most rewarding experiences of their life.
FYI – Last year alone over 1000 brand new diamonds were broken world wide… that is 1000 people earning a minimum of $100k passive income whose lives have been changed forever. Over 3.5 Million IBO’s have all been brainwashed hey??? Come on, get a life would you guys. Personally to Mags who stated that she (or he) was “forced” into purchaing $20k worth of products, you are obviously one of the silliest people on the face of the planet. Did the upline kidnap your children and hold them to ransom? Did they hold a gun to your head? NO… You chose to purchase those items and you also chose to quit the business prior to selling them. Your fault. Stop blaming others for your choices.
All in all I would like to summarise by saying this. Can all black people dance? No… Are all Jews good with money? No… Are all Muslims terrorists? No… Stop categorising all IBO’s into one negative category because of the actions of a moronic minority!
Cheers
PS The chaser, I wish you all the best with your business. Good luck buddy.
PPS The Chaser, It would be well worth your while checking out the N21 pipeline system. It is bloody brilliant man. It makes the whole process so much more efficient and appealing to so many more people as opposed to the antiquated “frontline system”. Cheers mate, all the best.
Dan The "Realistic Amway Fan" on July 2nd, 2009
Hi again Chaser. Just so you know… that wasn’t all directed at you, but rather at the other whiners and so called “experts” that blogged previously.
GO AMWAY WOOO HOOO!!!!!!
Dan The "Realistic Amway Fan" on July 2nd, 2009
And to Joanna… Kevin and Tamsine Harris… Diamond in 10 months!!! Remember, better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt. That is phenominal success in way less than 2 years.
thechaser on July 2nd, 2009
Dan:
If my understanding of the pipline its about stacking people you don’t know down the one leg till you are about 20 to 30 deep. My concern in that is that its not profitable to start of with for the new ibo until they build a bit of width. And it doesn’t make sense to put personal sponsored people under someone else. Especially when that persons goes 21% and you don’t have the side volume. (you get nothing)
Not only that, its actually illegal to stack. So i think my understanding of the pipline is probably not quiet corret.
However it will make sense to put all the people that are some what related to one leg and drive depth that way. Then create the width for profit.
BTW, whats your LOS? where r u based?
My advice for most people reading is to actually try some products because you will find in most cases they are better value. So why keep paying the same money to someone else when you can spend the same money in a product that gives you the POTENTIAL (not promised) to make some money either by retail or building business.
If there is someone who can tell me that SA8 is not better value then OMO small and mighty or Dishdrop is not better value then Morning fresh.
The crazy thing is that most ‘experts’ will end up going to shops and buying some of these products anyway in a supermarket becuase they were ‘brainwashed’ to go there since the 50s. Most critics are not even old enough to remember the corner stores and how thousands of businesses were wiped out by people like walmart, woolies and coles.
Go to any country town and ask them about Woolie or Coles and the effect it has on small business in town. It wipes them out.
When coles went into a town recently, 8 butchers and various business closed as a result.Is that fair??? My theory is that if it works, and its better value why not use it. And is Amway wants to pay you some money for it why not???
thechaser on July 2nd, 2009
what group is kevin and tamsine harris??
they are not in Oz are they
thechaser on July 2nd, 2009
i see they are from south africa..
here is an interesting fact for those who they think its not possible to build a business in a market that has been ‘saturated’
The Harris couple build a diamond business in a environment that has been worked on for over 15years.
There was also a EDC in Charlottoe North carolina in the back yard of Dex and Birdie Yager…
The saturation of lookers is only in your mind not a fact.
thechaser on July 2nd, 2009
I hear that Kevin Harris is in Woollongong this weekend hey!
Dan The "Realistic Amway Fan" on July 2nd, 2009
Hi Chaser,
I am in the Sala LOS and i’m based in Brisbane although my business is now in NZ, Adelaide, Melbourne, Sydney, Pakistan and India. I am nearly at the 21% level. Not bad for 4 months worth of team building. And I couldn’t have done it without the CD’s, Books, Functions and the direct help from my sponsor who initally gave me countles books, CD’s and hours of his time and who has never asked for anything in return. That is the way the business is meant to be for anyone who is wondering. Not only do I own a business that is delivering to me a passive income stream that is the equivalent of owning $500k worth of property but I have had a ball doing it. I have met heaps of new friends and I have also helped many others get a grip on their finances and life in general.
Kevin and Tamsine Harris are from South Africa and were here in Australia for the WEC that was held on the weekend just past. Not entirely sure of who their upline is.
Yeah with the pipeline strategy there is definitely a balance that needs to be achieved between depth and width. Obviously depth gives you the stability and longevity and the width is your profitability. The pipeline strategy definitely is not illegal. The great thing about the pipeline is that you have many people all working in the same team towards the same goal. Someone can come into the group simply as a shopper, and by the natural progression of the business they can have a team built below them, resulting in a bigger and bigger rebate on their groceries (but obviously no profit). This is good for a couple of reasons: 1 because that person can see growth and progress happening with them putting no effort in which generally will encourage them to give it a go. 2 because it truly is a situation where you can build an asset under those you love without them doing anything at all. My partner and I put our loved ones right at the top of our pipeline and now because of that they have a business that is almost at 21% without them doing anything. They then have the option of getting started at any time and making good profit immediately. And this is exactly what my partners sister and her fiance are doing. They are about to step out and get outside volume happening immediately making them good money. I cannot describe how good that makes me feel as they really do need the money.
Where are you from Chaser? What is your LOS?
I’m glad that we are turning this blog site into a pro-amway discussion site HA HA!!
I was just chatting with my partner last night saying that I’m not totally sure why I read these sites sometimes… Most of the things that people put on them are just completely ridiculous and a total waste of time… It’s good that I can spend time at work doing this because I have a plan B and don’t care if I get the sack… Very soon I shall say to my boss…”I think there is something wrong with my eyes… I just cannot seem to see myself working here anymore!!!” HA HA retired at the age of 26 suck on that all you doubters!!!
By the way… Crackerjack point on Coles and Woolies smashing the small corner store. BOOOM!! Checkmate and Game over!!!
Good work Chaser!!
thechaser on July 2nd, 2009
Dan, good on you mate, this the time for your gen to give it a real crack..
I was part of the Avelsgaard team and have experienced some set back in leadership issues but is not back on track. I am based in Sydney, won’t make Japan this year but definately Hamilton Island… who hoo!!
Great to see you making it work, and I can understand what you mean by the rebate. The stacking is only illegal when you personally sponsor someone and placing them in depth as that is stacking. If it peole putting their family and friends in the one leg then that make sense.
Well keep doing what you are doing because there is some fantastic stuff happening in QLD. someone I know was running the cafe in the center in Brisbane and had the privilage to go to the sala’s house and various diamonds there. he said it was the best.
And I believe Rogers and Chole are going exceptionally well up there too.
The Harris was sponsor by their double diamond parents in Oz, Basil and Leonie Harris.
Dan The "Realistic Amway Fan" on July 2nd, 2009
Ahh Duurrrr…. I’m an idiot, i knew that they were sponsored by their parents… Just had a brain fade. Yeah I don’t think that I will quite make it to Tokyo this year but I will be in Hamilton Island for sure. Yeah Chloe and Matt speak at all of the previews up here and they were MC’s for part of the N21 WEC the other day. They are now executive platinums I think and they are almost in qualification for Emerald. You’ve got to admit that they have a bit of an advantage though. Being celebrities and directly sponsored by Amgad and Melissa Ghabriel (I think they are double or triple diamonds) always makes this business quite easy. Matt and Amgad are best mates.
Remember to keep your chin up mate… he who shows the most plans wins!!
We both have seen enough to know that it works… You will only miss out if you stop.
Yeah I had a bit of a chat with Mitch the other day, haven’t made it to his house as of yet but hey, it’s something to aim for.
Just keep going Chaser, you’ll get there. It may be worth your while checking out N21 if you are going through a tough patch. The pipeline really does make it so much easier for all involved. Obviously no crosslining but bit of system research may give you a fresh outlook on things. I think the best approach is a good mix of Pipeline and Front Line because as Mitch says, you can never go too wide!!
You’ll find a way!!
thechaser on July 2nd, 2009
yeah we are now utlising the QI system working with the Larry Winters group from the states. a balance of width and depth.
its really good now that we have it cranking, one of larry winters guys put in 900 pple in 12 week window last year, the ‘Poor’ guys was in emerlad qual b4 reaching platinum all using the QI system… they show about 60 plans a week.. LOL talk about momentum.
Mitch is absolutely right, you can never go too wide. I believe last year the winters group broke 27 emeralds and above in the one year.
i know that a good balance of QI and retail is going to rock.. the business is starting to kick off now. It really shows thats leadership is everything in this business.
Matt, Gad and I use to play golf together. It was great to see Matt give it a crack after 7 years of ‘not interested’… LOL it just shows you how important it is to show the business with integrity and not the ‘you have to get in or else’ attitude.. it gives the biz a bad name and you never know who you will blow away.
Dan The "Realistic Amway Fan" on July 2nd, 2009
Spot on, the people who succeed are the ones who lead from the front and follow people who do the same. The carrot is always more effective than the stick!!
Dan The "Realistic Amway Fan" on July 2nd, 2009
Hey isn’t it true that his name is actually Gad, but people call him Amgad cos he’s in Amway and it’s a cult where everyone has to change their name??… I’m now Amdaniel…. ha ha ha…
Dan The "Realistic Amway Fan" on July 3rd, 2009
For anyone that is wondering about some actual documented referrals to network marketing, go here.
thechaser on July 3rd, 2009
Gad is for short… where is tex and joanna??
Dan The "Realistic Amway Fan" on July 3rd, 2009
Ha ha yeah i know his name is Amgad… He uses the cult joke on one of his N21 CD’s “Options and Hope”
Hmm Joanna and Tex hey…Cat’s got their tongue…
thechaser on July 3rd, 2009
Thats funny, he is a good guy… has a good group… double diamond group is not a bad income… from AMWAY!!
Dan The "Realistic Amway Fan" on July 3rd, 2009
So I take it then Chaser that you live in Sydney or Melb?
thechaser on July 3rd, 2009
yeah, I am in Sydney we have a big group up in brisbane with the guilck and clarks and deanes
Tex on July 3rd, 2009
Dan/thechaser,
When you can respond to #563 in an intelligent manner, rather than fawning all over each other, let’s talk. Otherwise, BOTH of your uplines make much more via the tool scam and most IBOs below Platinum operate at a net loss. All of your rare stories of success are mere distractions of the facts, and most of them will burn out faster than a 4th of July firework, only to be replaced by another “success” story.
Dan The "Realistic Amway Fan" on July 7th, 2009
Tex,
When you write an intelligent comment, then you will receive an intelligent response. Until then I think it best that you do research into the statistics relating to traditional small business, the expenses involved and the failure rate and then tell me that Traditional small business is any better than an Amway business. If you actually think that the tools associated with building an Amway business are a scam then you obviously have no idea what you are on about. If you know of anyone that has built a successful business without the CD’s, functions and literature, I would be extremely keen to know of them. The companies that produce these tools are a business and due to that fact have to run at a profit hence they need to charge more for the CD’s than what it costs to produce them. These companies are not charities, why do people expect them to be?? When you go and buy an audio CD from a music store to you cry “SCAM” when you have to pay $30? How dare the artists make a profit out of producing a CD!! I tell you $30 for an audio CD is more of a rip off than $8 for a CD containing valuable intellectual capital. In the end it all comes back to this fact… If you don’t want it, if you can’t afford it… Don’t buy it. WOW, what a concept.
thechaser on July 8th, 2009
dan
the response from Tex will be;
its a ‘bait and switch’ thats why its a scam.
You can’t win this one, Tex doesn’t believe that there are people in the organisation that DOES not force people into buying tools. He had a bad experience with his upline who shunted him because he doesn’t want to buy the tool. Which made his point valid.
However i am on the other hand has a good upline that has never forced the issue even after two years. I am going to a sydney major while the others are at a melbourne major. Same groups that we are working with but differen LOS so that to me shows that there are people who does not operate like some of the big pins operate out there.
You can only represent your business as well as you can and let the critics do what they do best. Critisize. Some people will always criticize even when facts are presented.
My upline have always declared his income from tools and the 3 functions that he runs. Sometimes he runs a loss at functions and sometimes a profit. Just like any other business.
Matthew on July 10th, 2009
Dan #587:
No doubt that some people succeed in Amway, some with the tools that Tex refers to, and perhaps some without tools. Now I am from the US and I believe Amway sales here are shrinking, there is much negative publicity about Amway, and I don’t know of too many new diamonds or crowns or other pins.
As I said, while I’m sure there are some successful people, there far too many failures for every one that succeeds. It’s true that not all IBO’s have unethical upline, but unfortunately, there are enough of them to saturate the blogosphere with a lot of bad experiences.
Tex on July 11th, 2009
When you write an intelligent comment, then you will receive an intelligent response. —- When you write a factual comment, then you will begin to have a clue. What did I say that was wrong?
Until then I think it best that you do research into the statistics relating to traditional small business, the expenses involved and the failure rate and then tell me that Traditional small business is any better than an Amway business. —- Amway is touted as superior to a traditional small business, but the typical prospect/IBO doesn’t have a clue most of the profit comes from the tools, and most IBOs don’t make a NET profit until about the Platinum level.
If you actually think that the tools associated with building an Amway business are a scam then you obviously have no idea what you are on about. —- If you actually think that the tool scam associated with building an Amway business are not a scam then you obviously have no idea what you are on about.
If you know of anyone that has built a successful business without the CD’s, functions and literature, I would be extremely keen to know of them. —- I never stated I’m against tools, I’m against the tool scam. Get a clue. By the way, we can talk about this via Skype if you wouldn’t mind your ego getting in the way: http://texsquixtarblog.blogspot.com/2009/01/talk-to-tex.html
The companies that produce these tools are a business and due to that fact have to run at a profit hence they need to charge more for the CD’s than what it costs to produce them. —- The issue isn’t covering costs or making a reasonable profit, the issue is making INSANE profits and pretending their success comes from Amway profit. Also, these “companies” are owned by the LCKs and pay out to their Platinums and above.
These companies are not charities, why do people expect them to be?? —- Where did I say I expected them to be charities?
When you go and buy an audio CD from a music store to you cry “SCAM” when you have to pay $30? —- No, because it is obvious that selling CDs is where these people make their money.
How dare the artists make a profit out of producing a CD!! —- Why is this?
I tell you $30 for an audio CD is more of a rip off than $8 for a CD containing valuable intellectual capital. —- No, it isn’t. The music CD is worth EXACTLY what someone is willing to pay for it. The LCK CDs, in contrast, are made by our upline “teammates” and “business partners”, who hide the facts listed above. Apples and oranges.
In the end it all comes back to this fact… If you don’t want it, if you can’t afford it… Don’t buy it. WOW, what a concept. —- That is not the fact. The FACT is the UK shut down the tool scam, and it needs to be shut down in other locations, such as Australia and the U.S.
Luke Skywalker on July 14th, 2009
The big issue is that people are enticed to join Amway so they can own their own business, retire early and live on easy street the rest of their lives, happily ever after. That’s how someone is recruited. The sad reality is that the greedy upline just wants more “customers” for their tools scam business. They don’t really give a rat;s ass whether an IBO succeeds or not, as long as that IBO is dedicated to buying into the tools scam/
Tex on July 14th, 2009
Luke – BINGO!!!
djdaniel on July 18th, 2009
you people are idiots if you think you can get rich selling amways toilet paper and other junk products. no ones buys that shit! get a fucking job losers!
martin on July 18th, 2009
my girl asked me to respond to lauren when she attacked some friends of ours.
i have not read all the ramblings about the amway debate but would like to say this. i am a successfull property developer in my own right and have run many construction entities so business ventures are not new to me. my girl has been introduced to amway / IBO system and signed me up as a partner. i do not need the motivational tapes etc so i dont buy them.. no one HAS to. deb had purchased some initially and got some value and understanding of the business…it’s called study. due diligence. she no longer needs them so she has stopped purchasing… no pressure, ramifications, penalties or anything negative from anyone in her group. she attends meetings when it suits her if she feels a certain meeting will be to her benefit. i really cant see what the problem is. and this fallacy about pyramid business. it’s a basic structure and concept for all businesses. as a developer i supply stock (projects) i require project managers under me who require builders under them wh require a multitude of trades under them who require even more subcontractors under them all the way down to the apprentices. it’s only the principle of leverage. something lauren would have learned if she read the book she was given. all i’ve seen here is what i’ve always known…those that want something do something, you want it badly enough you’ll do anything to achieve it. whinging about others who are doing something about their plans (dreams). Amway is not a scam but like any business / franchise / or venture you need to look at it openly and see if it’s for you. if not, don’t give up, but find your niche.
Tex on July 20th, 2009
dj, many people became “rich” selling Amway’s products. Then some of them realized they could become much richer selling the tools to their downline as well.
martin, most people don’t come from a position of owning their own business like you, and therefore buy into the idea the tools are necessary to build a larger business. Since you haven’t built one yet, you have little proof it can be done without the tools. The issue isn’t the tools, which I think are necessary, but the tool PRICES which result in huge tool scam profits.
Stanton on July 29th, 2009
I believe that the upline got greedy selling tools and it became the business instead of Amway. I also believe that the tools once served as training but that is not really true today. These days the tools are nonsense, especially when they teach crap like the facts don’t matter, or that young kids should skip college to join Amway. The entire tools business has outlived it’s usefulness and should be dumped, along with the entrenched upline leaders who teach this garbage.
Tex on August 3rd, 2009
Agreed, although the tools in general have good content. Once the IBO is aware of the tool scam, it is quite easy to mentally filter out the BS.
AD on August 11th, 2009
I find this debate incredibly interesting. My husband and I were appraoched 2 1/2 years ago by a stranger to check out a business opportunity. It turned out to be Amway. I felt my heart plunge. But we had tried some many other ways to get ahead and were sick of doing broke. We are hard workers and always put in 110% to everything we do.
So you know what? Despite our reservations and fears…we gave it a crack.
It has not been easy…we have to contend with a lot of different ideas about what it is or is not. We have gone to all the functions, read the books, listen to CDs etc etc….and the most resounding comment we get from people is how much we have changed…how happy we seem and how positive we are. Is that so bad? What else is there…home and away….that certainly does not pick you up (and I would have said that before becoming an amway head!!!!)
After 2 1/2 years, we have helped heaps of people save a stack on money on their shopping – works out to be about $1000 a year on cleaning products, healthcare, insurance, phone bills and personal care. Many get regular cash rebates of up to $800 a month – these are the people who are working away.
We now earn on a monthly basis over $3000 (that is equal to a sizable property paid off in full). If this surprises you…it certainly surprises us. We were the most negative people about this to start with. But we just gave it a go…we really had nothing but $100 to lose (sign up cost. Last year, we made over $25 000 extra for this thing. Crazy.
What have we got out of it…we have meet some awesome people, changed our outlook on life and are off on a free holiday later this year.
I certainly agree that it is not Amway that does the wrong thing by people…it is other people – the same as all other walks of life. Amway pays on time every time, and if you send something back, they refund your money. We pay $40 a month for cds to hear from people who have done this thing…how much money do you waste on entertainment? I have never heard on a cd someone encouraging people to dump their job or study. Quite the opposite.
At the end of the day…all we have done is buy some stuff just like we would from any other product supplier, got some money back for using this stuff, paid a little bit cheaper price (over the long run – gotta look at the cost/ use vs the price of item. and shared this with other people. Some say yes, some say no.
What is wrong with not giving up on your dreams and trying some different ways to get ahead. Think about this….if I was your sister and had a shop selling whatever…would you support me? If I was your sister selling soap powder at 20 cents per load instead of 50 cents per load and the stuff was from Amway…woudl you still support me?
It is great people have opinions but if you want to know go see for yourself or call someone out of the phonebook – look under Amway. I have heard it said before…if you want to be a doctor, you would not ask a plumber how to cut someone open…same thing applies.
Take care.
Levi on August 15th, 2009
“I certainly agree that it is not Amway that does the wrong thing by people…it is other people”
So ponzi schemes are okay because it is not the ponzi scheme that hurts people, it is the “other people”, like Madoff?
Ridiculous.
How many downline of AD is losing their shirts so that you can make $3000 a month?
Anthony on August 15th, 2009
Amway is a system by which requires hard work and a desire to accomplish something beyond the average employees reach. You are all employees who are used to working “40-hour” jobs and are expecting pay until the day you die. Amway is simply an opportunity to produce passive income. Call it what you want but if people are making $100,000 a year off this, it works. ENOUGH SAID. Go on with your simple employee lives trying to get somewhere with your horrible money managing skills. You get on the internet and find people WHO THINK they know all the answers. If you were to meet them… in real life, you would never take their advice. But, since they have a flashy name, you’ll consider 1000s of their opinions. Listen to those who experience it and know for a fact that it’s a bullet proof system if you work it the way that its TAUGHT. Assuming in this business will hold you back from achieving great goals including financial independence. If you have something negative to say about Amway, go ahead and say it. Just know that it’s 2nd to Walmart in distributing. Which means, a private company is 2nd to THE BEST PUBLICALLY TRADED DISTRIBUTING COMPANY IN THE WORLD. So consider that and the fact, regardless of your harsh, irrational, ignorant comments, they’ll make money and your words of misguided wisdom don’t mean a thing because you haven’t produced.
thechaser on August 15th, 2009
Levi:
That statement basically states that you don’t understand what a ponzi scheme is so why don’t you do some research on the definition of a ponzi scheme before making a stupid comment like that.
Besides, how many people do you know lose their shirts by switching brand of some cleaning products???
No one in my downline buys or do anything that they don’t want or can’t afford but I do make a small profit out of their normal purchases. So does that make me a bad person because I make a profit out or some product movement in my organisation???
So is it ok for a CEO of a company to make 160Mil a year while the majority of the employees in the company is struggling to make ends meet at the ground level of the organisation??
loz on August 16th, 2009
Amway is the way of the future and the best opportunity in the world today! It is the third biggest debt-free company in the world and is my means of getting free!
I love this business, the people and the opportunity, what other company flies you around the world free and hands out huge bonus checks?
I personally know many many people at the top and it works and mark my words this is what the average man will be involved with in the next 20years,
I love this business and will totally support the truth. There is no point listening to a negative opinion with no facts as this is simply that..an opinion.
Get the facts
its not for everyone…but i still cant understand why! Its fantastic!!!
lolitsraph on August 17th, 2009
I got a call from my sister one day asking if me and my girlfriend would be interested in a business proposal… curious, I thought sh*t yeah why not, I’m keen to make some money, so I asked her if she could tell me what it was about over the phone but she wouldn’t and just said come to the meeting. So me and the mrs went and met her and some other random guy in a suit, he introduced himself, friendly enough… so we started discussing this business proposal he had – which is this thing called i-commerce which is AFAIK the same sorta thing as AMWAY, anyway he was really pushy, kept asking us if we thought we would be interested (after mentioning 5K+ a month… sure??!) so yeah he had our attention though I thought things seemed a little bit off so I kept asking questions about how it worked and how you made money etc. but he wouldn’t explain that to me, just said come to a meeting and it will all be explained much easier.
I wish we hadn’t gone…
My god. It was bad enough that we were ridiculously underdressed (hoodie and jeans) and a tad intoxicated… surrounded by all these super dressed up people.. all different ages, race etc. it was weird and I thought I was going to church.
Anyway it was basically just an hour of some guy trying to “sell the dream” as I’ve come to know it as, selling the same story the guy we met sold us. It was creepy, while he was giving his little testimonial, people in the audience would “mmm” and “yeah” and lots of nods. I half expected to hear an amen… :/
anyway wasnt really keen after that, but ended up getting convinced into listening to another CD… so on the way home we cranked it and goddam it was just another 40minute advertisement… all this talk of emerald and diamond. We gave it back the next day and said we werent interested… since then my girlfriend has seen the guy and his wife (also a member, also veerrrryyy pushy woman) about 4-5 times when they came through her work…
my personal opinion about amway/i-commerce is that sure in theory it works, I can see how you could make money off it, it would be a lot of work… but it can be done. But… everyone I met that was in it, was f*cken creepy. Everyone seemed so fake and plastic… so overly happy and smiley… it didnt look right. thats what put me off. and now after reading this blog and doing research on it, Im glad im not involved with it… its a bad idea lol.
just not keen
Tommy The Machine Gun on August 18th, 2009
“Amway is simply an opportunity to produce passive income.”
How many of you here can honestly claim you earn some of this passive income? I can put a hundred bucks in the bank and collect passive income as well.
thechaser on August 19th, 2009
well, let see… i make an extra 1000 profit every month.. so how much do you need to have in your account to make that much every month??
so yeah, there are people making that money…
Tommy The Machine Gun on August 20th, 2009
The difference is that I deposit some money in the bank and I could do nothing, nada, zero effort and I will make a positive gain. The more I deposit, the more I get. Your 1000 a month requires effort (like a job) and it is very likely that your downline is losing money in order for you to get that 1000 a month.
thechaser on August 21st, 2009
what gave you that idea??/
i have a guy in the business who i have not seen for over 18month and he is still banking $1000 a month.
and what made you think that everyone is losing money??
are they not purchasing things that they are using on a daily basis. Unless you have seen a different way of building this business but there is no one in my organisation that buy or do anymore then they want to or can afford as thats what I told them. I have people doing anything between 20pv a month to 150pv a month.
My guess is that you are basing your assumptions based on what you have heard and not seen?
My question remains, how much money do you need to make and extra $1000 a month based on a 5% interest?? and how many do you know that have that kind of saving? I think its about 20 – 30K?? would be correct.
did you know that I can sell my business just like an asset. and because the total turn over for me to make $1000 a month the business is about turning over about $140k worth of product and that is what can actually sell it for. The business is actually about building an asset, just like saving up money.
Some choose to do it this way and some other way but it does not make the Amway business wrong.
Did you also know that like of Richard Brandson, Warren Buffet and many other entreprenuer actually OWN several of these networking companies???
Sound like you have some facts but not all of the facts and at the same time are making a lot of assumption about other people’s business based on what you have heard. Just my guess, I could be wrong. and if so I apologise.
Quentin on August 21st, 2009
I joined Amway in 1986 in California. ‘International Executive Development’, IED was the group. I wish I hadn’t.
After 2 years of listening to dozens of tapes, going to scores of minor and major meetings, trying to sponsor J C Penney guys, etc, I gave up.
I rejoined in Australia in 1992. IDA was the group, Independent Dream Associates or something. I wish I hadn’t.
Again I spent around 3 years listening to scores of tapes and went to hundreds of major and minor meetings, talking to all and sundry about ‘the business’, showing ‘the plan’ to many. I left the business again.
I joined again in 1997 or 98, I forget. This time it was another group, can’t even think of the name, not so well organised as IDA but still busy. Again I wish I hadn’t.
I lasted a year or two, time heals all, gave up again, then rejoined same group because of a slimming scheme around 2001, got slim, almost died and this time, gave up for ever.
THIS IS MY ADVICE.
Unless life has taught you that you are the type of person that people like to follow, DON’T JOIN.
If people tend to bridle at things you suggest, DON’T JOIN.
If you don’t have a reasonable circle of good friends, DON’T JOIN.
If you are not a ‘people person’, DON’T JOIN.
If you cannot envision half a dozen long term friends joining with you in the first six months, DON’T JOIN.
Honest advice. Unless ALL the above things work in your favour, DON’T JOIN.
Amway is an honest enough business but many of the people in it will CON you into thinking you ‘can make it’.
Well, without the above attributes, you will NOT make it.
Be HONEST with yourself even if THEY won’t, and when you realise the type of person you are, make a decision based on THAT realisation.
Unless you have serious pointers, such as the ability to make a GENUINE list of 20 good friends, of which maybe 3-4 that you can seriously imagine joining you, DON’T JOIN.
Because very few indeed have such a list of good friends.
Derek on August 22nd, 2009
The Chaser,
I read the last handful of comments and your argument had more holes in it than swiss cheese.
You “THINK” you can sell your Amway business like any other business owner. You are dead wrong. Go check with Amway and tell the readers here the real truth. I know someone who sold an Amway business at a significant level and after all the trials and tribulations, he/she got very little. Why do you think diamonds quit? Why would anyone quit if they could sell the business or walk away and get passive income for life? The answer is obvious.
Warren Buffet owns pampred chef. There’s a difference between owning an MLM chain and being a player in one. If Buffet or Trump were distributors, you might have an argument.
FYI, I was in Amway at one time. I was advised to skip paying my rent so I could attend the next big functions. I was told the products were 30% cheaper so it was a no brainer to join. Well, upline lied. Amway is not cheaper than WalGreens. Amway is very very expensive. Quality is subjective. In fact a buddy of mine was told to have his family “fast” a few meals so he could buy more cd’s and books. This guy had young kids and upline told him to basically let them starve.
Please don’t give me no BS that this is a God approved business. No sir, the way it’s run by upline crooks, the guy with the pitchfork and red suit is the one advising upline.
thechaser on August 23rd, 2009
Derek:
I did not make a comment about selling the Amway Business as any other business owner. I made a point that you CAN sell a Amway business. I also know someone who did sell a Amway business with a significant level of TURN Over at a diamond level and got plenty to show for it.
One can sell a business at a certain pin without the turnover of that pin, if you have being in the business then you know and emerald may not have a emerald business but have a pin.
Secondly, I never made a comment about making passive income after selling the business. its sold and thats that, you get nothing from the business.
The business CAN be sold, but there are procedures in place as to who gets first bid. Its not like a traditional business where its open market. So that I know is definately different however the fact still remains that a solid platinumship still is an asset which can be purchased by someone else who is platinum and above.
If you had an upline that told you to starve or skip rent so you can get to the next function then you DO have a crook upline. My sponsors have always told me if you want to get to the functions and you dont have the fund then retail some to make the money. Run this business like a business and watch your profit and lose. You don’t spend more then you can afford.
This is not a God approved business, its just another business that can be build like any other. We just put in over $400k worth of product in my traditional business and I know for a fact that I wont be getting that back for the next five years where as my Amway business can be run at a profit from the beginning when done right. The problem is that most people don’t do it right.
I personally have never found SA8 more expansive then OMO or Artistry more expensive then Estee lauder or Napolean. To me these were no brainer. I rarely encourage or promote cheaper shopping as I know they are not value, but there are plenty of things that are good value.
The point that I was making about Buffet or trump is about their approval in the networking business as an industry. Nothing more nothing less, most people have a misconception about what network marketing is about.
I cant change the experience that you have had with your upline or your business group but all I can share is my experience with my upline, my team and my own group. So do have some respect for those who run a decent business without all the crap that you may have experienced.
If my arguments were filled with holes please let me know and I would like to fill it with some facts. As you can appreciate blog comments can be interpreted in many different ways by the reader.
BTW, google Warren Buffett and Network Marketing and you will find that he owns more then just ‘pamper Chef’ which was purchased in 2002
Former Amway Dude on August 25th, 2009
The Amway business opportunity overall, is a bad one. Yes, some people can succeed and some people can run a legitimate business in Amway. The problem is that the people who run ethical Amway businesses are the exception and not the rule. The big groups that recruit and sell their systems are mostly corrupt and operate unbridled, without Amway actually overseeing and kicking out corrupt upline. This turning a blind eye to the corruption has given Amway a bad name and people run when you mention Amway.
Because the payment plan is based on having downline (if you want serious profit), those below you must bear the burden for your profits. So if you make money, you can bet your downline isn’t.
the chaser, why would a diamond sell the business if he could collect residual income? How do you know he got plenty for selling the business? Did you see the details of the transaction? Or is it a fairy tale like the many IBO’s who claim to profit and then disappear when questioned about income?
The fact that there are far more bad upline than good ones is the reason why Amway needs to be cleaned up. These corrupt speakers might talk to hudreds of thousands of downline IBO’s in the course of a year and that’s just too many victims for the scam to go unpunished.
Christie on August 27th, 2009
Just want to point out that I am not a victim of a MLM Company. I was introduced to NuSkin (which is related to Amway), and after doing my research (because I am not a NAIVE or BLINDLY OPTIMISTIC individual) I decided not to go through it.
My opinion, anyone that decides to go through with a MLM company deserves to be F***ED OVER. Because you are no better than the con artists at the top… scamming loved ones, family, and friends (with the list these executives suggest you to make in the beginning) to buy these products from you and in return, you’re taking money out of loved ones pockets!
thechaser on August 29th, 2009
Christie;
You HAVE done a great research haven’t you.. so I guess you are calling everyone in Nutrimetic and Tupperware and AVON as con artists??? How narrow minded!!
Just to show that you have not done your research properly, NUSKIN is NOT related to AMWAY even at the slightlest.. they are direct competitors… there were people who started the NUSKIN business that were in the AMWAY business and that where the connection ends.
Former Amway IBO on August 31st, 2009
Yep, Nu Skin and Amway are not related in any way.
Amway is still a scam and most people who get involved end up with less money than they started with.
Dianna on August 31st, 2009
the Chaser, and the rest who are taking care of their book and tape buisnsess.
You said that stacking was illegal in AMWAY. Well it sounds like I was in the same line as you. And thats how they work it. I didn’t know my direct upline and didn’t know my direct downline. Does that mean that your orgization is dihonest?
thechaser on August 31st, 2009
Dianna:
Not sure where u are coming from. We don’t stack, we build width and help to build depth. Thats the plan so I am not sure what u mean about dishonesty?
Former IBO
Are you saying that Tupperware, Nutrimetic and AVON are all scams too? AMWAY is part of an industry so with your experience are these other business illegal too?
Former Amway IBO on September 1st, 2009
Amway is a scam. Amway IBO’s are morons. That’s why “thechaser” asks if I was saying that tupperware and Avon are scams too. Did I mention any of these companies? No, I didn’t. I said Amway is a scam.
I repeat, I said Amway is a scam. The uplines are liars and crooks. They just want to suck people into their systems and sell them an endless supply of cd’s and function tickets and they don’t care about what happens to the downline IBO’s.
thechaser on September 1st, 2009
Former Amway IBO:
you must had a crap upline, my upline(s) have always cared about my business regardless of where I was in PV or tools.
We encourgare balance of retail and sponsoring which makes the business profitable. The two streams of retailing are Artistry and Emma Page mixed in with some XS and nutriway. So please do tell me how you think Amway is a scam yet we have people running businesses just like AVON, Nutrimetics and Tupperware in party plan format and sponsoring. Hence the girls are making good part time income with those two products and by sponsoring we leverage the time.
What you are referring was that YOUR upline are Scammers not AMWAY. Amway has being doing a lot of thing to tidy up the mess that some leaders has created. I have said it before and will say it again, there is a BIG difference between AMWAY and IBOs. What most people experience are IBOs and not AMWAY.
If you are close to any of the major cities in Sydney, Auckland or Brisbane there are Amway stores you can actually walk into to see and experience the products so as far as I am concerned is that you were either a bad operator and did nothing and just went to the functions or you just like to read the net and lump AMWAY into a special category that is different to the other companies that I have mentioned.
Ps. for those who don’t understand, AVON, Nutrimetics and Tupper follow the same kind of distribution plan as AMWAY. They are all part of the direct selling industry, so one would have to say if AMWAY is a scam then the entire industry will have to come into scrutiny.
Former Amway IBO on September 1st, 2009
Yes, but Avon isn’t considered a scam. Amway is. It’s because too many uplines are abusive to downline. Since I sat in a function in an arena with 50,000, I’m not alone. Also, my upline used to talk about how they had functions like this all the time so who knows how many millions of people got scammed.
You might be in a rare group that teaches retailing but the majority of IBO’s get scammed, therefore, Amway is a scam.
thechaser on September 3rd, 2009
Former Ibo:
you have still yet to explain why you think AMway is a scam yet Avon is not while they have the same kind of compensation and bonus rewards.
What you have mentioned are functions that are NON related to Amway, these function are run by Uplines in their Business building groups and not by the company.
So if you have a problem then you should be blaming the uplines and not the company.
Amway does nothing more then manufacture, distribute and market products. The IBOs unfortunately can run a muck as its not like a Traditional business where you are employed by a company. IBOs are NOT employees of Amway.
And do you think that everyone that joins Tupperware or Nutrimetic make MONEY??? so if they don’t based on your theory they should all be classified as Scams, right?
What ever made you think that by attending functions and seminars will make you money??? If thats what you were told and believed it then you are the fool in the equation not the company.
You are paid on two things, PV and BV. that means the total turnover in your business based on your structure is how you will be rewarded. You do the work in the right format and YES you WILL be paid.
There is now and additional $1000 per year just for people who is doing the most basic level of 3% pin so you CANT tell me that you can’t make money just from buying a few things for yourself when you can make and extra $1000 just on Personal volume of 300pv a month. (including some customers).
Mate you need to get up to speed with whats going on!
Dianna on September 4th, 2009
the chaser,
What I am saying is that I was “sponsered” into AMWAY, but the person who “sponsered” me was not directly above me. Also people directly below me were not “sponsered” by me. According to AMWAY’s rules that is illeagal. Yet it is no condoned by anyone in your organisation. In fact it is must be condoned at the highest level of your organisation, because it is not stopped.
Dianna on September 4th, 2009
Hey the chaser,
comment 607.
if you haven’t seen the guy for eighteen months. how do you know he is banking a thousand dollars a month???
Can you check his deposits?
Dianna on September 4th, 2009
the chaser,
Comment 620,
The people who sell Avon or Tupperware indentify what company the represent straight away…the don’t use the “curiosity method”, they will usally say the company name straight away, they won’t say things like i-commerce.
Former Amway IBO on September 4th, 2009
The Chaser said: Former Ibo:
you have still yet to explain why you think AMway is a scam yet Avon is not while they have the same kind of compensation and bonus rewards.
What you have mentioned are functions that are NON related to Amway, these function are run by Uplines in their Business building groups and not by the company.
Former Amway IBO says: What a bunch of BS tapespeak. Amway has a leech called BSM companies attached to them that suck the blood out of IBO’s. Avon does not. Avon reps sell Avon products, Amway IBO’s buy from themselves. Avon reps do not lie about Avon and trick people into recruitment meetings. The Amway owner acknowoledged the tools scam in his 1983 speech but then took no action.
These functions are run by unethical upline, yes, but unbridled by Amway and they could not sell their useless cd’s and functions without their leech business being attached to Amway, although some leeches moved onto Mona Vie.
thechaser on September 5th, 2009
Former IBO/(maybe Tex or Michman)
So are you saying that the BSM are PART of AMWAY; well, as you know they are NOT.
All you have mentioned is that the functions and some uplines are scams and not the company.
Amway has being cleaning up the mess by putting accreditation in place as well as the UK market having no tools. So is AMway UK still a scam???
I have never heard anything on a tape that says anything about what I have just mentioned so unless you have some strange tape floating around in your collection. All the tape I have ever listen to are about productivity and moving pv and speaking to people.
AVON reps sell AVON, AMWAY reps sell Artistry, Emma Page and Nurtriway and what ever else is in the system. Amway is encouraging 150 PV to 300PV circle with a balance of self consumption and retailing.
Do you think that Avon rep WONT buy for themselves. Surely they would if they are half decent at what they do.
Diana:
What you have being exposed to is illegal, so have you reported to the company or do you just assume that we don’t condoned it? Because there has being very big diamondships that were terminated because of things like that. I know that the N21 were doing them in the past and some other organizations but as far as I know they have stopped doing that but some groups are still continuing with the process.
I recently had someone who was going to leave their LOS because of that reason but I adviced them to speak to their diamond upline and confirm information and speak to the corp to sort things out. All ended well.
As for the person that I haven’t seen for a while; that comments just proves that you have not being expose to the business enough as I can check in my LOS tree (on website) and work out exactly how much each business is making based on their structure and volume so NO I don’t have to see their bank deposits to see how much he makes.
In the old days we use to have to work it out manually and send them checks so that how we know how much people make without seeing them.
And for the comment about Amway people not identifying themselves; Some of my girls do Artistry and Emma Page, so they identify themselves as Artistry and Emma page consultants so is that a misrepresentation? I don’t think so, but are they associated with Amway, Of course they are. But If they have mentioned that they were in a Amway business would you have known that they are qualified Artistry skin care consultants or Emma Page Jewellery party planners.
I don’t create curiosity with the Icommerce approach, the reality is that I am trying to find out whether you think there is a possibility of making money by participating in a direct selling industry. if you don’t then why would i want you in my workshop or team.
Like many people who have being exposed to the business in the past its not what it use to be nor are all IBOs the same.
The business is tainted with crooked ibos and critics on this forum who voice their opinion based on the smallest amount of facts that they know about.
Check http://www.mlmfacts.com
PS. Former IBO: based on your comment about leeches moving to Mona Vie does that mean Mona Vie is a Scam now because they were a clean company just like other network marketing companies.
Like I said before, you are tainting the image of a company based on the action of the individual operators and not the company themselves.
Renee on September 8th, 2009
Well all i can say. if it was so easy everyone in the world would be doing it n we would all be living the dream of having heaps of time n alot of money…I have been involved with a few differnt companies that dont class themselves as being MLM but what crap if all there products n systems where so good like i said we would all be doing it!!!!!!!
Tina on September 8th, 2009
i would just like to say thanks to everyone on this site.
i had a an old school friend come and try to get me to go to a’workshop’ but now i have learn all this info i think i am happy and don’t need aything money or to feel important i’m great and i’m sure everyone should and would be happy with what we have.
Joecool on September 9th, 2009
Thechaser is acting naive, as if he doesn’t know the relationship of Amway and the LOS. Nearyl all IBOs belong to an LOS and each LOS has some version of tools that they sell. The tools are an issue because upline sells it as a conflict of interest with the downline IBOs.
Do IBOs really need training and motivation as you say? If Amway products are as good as you say, customers should be able to google it and buy it from an IBO. If the opportunity was as good as you say, why do so many IBOs need to deceive and lie just get get people to see the plan?
If IBOs actually made money, they would not need motivation to stay interested in the business. The income would motivate them.
But the fact is that Amway products in general, are not special compared to other goods that can be bought elsewhere. Furthermore, they are more expensive because Amway must pay bonuses on the sale of their products. And you need tools and motivation to keep IBOs interested in Amway because there is no profit (for most) for IBOs.
Those are the facts.
thechaser on September 9th, 2009
Joecool;
there is no relationship between the Amway business and the tools. They are two seperate entity.
do people need training when they start anything new, of course they do. this is no different.
my LOS talks about retail and uses Emma page, artistry, nurtiway as flagships in retail.
We are taught to have 300pv of personal usage and retail so each IBO is profitable. But do all IBOs do as they are told… NO. Just like do all employees who goes to the same training seminar come out exactly the same. NO.
The income does motivate them but the fact is that most people like the people who have shared on this site have only seen parts of it and have made a judgement on something that is based on other people’s business.
Joecool have you even seen the most recent sip where a person on 3% is receiving an additional $1000 just buy creating a few customers a month??? I bet not.
You are right, products are nothing fancy nor special but the fact is that you will be spending just about the same amount of money in a retail store.
I just finished helping a brand new couple going through their household items and replaced it with Artistry, Tolsm, nutriway, and XS and I can assure you they definately SAVED money based on what they were spending.
Its all how you present the business and how you operate the business.
I have just invested another $500k worth of stock into my traditional business and with additional staff you have to be a dumb business person if you don’t think I will be charging that cost to my customers. So your concept of Amway must pay bonues on sale of their product as making them expensive is just simply silly.
Supermarkets purchase from multiple agents who purchase from multiple wholesalers who purchase from multiple manufacturer and THEY ALL HAVE TO COVER THEIR COSTS and PROFIT. and that is a fact.
So if Amway is selling sanitarium cereal at the same price as Coles or woolie and they are going to profit share with me as well as giving me a 21% discount on my purchases then I am sorry I will HAVE to buy from AMWAY because My UPLINE MADE me… sorry that was a a bit sarcastic wasn’t it.
Furthermore, if IBOs actually did something and sold some products then they may actually make some money.
You don’t make any money by going to the functions.
Last but not least, customer can just email Amway and purchase a product and they WILL refer you to the nearest platinum… and yes, it does happen as we just had to sell a water filter to someone who was interested… so people… don’t be so naive.. there are decent operators out there doing a decent business. Pull yours heads out of the sand and actually go to the AMWAY warehouse and the shop and speak to people who work for AMWAY and get some REAL facts.
Now those are the facts as well
Joecool on September 10th, 2009
Thechaser, you are repeating old and tired upline deception. The tools business and Amway are seperate, yes. But Amway can be sold without tools. The tools cannot be sold without Amway. There is a distinct relationship and the Amway owner acknowledged it in 1983 (Directly speaking).
People “need” training when they start something new? Says who? If Amway has been around 50 years, why would an IBO need training to sell an established product? Do you teach them to direct traffic to their website or do you teach them how to recruit more IBOs? And how much training does someone need to sell household products? You aren’t saying much about the intelligence level of IBOs as a whole.
How do you eanr $1000 with just a “Few” customers? I call BS on that. Please explain.
WalMart says they will match any printed ad for identical products. Does Amway? No.
If Amway was as good as you say, Amway would be growing in the US, not shrinking. Why did they change the name to Quixtar and then back to Amway? I doubt you will answer this one.
The fact is that Amway in general costs much more than WalMart and the fact is that most IBOs who give Amway an earnest try end up losing money because of the tools.
You cannot disprove that. Those are facts.
thechaser on September 10th, 2009
Joecool;
new SIP
hold 300PV for 3months (included personal usage and some customers), extra $100 for the 3rd months; continue the process then extra $100 per month on top of the 3% rebate for the rest of the year. Adds up to $1000 extra. We do 300pv on our ears with Emma page parties and artistry clients plus personal usage. So i guess you can take that comment about the BS back.
I agree with about that Amway can be sold without tool, no arguments there.
We teach people retail, redirect some purchases as well as finding people who may want to do what we do at a capacity that fit them ie. Emma page, Artistry or what ever they choose. Hence we do have training for them.
Does Walmart pay you or send you on trips by referring your friends there or personal shopping?? NO. Deoes Amway? Yes.. so whats your point. They are not even in the same category. We have created a great business in retail and sponsoring just having products such as XS and Nutriway and in our market they are extremely competitive in price.
Oz market have just grown 16% over the last 6 months so thats all I have to go by.
As for Quixtar name to Amway, can’t help you but I do know that owner are taking back control of the name as THEY believe in the company and is trying very hard to rebuild its reputation even though many IBOs have tarnish the image over the years. there is no shame in the name AMWAY itself but there is certainly plenty of shame in some of the action by IBOs. But that is the same in any corporate world and even in Churches.
If an IBOs are taught only to buy tools and not ever to retail then YES they will lose money. My group are taught to have customers from day 1 so I can’t help but to you that we DONT lose money as we are funding the tools via the PROFIT that we make out of customers. yes, its may be rare but thats all I see so I will still defend MY business till the cow comes home because those ARE my Facts.
If you are a new IBO and are not intelligent enough to see that there is a need to create profit to fund the business then they are probably not business owners in the first place.
Any half smart business people knows to control their cashflow; why not take some responsibility to the fact that you have not plan the business as you should have.
if everyone treated this business as if they have just spent $500k into it instead of $100 then perhaps I would respect their response but I have yet to meet anyone who has quit and blamed the business that have treated it like a real business with business plans and careful control of cashflow.
Joecool on September 11th, 2009
Thechaser,
Walmart doesn’t “pay” me to shop there but comparable or identical items at Walmart are almost always cheaper than Amway. Also, if I use a cash back credit card, then I do get “paid” to shop at Walmart. Frankly, the savings I get by shopping at Walmart exceeds what I would get “paid” by shopping thru Amway. And Shopping at Walmart takes less effort than being an IBO.
If you teach retailing, that is good. I agree that’s how an IBO should operate, but Amway admits (after a lawsuit) that 96% of Amway products and goods are sold ONLY TO IBOs. That means the vast majority of IBOs do not sell their goods, but self consumes.
It is my observation that many LOs will mention retailing in big functions but in team meetings and on cds, the strong emphasis of the teaching is on recruiting more IBOs and dedication to buying tools.
You talk about watching cashflow and being responsible. Well, many upline will tell you to trust them and do what they advise and you will be successful. Since many downlines are friends or family with their sponsors, they do what they are advised and they are often advised to buy more tools and not to question upline.
I agree that the business should be run like one. Unfortunately, those who do much of the teaching want submission and a sheeplike following. You can deny it but there is much evidence that it is alive and well today. I gained access to an LTD member blog for example, and many of their members spoke explicitly about submission to upline being important to their success.
thechaser on September 11th, 2009
Joecool;
I am not dismissing the fact that many LOS do not operate in ways that is to be respected.
I just here to defend a business that I believe can be operated in a way that is profitable and by teaching others to be profitable I can be of benefit in the long run.
What is interesting is that there are people within my organization that even though have come from the same teaching but due to human influences have completely the opposing view to myself yet they are in my group… is the the problem of the company AMWAY or is it something that needed to be dealt with at an IBO level.
What many people criticize it the company as they associate the behaviour of IBOs as one that reflects the company.
I have a lot of respect for my uplines (severa l diamonds and emeralds all working together) and all of them have given me advice of not just complete submission but learn to operate as a business owner. I guess I am just lucky in that way that our LOS is a little different in culture.
the stats about selling IBO can be bit obscure as I personally will do anything between 300 to 450pv each month year non of them will register as a retail customer as they are all ordered via my number and serviced by me. If AMway looked at my business they would think that i am a 100% user based on stats.
We just saw a diamond go over and they have only about 25 to 30 IBOs in each leg and they all teach 300 to 400pv circles with a balance of personal usage and retailing. I guess i am just pointing out that we are only a small fish in the whole game and there are many of us out there doing this biz properly and the company should not be bastardised because of silly action of others.
The fact is, it DOES work if you do it properly.
Davey on September 11th, 2009
Hi There
My mother did AMWAY and she spent a load of money on books, tapes and going to meetings she did all what was asked of her by attracting people into the dream she also recieved two little diamond shaped pendants and was told she was moving up, but she never did even after all the hard slogging she had to do.
AMWAY is a scam if you really look at it, those people right at the top who are walking around in furs and driving flash cars with their big houses and giant yachts trying to sell the DREAM it’s not them that have to do all the hard work any-more it’s the people at the bottom that are doing all the work while the bigheads reep the benifits.
AMWAY products are no different to the ones you buy down at the $2 store or from the pharmacy they just have AMWAY on it.
I would rather work my butt off and bring home a modest paycheck that gets me through to next payday rather than trick people into spending money and time on an idea that never really works at least i know my conscience is clear.
You believe what you want to believe not what some-one else is trying to make you believe.
Bert on September 12th, 2009
Amway is not a scam. You ought to be there and done that to comment on it.
Also, the fact that there is a 3 month money back no questions asked for being a distributor shows how legit this is.
thechaser on September 12th, 2009
Davey:
You are right, you can continue to believe what you want to believe. No one will make you believe anything.
I can only tell you whats in my situation and that is we have about 15 to 20 active people in our group do some part time work in Artistry and Emma Page making anything between $150 per month to $1000 per month (In retail volume). So as far as I am concerned this idea WORKS, and its a fact.
If you think that AMWAY products is just the same as the one down at the $2 dollar shop then your information is obviously not founded on any facts or personal research but personal opinion.
We have had people who take that products into their Labs and done comparison on other commercial brands and they ALL come out cleaner and healthier.
But I guess you can choose what you want to believe; the point is, when I sell a piece of $50 bangle I make about $20. You can’t tell me that is not an honest business.
Secondly, I have about 12 staff in my traditional business and i can assure you that I am racking all the money at top because if there is an employee that is making more then me then i will be questioning my cashflow.
The las time I checked a CEO of a company is making about 36million dollars a year, how is that tracking with your week to week paycheck. The point is, those who create the volume and the structure based on the plan will reap the rewards that the plan says. It doesn’t matter when you start. There are people who started 20years ago and is ON TOP of me in my organisation and is making WAY less then I am. So i guess your theory of a pyramid shape just doesn’t add up does it.
I am not discounting what you have seen, but I am also just simply presenting what is also truth from my perspective.
Tony Taylor on September 13th, 2009
Things must be different in England, or perhaps the business has changed beyond all recognition. When i was involved 15 years ago you did NOT under any circumstances buy any stock. This is a characteristic of scam pyramid schemes. Also as far as i can remember sales of motivational books, tapes and seminars did NOT count towards your bonus payments, so what you say about just selling the dream is also not true. Any top distributer earning big money is there because they have spent hundreds or even thousands of hour building a large team. Those at the bottom earning peanuts are there because they have done nothing. How much more ethical can you get ?
Having said all that, i myself got nowhere with the business. Nobody was interested in joining. People are far too sceptical these days and always suspect a scam (thanks to t.v. programmes like ‘Watchdog’ in England.) I couldn’t even sell any products as they were far too expensive. The fact that they were highly concentrated didn’t matter to customers, all they saw was the price.
In spite of the ‘Winners never quit and quitters never win’ tagline I found the whole business extremely stressful and quit.
thechaser on September 14th, 2009
tony:
you will be glad to hear that the business has taken a great change in UK. I have a few people over there and its very different to what it use to be.
prices has dropped as well as the way things are done.
Depending on where you are it will be really worth while to check out the Experience Center in London. Its fantastic, you would just love it.
Email me if you want more details as to where to find it. crwglobal@optusnet.com.au i am in Oz btw
some links for you re UK biz
http://www.amwaytalk.com/united-kingdom-republic-of-ireland-f21/amway-uk-price-comparison-t880.html
http://writersblock.opportunityzone.com/2009/05/15/Oh-what-a-night.aspx
Joecool on September 15th, 2009
Thechaser, can you post unbiased factual evidence that Amway products are better than others? The only report I know of was consumer reports and it is over ten years old that suggests Amway products are average at best with premium prices.
If you are actually running you business as you describe, I commend you but you are a very rare group that actually sells goods. The vast majority do not, and that’s why the opportunity is a scam. Too many emphasize tool consumption without regards to profit or sustainability.
Being able to make more than your sponsor is not a factor in whether the compensation is pyramidal or not. It’s still the higher ups making more than those below, and the key being that because so few products are sold to non IBOs, the money made by those on top, is coming directly from the pockets of those below.
In a large company, yes, the CEO might make the most, but it is from company profits and not from the pockets of their employees. Plus in Amway, whatever little is made by IBOs ends up going towards tool puchases, which basically ensures that the entire group as a whole loses money as the tools cost more than the profits the group earns as a whole.
MichMan on September 16th, 2009
the chaser (or ibofb/icerat), you say:
“Former IBO/(maybe Tex or Michman)….”
************************
Wrong. Not me. (And I am not going to read 639 posts to figure out WTH you are talking about.)
Cobalt on September 16th, 2009
When I was in my late teens I was approached by an elder from church that I was friends with, asking if I was interested in a “business opportunity”. He wasn’t able to provide much info and said it would all be explained at an upcoming meeting. I’d only heard a little bit (unfavourable) about Amway and asked him if it was. His answer was a clear NO. I was genuinely interested in the “business opportunity” and was happy to attend.
The meeting went for about three hours in the evening. There were some familiar faces amongst the group – acquaintances; that reassured a little. The range of BRAND NAME products (Beri, Sanitarium etc.) was explained and how it worked. It sounded like Amway but it was only right until the end that the name was used.
I felt so cheated and deflated – really ripped off, that THREE hours of my life had been taken from me like that.
A couple of years went by, and just talking in passing I asked my friend how his “marketing” was going. He said he’d left it after realising it was more about motivational books & tapes. Thankfully he even apologised for lying to me.
About two years later another friend put a similar “offer” my way, at the behest of his father-in-law to be. I knew what it was and went with another friend as a favour to make up the numbers. The meeting of five or six was held in the garage of my friend’s mansion house. We were asked if we were happy with life, and we all were. My friend was doing okay in his mother’s huge house. I remember being told the people who ultimately own/run the business also own a company that makes yachts for the super rich. My thought was “don’t they have enough?”
Today an old acquaintance met via work came to my workplace (I own a business) to discuss briefly a “wealth creation” opportunity. Very sketchy on detail, familiar brands mentioned, business coaching, refused to say if it was MLM. On the basis of such little info I said it wouldn’t attend an upcoming meeting – where it would have all been explained. Simply that “it wasn’t for me”. He had an I-COMMERCE leaflet. So I find myself here!
There’s probably a whole scope of logic but what I find distasteful about these types of MLM “systems” is that old friends etc. appear from nowhere with no other goal but self-enrichment and that personal interactions (family, friends, colleagues) are debased to simply being OPPORTUNITIES.
TL on September 24th, 2009
I have just recently been approached by an old friend about AMWAY. I am truly ashamed to admit I fell for it, straight away. I currently work in afterschool care, which I love, but is only part time. I am casual and do not get sick leave, I have been very sick this year, and have been struggling financially because of this.
So when I was told I could earn an extra $1000 a month it was the answer to my problems. I have however been unsure of how it actually works, I have been sold the dream with little explanation of what I need to do.
Again I am ashamed to admit, a friend I had rung, to refer, enlighted me to the fact that it was a scam, asking me if I had heard of pyramid sceams, so I decided to sit down and do some research. After spending a few hours reading all of these bloggs, my conclusion is to RUN and run fast.
So thank you to Luke for this website. And thank you to everyone’s stories, information and opinions. Even though AMWAY does work for some, I definitely know that it would not work for me.
Nero on September 28th, 2009
It is sad to see so many people referring to this business as a ‘cult’. The dream is never made out to be anything but that, a dream. If you are looking for $1000 a week within a year, Amway is not the business for you. If you are looking for $1000 a week within 5 years, Amway is still probably not the business for you. But if you are looking for a business that can provide you with a full-time income on a part-time work schedule, and have a real flow of passive income waiting for you when you need it, Amway may be right for you. There is no ‘scamming’, there is IBO’s trying to sell a dream and people like you all who are scared to see past the word ‘Amway’. Think about sales people at clothes shops, they use whatever manipulative techniques possible to try and get you to buy that gorgeous new coat, but that is alright. IBO’s try (note, try) to sell you an opportunity that could provide you with a large amount of passive income, and that is apparently a real issue. It is hypocritical that you see one as a ‘cult’ and one as basic retail practice.
paul b on September 28th, 2009
i was told about this by a good friend who i trust, he and his partner had signed up by some lady who she hardly knew. my friend told me about this great buisness venture but never could tell me much about it. i agreed to go to a meeting with the leaders and they went through the plan with us talking about the ‘dream’ etc. and how easy it is, your going to be so successful, it is a life changing moment etc etc. i thought this sounds good and signed up straight away. our leader then told us about all these seminars coming up and some big trip to sydney for a 20 or 25 year anniversary. and about siging up for these cd’s and motivational material. all these things cost money! few days later i did some research and found certain websites about the amway or network21 scam.
i decided i wanted out after a week, i’m not saying it can’t or doesn’t work but i looked at the amount of money i was going to be investing compared to the return i was going to be getting! a lot worse off let me tell you.
it has been 2 months since i have resigned and i am still trying to get my $172 sign up fee back, i keep getting stuffed around by them telling me different things everytime i call them. so much for the 90 day money back guarantee.
my friend and his partner are still involved but not having much success in signing people up.
the amount of time and effort it takes to sign 1 person up is alot and i can’t beleive i got sucked in to this.
i would rather earn my from a hard days honest work, not buy having to sell my sole just to try sucking friends, family etc in to this sort of business!
Chess on September 28th, 2009
Hi all from New South Wales, Australia. I found this blog on a google search for “Amway scam” because my friend’s son has been suckered into signing up as an IBO and he came to my home to try to convert me. I am a journalist from England, where Amway’s name stinks. I’m well aware of how close it came to being kicked out of the UK last year and how the “executives” over there had to clean up their act to avoid a total ban. Of course, they haven’t had to do likewise over here, where they operate free of constraint.
This poor young sap (he’s just 20) wouldn’t believe me, mainly because he doesn’t want to, and it has put a strain on my relationship with his mum because she has been suckered into swallowing the spiel too.
So, I just wanted to say – very well done to Luke for starting the blog, which is among the more readable resources I have come across in an effort to convince my friend and her son that he should quit right now. I haven’t had time to read it all but the company’s propaganda sticks out like a deformed, septic thumb for anyone who wants to spot it.
Good luck to you all, and remember – if you want to get rich, you have three choices: marry a millionaire/ss, work your butt off, or be prepared to rip off every sucker you can find, not excluding your own friends and family. Or as we say in li’l ole England: If wishes were horses, beggars would ride. And: A fool and his money … but you all know that one.
thechaser on September 29th, 2009
Chess, did you read the Business section of The Australian Newspaper???
Or have you missed the fact that XS energy drinks grown 20% over the last two years consecutively??
People work hard in this business just like any others. We sold 15 units of espring water purifiers as a group and running just like any other business. WE sell stuff, and sponsor those who want to start their own business whether its Artistry, Espring, Emma Page, or XS…. what ever they want it to be.
All you have seen is what you have heard and read, the AMWAY business is not the problem. Its the people,
you don’t need to be converted if you are actually looking. You are obviously very happy doing what you are doing but don’t put down someone’s ambition down just because you haven’t got the guts to step out and start your own business.
Run this business like a real business and you will have the results of a business.
How many people on this blog that has commented can claim that they have created over $1mil dollars worth of turn over in a business of their own?? My guess is not many, if thats the case then you really don’t have a clue how to start one do you, so what make anyone an expert on what this business is all about???
Joecool on September 30th, 2009
The Chaser said: “All you have seen is what you have heard and read, the AMWAY business is not the problem. Its the people”
Joecool says: Organized crime isn’t that bad, it’s just the people. What has Amway done to the abusive LOS leaders? What controls does Amway have to curb abuse that makes their name look bad? I have said it before, IBOs are their own worse enemies. The Amway critics just point out the crazy stuff that IBOs do.
Chess on September 30th, 2009
I am self-employed, thanks, Chaser. I do have my own business, selling my own skills as a freelance writer and copy editor. I love what I do and don’t need to step on others’ necks to make a living. Guts don’t come into it. You say “Run this business like a business” – but you are doing that at the expense of those below you, the weaker of whom will possibly come to grief. Do you care that your profit is necessarily made on their backs, because that’s how a pyramid system (or whatever other label you want to put on it) necessarily operates?
By saying “It’s not Amway that’s the problem, it’s the people”, you are effectively admitting that the company has no control over the people who do business in its name. That’s scary enough, but what’s even scarier is the obvious fact that the Amway management don’t want any control, so that when fingers are pointed at them over immoral/illegal business practices, they can say innocently “It can’t be our fault, we didn’t authorise this and knew nothing about it.” Ever heard of the buck stopping at the top? Just because these bad operators are not directly employed by Amway, it doesn’t (or shouldn’t) absolve the company of responsibility for any or all actions taken in the name of Amway.
If Amway is really so great for everyone involved, why the subterfuge, equivocating – or let’s speak plainly here, lying – as to what Amway is, how it really operates, who actually makes the serious money, and from what products do they make that money?
And why the organised mass indoctrination sessions? My friend’s son is already evincing the signs of brainwashing – excited, evangelistic-style parroting of a company script, exaggerated claims of prosperity for anyone who signs up to the cause, determination to convert others regardless of their clear statements of uninterest, and point-blank refusal to believe any criticism, however well documented, of this organisation he has joined without really understanding what he is getting into.
I’ve warned the lad’s mother to watch his activities and that if he starts spending disproportionate amounts on motivational CDs etc, she should get really worried. She now accepts that, at least. Whether she will be able to do anything to help him if he reaches that stage is another matter, of course.
Amway may well be a great set-up for those who are strong-minded and ruthless. Amway products may even be worth the high prices, I don’t know, I haven’t tested them. But I don’t oppose entrepreneurship, far from it. I have bought Tupperware at parties where the saleswoman quietly takes my order and money, then delivers the product. I like Avon and buy their products occasionally, but my local saleswoman doesn’t have glazed eyes and recite propaganda about undreamed-of wealth.
Amway hasn’t attracted all this adverse comment for no reason and if you genuinely want to defend it, Chaser, from any viewpoint other than “I’m all right Jack”, you need to address the criticism seriously, not just counter with “You’re gutless and you’re wrong.” Over to you, I’m listening.
EX WWDB-er on October 20th, 2009
Bridgett Says:
December 13th, 2008 at 5:23 AM
For the record:
WWDB recognizes people by the pin at which they CURRENTLY qualify.
Not true: They give you up to two years to requalify if you fail to qualify. And I won’t mention the PV manipulation they can pull at times.
joanna on October 20th, 2009
Chess,
Well written. The silence from The Chaser says it all. Really you can’t defend AMWAY. The majority of people will never make a dollar. And the people who think they can will keep trying to sell a dream to people who never will.
joanna on October 20th, 2009
the chaser
You sold 15 units of “espring” water purifiers as a group.
My questions are…How many people are in your group? How many people in your group brought these water purifiers for themselves? and how many were sold to people who are not involved in AMWAY?
Joecool on October 22nd, 2009
Joanna, Amway itself said less than 4% of their products are sold to non IBOs. Also revealed was there are about 4 IBOs for every 1 customer of Amway products.
Without IBOs themselves consuming all the products, Amway sales would be tiny.
Michael on October 26th, 2009
hi guys, haven’t read through everyone’s post here (lunch break is only half an hour … LOL), but is all bringing back memories. would have been sometime in 2004-05 when “THE PLAN” was shown to me and my girlfriend at the time, at first sounded hokey and too good to be true, but we signed up and attended the seminars once a week. the idea of passive income obviously sounded great, and hearing about these emeralds and diamonds (i remember a giant hardcover book which detailed many american and australian success stories, with glossy pictures of giant houses, etc etc), it all made it seem achieveable. but in the end most people i knew just wouldn’t “fall for it” as i think maybe i saw through the shiny veneer of amway and “THE BUSINESS” and they too could see that i thought it was BS.
i’ve recently “considered” re-joining, but know it’s no different and i think i’m safer in my 9-to-5er and enjoying the company of my friends & family (as opposed to SELLING THE DREAM and SHOWING THE PLAN give nights a week). good luck to those in the business however!
thechaser on November 1st, 2009
Joanna:
The silence is because we are actually busy SELLING some products. 60 units last month was sold and 40 orders next month as a group…. ALLLL customers and non ibos so seriously get a grip on your presumptions.
Drive to Castle Hill and speak to someone in there working IN AMWAY and ask them how are sales going.
So if my customer wants to sign up to receive wholesale price, does that mean he is she is NO longer a customer??? give me a break.
Joanna
Let me ask you a question, when was the last time you built a business? if you have never built a business then what qualifies you into making a judgement on my business when I am doing all the work and making the money???
The reason why we cant defend Amway on forums like this is that there are some hard core critics that actually ignores the fact that there are ibos that does SELL product…
a recent diamond sold 60 units of espring in one month (customers) when he first qualified and his income that month from those sales were $40K (in espring sales along)… how does that stack up with your 9 to 5 jobs.
You want the money, you do the work. Period. if you don’t want to do the work… then stop the complaining… because its actually working for some, just not you thats all.
thechaser on November 2nd, 2009
Chess
for the record, if one spend too much money on just cds and books then actually doing something in the biz then that wrong.. but it still doesn’t make the business wrong.
UK seems to be doing fine without the cds
Joecool on November 3rd, 2009
TheChaser,
The problem with IBOs, is that most do not even sell enough to pay for their website fees. While you may be doing that, which is good, most IBOs do not and what’s more, most IBOs are taught to simply “buy from themselves”. Most IBOs lose money because of this. While this may not be you, the fact remains that most IBOs lose money.
That means Amway is not a good business opportunity because most people who sign up end up with less money than they started with, and I’m not talking about those who “do nothing”.
thechaser on November 3rd, 2009
Joecool:
We have just been to major conference where AMWAY have said that they are encouraging retailing; and they have created a market in Emma Page and various other products to encourage retailing as well as encouraging Retailing event sales in the market place..
There has been some major changes in the market that you may not be aware of, my UK group is very much retailing, sponsor and service.
In my definition attending functions and listening to CDs is good but when it comes to improving turnover in a business its still NOTHING. So when an IBOs says they lost money on functions books and cds are usually not doing some of the basic things such as referring product and selling products
my point is just because you are consuming what you use does not make you LOSE money, as you are spending what are going to spending.. unless the person is naive enough to spend more then they use
Brooke on November 4th, 2009
I think this discussion is hilarious. People are so misinformed. I am also apart of the Sala Organisation with N21, based in the Gold Coast. Mitch and Deidre are amazing, I love their cds. I attended the weekend conference in Sydney last weekend and had the pleasure of hearing Jim and Nancy Doornan speak. This isn’t a scam. It does work, but you have to put the effort in. My fiance and I are very lucky to have such amazing mentors Mandy and Tony who are Emeralds. My fiance and I are using the trip to Hamilton Island next year as our honeymoon. An all expenses paid honeymoon, what more could you ask for? This is great not only for making passive income but also working in the teams gives you great friends for for life. And if you don’t like it, you simply walk away WITH YOUR MONEY BACK.
Joecool on November 4th, 2009
TheChaser,
I heard upline talk on stage about retailing also. Then when we had smaller team meetings, our platinums would tell us that retailing was not our priority. That we needed to build our organizations. They speak correctness on stage to give the appearance that that they are teaching properly but it isn’t their true intentions. I believe this still happens today.
thechaser on November 4th, 2009
joecool:
i was referring to the company and from people talking about how they retail.
Our personal group teach personal consumption, retail and sponsor.
I know my emerald does the same, his diamond, and diamond and so on.. so they preach what they do.
However that is not to dismiss your info about some groups doing otherwise. They are very unlikely to sustain growth or business long term as there is no money flowing anywhere if there is no product flow.
Brooke:
Look forward to seeing you at Hamilton, I am looking forward to playing golf on Dent Island.
i have people working for me that is part of the David Coymns group which has Sala as one of their downline. and also another person that is part of the Cox group who is just around the corner from me. So yeah, I am surrounded with success yet all these people on the forum are claiming failure… go figure.
AD on November 5th, 2009
“I certainly agree that it is not Amway that does the wrong thing by people…it is other people”
So ponzi schemes are okay because it is not the ponzi scheme that hurts people, it is the “other people”, like Madoff?
Ridiculous.
How many downline of AD is losing their shirts so that you can make $3000 a month?
No one is losing their shirts so I can make $3000 because no one is doing anything or buying anything they do not want. The money comes from the volume of shopping through the team – Amway pays the money based on the percentage of that volume.
So I suppose all of Woolies and Coles customers are losing their shirts to pay for Frank Lowry’s next holiday home cos that is where their money is going… What about us poor suckers who work for major corporations and get paid peanuts while execs get the big bucks?
Comments like this blow me away…shows total ignorance of how the money in building a team of CONSUMERS works. We are doing nothing more than buying our ‘stuff’ through Amway and sharing this with other people. It is pretty simple and straight forward – no smoke and mirrors; just shopping and if you are keen selling some stuff.
How many people on the weekend recommended a restuarant or book, or movie, or hairdresser? Same thing with using Amway products – recommend people change where they shop and you get a percentage of the profit Amway makes. NO shirt losing unless you are a complete dolt and don’t folllow the system and get your self in debt trying to reach targets.
I know that none of us who think this is an awesome way to make money can change the minds of those who are so deadset certain this is a scam and you know what…it does not matter because those that take the time to look at all sides, research this, meet the people, and try to products and get over that it is Amway will benefit. The others will keep doing what they are doing – bagging those who are having a go!
As for those who wail that all who do this are crooks or horrible people have obviously not looked around their workplace or neighbourhood lately….bad people doing bad things to people are everywhere and this business is no different because we let anyone have a go!
If people are not making money, then they are not trying – again just like everyday life. You have those who complain life is unfair but do nothing about it. This business is like any business…you have to DO something to make it work. I know I tell people I share this with they can do one of two things – save some money changing where they shop or two make some money selling products and sharing this with others…and if you do that, you have to do some work.
I don’t suppose anyone makes money shopping at the supermarket? Cos I know when I buy my toothpaste and bake beans, I get a percentage back saving me some dosh and when people under me do the same thing, they save a few bucks and I get a cut. Oh…as does everyone downline of me who has built a team (who have my help to achieve this).
It is so good that not everyone is part of this amazing opportunity because it means it is here for those who really want to have a go. I imagine the people who say they failed at this or know someone who failed or got ripped off etc etc etc probably give up most things at the first signs of the going getting tough. You don’t have to be a ‘type’ of person to do this – you just have to be willing to have a crack and not give up! Cos that is the only way it does not work or you are not following the process.
Where does the money come from? Amway does not have huge overheads – they don’t spend millions on ads in tabloid mags or TV, they don’t have shop fronts everywhere – they pay those who are building a business proceeds from the profit they make and those who are not building a business get a percentage back on their shopping from these same profits. They also spend a stack on research.
I find it amazing when people generalise about this business and do not realise the bad things they say about it can be applied in most areas of life.
For those cynics…continue to be so…it encourages debate and discussion.
And if there are people losing their shirts in my business…then they should quit! No one is stopping them – this is not a prison or slavery; it is free choice. Oh…did I mention they could get their money back on their joining fee within 90 days and ALL the products have 90 days money back on them!
We just got back from Tokyo – a free trip!!!! We worked hard to get there. We have never been overseas before and it was fantastic. Three years ago…it took me some serious convincing this was legit…my husband built this one his own for two years. Over time, I kept researching it (not just reading people’s ill informed comments on the web – such a great lazy way to ‘research’) talking and the whole time using the products.
It works and you could make it work too!
thechaser on November 5th, 2009
AD:
Well said, you must be in the mosh pitt somewhere when Merrick jumped off the stage.. LOL
AD on November 7th, 2009
Aboslutely!
And I will be on Hamilton Island and be bringing people with me – perhaps that is what detractors mean by ‘losing your shirt’ – you have to get it off to lie around in the sun on a tropical island!
I am fairly certain the people I am helping to make an income outside of their job are grateful I got over being cynical and negative!
See you in the sun
dave on November 10th, 2009
i have been promised that in few years time i will have enough money for the rest of my life. i am self employed and i already earn 70 to 90 thousand a year before tax, anyways i had this guy telling me that i can earn alot more money working for them get all these trips and bonouses. But after reading some of this stuff im confused now. so if there is people that worked for them, i would really need an advice on what i should do??? is there any1 here that is rich from this??? i have alotof good friends which i respect and wouldnt wana fukem up with this if it is a scam. NEEED ADVICE
thechaser on November 11th, 2009
Dave:
you dont work for them. you are a independanr business owner where who ever sponsors you will help you build your team.
you are paid one two things, product flow and product flow.
you want more money then you learn to leverage off people time who see this the same way as you do otherwise they can just be a customer.
But know this, you will need to do the work but when its set up correctly you will have the ability to receive residual income as your organization will continue to PURCHASE product as they are using it anyway.
there are plenty of people who have reached their goals doing this; rich is a very difficult thing to define. Whn you have the ability to lead an organization of 1000 IBOs then i can assure you the money will be flowing.
i would encourage you to look at the plan properly and if you are anywhere near a major city either in Perth, Sydney or Brisbane then go to the business center and talk to some of the people working for the company and try some products and gain some product knowledge and confidence in the company as you have never heard of it.
You will be seeing a lot more Media advertising from the company in the Australian Newpaper as there are plenty of people who have only ever HEARD about the business and made a lot of assumption not based on facts.
Who ever approached you should not have made any promises as there are no promises in business. If you have a goal then there is some work involved and there is a certain structure you need to have to build the business to yield the results you are looking for.
If you need some more info email me at crwglobal@optusnet.com.au
hope that helps
rolando on November 15th, 2009
What a lot of Crap!!!!! I’m a member, not a business builder,first of all the products are the best you can get on the market, especially the vitamins, PURE QUALITY!!!. The business principle is the best you can find, I personally know a lot of people who are very successful in the amway business, they actually retired from their jobs, those people are the nicest people you can find. I have never met any more helpful people. The seminars or functions are the best way to get people motivated, and I can say that with absolute confidence because some of my staff went to a couple of seminars without being involved in the business. Now they have become the most motivated staff I ever had.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH AMWAY!!
In my opinion, those people who put Amway down usually have no idea at all about the business and apart from that never been successful in any other kind of business, how come that does not suprise me??
I do encourage everyone to check it out, spend some time with amway business people and then make up your mind. If you still very negative after that then nobody can help you, sorry to say that.
I’m very successful in my own business, but I also know that I will eventually join the world of Amway.
I guess you always find those stupid people who can not handle successful people.
Get of your Bum and do something useful!!!!!!!!
sarah h on November 15th, 2009
Sarah:
you say you can walk away with your money back?? Why is it that my partner and I are still trying to get our money back then after 2 months? We have spent hours on phone call after phone call speaking with people who just give us the run around and are clearly only interested when you are handing your money over. My advise would be to be very very sure before you sign up because trying to get your money back from these people is a painful and long process.
thechaser on November 17th, 2009
Sarah:
Have you try getting money back from Optus or a phone company or any other corporation? I can assure you that its just as if not more painful.
Ring the company, and write a letter of resignation and date it. I should be fairly easy from then on.
Corazon on November 18th, 2009
Hello Everyone,
I think EVERYONE has to say about anything, I mean ANYTHING! What i can say, is that people are just happy what they are, what every their life maybe. Guys, we just need to accept that, it is up to us to change our lifestyle. Some people may want to be part of Amway or to be one of them. Who cares as they Luke said it is not illegal anyway, that is the important thing. Come on! How about illegal drugs its illegal but people used it, why!!! Because they have freedom to chose their own life. Hey, as long as they make you beautiful, healthy and happy what else would you like in LIFE? Well, as Luke said about, work hard and planned hard then you will be making big bucks $$$$$.. I don’t believe that AMWAY is SCAM people can say that, scam also comes to your email every time, life is full of scam, and even man can scam women just to win their heart. What do you think about that? What I am saying is that it is entirely up to us to decide whether we wanted to be trick or not. It’s about YOUT, ME, OR EVERYONE.
As long as I am happy of what I am doing, that’s all it matters to me.
Keep smiling…
Bugs Bunny on November 18th, 2009
I know people advocate volume and product flow, but the prices are so high that most people will not buy Amway stuff. Amway’s own numbers reveal this. Some IBO’s might be legit and selling stuff, but most are just buying from themselves amd trying to sponsor other suckers who believe the same lies told by upline.
thechaser on November 18th, 2009
Bugs Bunny:
Have you used the products and done a concentration comparison or are you just making an assumption based on what you were told.
I can guarantee you that the SA8 3Kg will last long then about 5 boxes of OMO 2x small and mighty. So I will let you work out the math. All you need to do is check the box and you work it out.
Most people are ignorant to the product but most who tried it will actually buy them, provided that you give them the right information.
Corey on November 22nd, 2009
To all involved in this blog,
I have read your posts both possitve and negative. I am personally involved with the Amway opportunity and have built a healthy sized organization.
What i can say from my personal involvement is that i have grown and developed as a person of integrity and positivity as a result of the books, the assosiation, the seminars and the CD’s. All of which have helped in all areas of my life, not just in the building of an Amway business.
The business is not something that everyone can be succesful in, mainly because not everyone is willing to change or accept the fact there is a lot of work involved (just like anything worth doing). If it was easy to do, everyone would be in already and nobody would be on this blog saying that it doesnt work, or that it is a scam.
The fact is that there are good and bad people in every business and organization in the world, this includes Amway. It is also a fact that there are ambitious people and lazy people in this world.
If you are lazy, negative or a neysayer…the business wont work for you (as some people have demonstrated in this blog)
But if you are ambitious and willing to learn and change Amway is a fantastic opportunity to create success in all areas of you life as it has for me.
Michael on November 23rd, 2009
i would love to hear from someone who is emerald or above, thechaser or AD are you guys at this level? if not why not? as i said earlier i was in “the business” many years ago and yeh, i didn’t work it “hard” enough to establish 10-wide, 10-deep etc. i found the products were okay, but expensive; when i was in business emma page had just been added, and the energy drinks (xs or whatever).
we had “the dream” of becoming rich and retiring young, but unfortunately working a full-time job and having a family didn’t leave a lot of time for the business. maybe i am making excuses but come on, where are the emeralds and diamonds? would love to hear from some of them
thechaser on November 23rd, 2009
michael;
AD and I are platinums and above.. i know it may not quite qualify for answering you request as a emerald and diamond but we are qualifying for free trips as well and making some decent extra money.. eg. a $15K bonus last year wasn’t bad.
the emma page range and the xs range has certain added new elements to the business.
I work a full time job and have a young family, but I do build the business around what I have and work at it smartly.
Our founder saphires growth bonus check in his overseas buisness was just over $80K for the fiscal year so I can assure you that there is money in it at a ‘lower’ level.
Not everyone wants to be emerald and above. Cashflow is more what i am looking at.
I have worked out with the right structure a platinum can earn up to $6000 pm reliably, so that is not a bad part time income.
Hope that answers some questions.
Joecool on November 24th, 2009
Corey, many Amway IBOs are hardworking and ambitious. But those qualities do not equate to success in Amway. The experience of most hardworking IBOs is to spend a lot of time and money to end up with a $10 check at the end of the month. Your business plan, whether it be 6-4-3, or 9-4-2 confirms this. Although certainly some people make money in Amway, that is the exception and not the rule.
Sarah H on November 24th, 2009
The Chaser
My partner and I have called around 50 times and that is no joke. We have filled out what they have asked us to fill out, sent letters etc yet we still don’t have our money back. No one appears to know what they are doing or are trying to stuff us around that much that we give up. I would like to hear if anyone has had any success in getting their money back.
ANNOY on November 25th, 2009
All you said is crap! Everything above is not true. tHIS guy is a nooob. Money doesnt work out like he said. I;ve seen this business and it is amazing! EVerything is true. the dream life u want! it is not a pyramid scheme, because u can earn far more than what ur upline earn.
Revin Lots on November 26th, 2009
Hi,the bottom line is, money is only made by the selling of a product.If it is not YOU selling it then it is relying on some one else to sell it for you.IT IS ALL A NUMBERS GAME..The plan sounds & is very good …THEORETICALLY. But if the people you have selling for you do not make enough sales through the people they have selling for them etc etc then it is a very small income indeed ..for all the effort you put in to recruiting others.If the actual AMWAY produtcs are that fantastic value how come nobody has just opened up a shop and made a fortune selling them…WHY ???? its because AMAY is just a dream..an idea..a PLAN that you get sucked into believing will make you rich.I have seen first hand two brothers[who were good friends & lodgers in my house] spend hours of meetings & sales talks only to get nowhere because the actual products did not sell as expected.I have been to varrious buisness opportunity’s being offered over the years all sounding very good ,then only to find its another AMAY being sold under a different guise.In every one of this cases its was THE PLAN..not the product that was being sold to me as a great way to make a secure financial future..its all a load of twaddle.if you have an ounce of decency in you,steer clear because you will only make money by selling a dream to others & convincing them to sell the same dream etc etc.
“nothing came easy,nothing came free,nothing came at all, untill they came after me”..Killer..ALICE COOPER
thechaser on November 26th, 2009
Revin Lots:
Funny, i guess you are dismissing the fact that we have girls in our group that is making over $25K part time running about 1 – 2 parties a week which equates to about 5-6 hours work part time.
The bottom line is if you don’t do anything no one else will. Spending time at meetings wont make you rich but moving products and building a team can because you will be leveraging off people. No different then running a team of door knockers of 40 which i use to do. My biggest check was about 15k for the month and All I did was helping them reach their targets… so was that a scam because I didn’t SELL anything???
The Plan IS solid and very good if you put it together.
But hey, you have your story I have mine. If you can prove me wrong then please do.
Joecool on December 2nd, 2009
It’s good if you cansell goods to make a side income. However, many of the major groups such as WWDB and BWW teach questionable practices that take advantage of IBOs. Some of these practices include an undying loyalty to buying tools, regardless of an IBO’s financial situation. These groups are still running today and IBOs are still getting hosed. While it’s not all groups and IBOs, it’s enough where it needs to be stopped and people need to know what’s going on so they can avoid joining a group that’s out to empty their wallets instead of helping them to sell some Amway products.
Amway the corporation could also do more to curb abuses but it seems like they do little or nothing of substance.
thechaser on December 2nd, 2009
Joecool:
I am at least glad that you believe there are groups that people can join. I do not disagree that some groups have malpractice.
The most unfortunate thing is that I could have that within my group even though I have not taught a certain way. What do you suggest a company is to do when this kind of business is reliant so much on leadership and the integrity of the leaders and they are not to be reporting to the boss every single day?
Our group has a very strong Emma Page jewellery buiness so the product is SELLABLE… and I just sold 3 esprings that last two days so thats an extra $800 pocket money to spend on Christmas. And it was as short as a 5 min conversations so I am not sure what people are whinging about not able to make money????
Joecool on December 3rd, 2009
With the number of products Amway sells, it is possible to find some that can be sold. I agree.
But the flaw in the business is that the compensation is unfair. Amway pays about 32% of the purchase back in bonuses. A new IBO who might sell or use 100 PV, all on his own gets 3% and all the upline (extra middlemen) split up 29% in bonuses. That’s one big flaw.
Secondly, many “major” groups strongly encourage downline to buy the tools, which almost guarantees that an IBO will end up with a net loss.
Dateline did a good job of exposing some of the bad practices. How hard would it be for Amway the corporation have a few insiders to infiltrate some meetings and weed out greedy and abusive leaders? Rich DeVos acknoledged this in 1983 and nothing of significance has happened.
Because there are probably more “malpractice” groups than not, I stand convicted that Amway is not a good opportunity for the vast majority of people who are prospected.
Ange on December 3rd, 2009
I agree with Joecool. I am an “Amway” person, and personally know several people who are making genuine money in this business, and are training me how to do the same.
Furthermore, there are not any rules or regulations that require IBOs to buy training materials, books, cds etc nor is there a minimum amount of $ purchase each month. It is entirely up to the individual how many $ they spend and pv they do personally each month. But simply by switching to amway products where you can, you are simply spending money you would have spent anyway on similar items – in exploitative corporate giants Coles and Woolworths.
Furthermore, the people who are my upline are awesome motivational people and excellent trainers and i have never felt under any pressure to do anything i don’t want to do. I take MY Amway business at my own pace, and nobody has a problem with that and whenever i have a question, it is answered.
Ange on December 4th, 2009
Like what the Chaser said.
Anyway just a few comments…
In every industry there are people who give everyone else in their industry a bad name. This is true of the Amway corp aswell as any other. I’ll not deny there probably are a bunch of scammers out there. But i guess i am fortunate to be in a great team and enjoy being with those in my group. We are all just positive people who are training together and building a business using a fantastic vehicle.
Second, you don’t have to flog a product/s, go door to door, etc.(unless you want to!!) Yes, Amway people sell the dream, and selling the dream PAYS for those who WORK HARD at it and learn to do it well. It is not a scam. No ‘scam’ requires hard work to succeed; so who cares if you are selling a dream, if the dreams come true? (As they have for many people who put in the time and effort).
My focus is not on buying ‘everything Amway’ and trying to get everyone else to buy ‘everything Amway’ – but on building a team that helps eachother, buys enough product to put some serious money in my bank account every month, and helping others to do the same. The products are just a vehicle, but team-building is the business.
Joecool on December 15th, 2009
“In every industry there are people who give everyone else in their industry a bad name.”
I agree but nowhere is it more prevalent than in the Amway business.
thechaser on December 15th, 2009
Joecool:
I disagree.. its only more prevalent because people wants to talk about it.
The ACCC which is an organisation that deals with all the complaints that is happening in the traditional world with all the fraudulant activities that happen in all the TRADITIONAL (supposingly ethical businesses).
They deal with new cases EVERY single day so I am sure there are plenty of bad eggs out there that NO one hears about simply because most people just accept it.
Just to name a few, Storm Financial, FinnCorp, HIH… the list goes on. Its never ending. All these organisations promises financial security but took millions of dollars from people.
The problem will always exist for those looking for it
Joanna on December 15th, 2009
thechaser,
The fact that this discussion is still going proves how Controversial your buisness is.
There are many many more people who have lost money, been lied to or made a single cent, than who have ever made a single dollar from AMWAY.
If it was such thae opportunity that IBO’s tell everyone this discussion would not be active, results are a lot more tangible than selling dreams.
Years have passed since I was involed with people from AMWAY. No one yet has succeeded, yet they tried to convice me that I could.
It’s the side buisness that people make money from. Tapes, functions and books. From which the only a few make money from.
Joecool on December 16th, 2009
I don’t have numbers to back up this claim, but I suspect that over the many years, the Amway Motivational systems, while implying assurances of walk away passive income, has taken billions of dollars from IBOs.
I also believe that these organizations do not get complained about because many IBOs and former IBOs are sponsored by family and friends. Many just walk away and forget their experience, chaulking it up as a life experience.
Brooke on December 16th, 2009
actually, you don’t manipulate people to get into the business, you simply ask them if they would rather have active income or reaccuring income. Active in come, meaning a job which means as soon as you stop working no more money. It also means you work too much and have money but no time.
Being an IBO is a lifestyle choice, it gives you the freedom and lifestyle but it is hard work.
And also, Amway started off as a vitimin company and went to third world contries and donated them. That’s how it began.
A job i s pyramid shceme.
Your boss is higher than your manager,
your manager is higher than your superviser
your superviser is higher than you
this, making it a pyramid and something all of you are involved with
and you don’t understand it, obviously.
THe people that approach you, to start with they are probably still working, just like you.
they ARE just like you and you are each entitlted in making as much money as you want.
There is no boss, it’s up to you and the person who sponsers you gets a ‘bonus’ but you still get more money. It’s not up to somebody else about how much money you make, it;s only about you and the people you sponser help you fulfill your dreams and then they, fulfill theres.
I’m just saying, I am sixteen years old and yes I’ve been raised on this busniess.
I have a house in paris, an apartment in New york and a house in Australia because my dad worked hard as an IBO for seven years and all the people he’s sponsered and made a team out of are all wealthy as well and have gone on to make their own teams.
I’m not trying to convince you, I’m just saying that frankly, you’re all idiots. I’ve seen it work because my dad and I are living proof.
But hey, we all need someone to make our coffee’s.
thechaser on December 16th, 2009
joanna,
i guess the $1000 that I made this week is not tangible at all then???
My effort my results… my guess is that its been years since any of these people you know have done any work.
Attending functions, workshops, listening to Cds DONT make you money.
You are paid one thing, product movement, and you are only going to be paid more when you leverage. Period.
next time you go to a clothing store, why don’t you try asking for a 500% discount as thats what they have it on.. now that is a scam..
The fact that this conversation continues is because there will ALWAYs be two sides of the story.
Joecool on December 17th, 2009
TheChaser,
Nobody that I know of claims that people don’t make any money in Amway. However, when you say “leverage”, that means basically, that upline is making money at their downline’s expense. UNLESS, you and your downline are a rare group that primarily sells products. Self consumption groups lose money and compounds the problem if they are buying tools.
thechaser on December 17th, 2009
our group, sell and self consume.
In my experience, those who self consume only do about 30pv to 50pv and 50% of them don’t go to function. Well that in my group. So i don’t see how buying XS or nutriway or LOC because they like to can equate to LOSING money??
Those who goes are taught to fund their BUSINESS expense by selling some products. The Active IBO in my group does an average of 200pv to 300pv with either XS or EMMA Page and some espring. Its not hard to fund your business when you sell one or two esprings or 3 or 4 emma page parties.
when i say leverage i mean build a team of either 5 or 10 people that would like to either focus on emma page, XS or any of the product range and run is as a business. We run booth event and retail.
I personally have done over 500pv of personal business plus retail profit.
Maybe we are rare but it does not mean the business is a scam. We make the business for what it is and meant for. EXTRA money via extra work at a flexible time.
Some of our crossline cousins make over 80K per year doing average of 3 parties a week and only has 4 to 5 in her team. Thats not even a 15% pin but she is very profitable.
Joecool on December 17th, 2009
TheChaser, here is the $64,000 question.
If your group is doing it right, but your group is rare, and many other groups are teaching questionable to illegal techniques, should the FTC re-open their investigation on whether Amway is operating legally?
Or should Amway internally check on groups and remove uplines who violate their rules?
Why should Amway be allowed to turn a blind eye to abuses? If Amway says that IBOs only sell 3.4% of goods to actual non IBO customers, it’s easy to conclude that many, possibly most IBOs do not make any sales. I have not heard about any IBOs having a bonus withheld for not following the retail sales rules.
Joanna on December 18th, 2009
the chaser,
One fact. From the group that I was involed in, “if do not buy 100pv for yourself, ( I think that worked out to be about AUD 400.00) which the IBO might earn about AUD 12.00.
That’s like charging someone to enter a supermarket for the privlidge of shopping there, and then over charging them, saying that even though you did not buy anything we will keep your entrance fee.
Why don’t you talk about money earned after expenses instead of “PV”. If someone was not involved in AMWAY how would they know what you were talking about?, or are you trying to be deceptive and hoping that people think that it is dollars and that you kept every cent?
steve on December 18th, 2009
Hi,
I AM NOT IN AMWAY and never have been but I am in a network marketing business (not a pyramid scheme or scam), and have tried a few. Network marketing businesses such as Amway are legitamate businesses that gives anyone the opportunity to build a successful business. The problem is that a lot of people try to recruit by making false promises of fortune and lifestyle perks when they should be more concerned with showing people the business opportunity. Network marketing is like any business in that you have to WORK at it because the more you put in the more you get out. the average person probably wont make much money in the first 2 years while they build their business but if they persist and not give up they, more than likely, will succeed. different network marketing businesses have different products and different marketing plans, people just that want a business have to choose the right one for them which means probably trialling a few. In my opinion the network marketing system of business is the best in the world (even though I have not made it big yet), its a business everyone can afford to do no matter what your financial state, you can do it at your own pace(even while you have a full time job), it’s a risk free business and the best thing is that for you to be successful you have to help other people become successful.
Joanna on December 18th, 2009
Brooke,
How much money did your mum and dad make from CD’s Books and funtions?
thechaser on December 18th, 2009
Joanna:
Is the IBO spending money on products that he may be spending elsewhere with that $400???
Eg, I have young guys who WAS drinking 2 to 3 cans of Red bull or V prior to the business. They switched because they LIKED the product and they JOINED because they saw the potential of the business. I didn’t make him or Bribe him.
Now he is spending same amount of money as he was yet he is receiving a small check for it. So I don’t see your point. If you are an IBO that is buying products that you dont use because your UPLINE told you so then you must be either stupid or naive. Sorry, I run a business and i have reps coming to sell me products all the time and I don’t buy too much and blame the rep for me over spending… seriously, take some responsibilities.
Ok, you want me to talk money, we make $800 as an average in every EP party and best party is over $1200 and now you put in 35% margin and also a 9% bonus rebate you have your profit. (allow 2hrs of WORK time)
Now you work out what you make based on 5 – 6 parties a month. There is your income. Then you less your meeting of $40 a month and some other TRAVELLING expenses. (BTW do you factor your travelling time as a cost to your work??? i wonder) by the way one of the girls does is full time at 5 parties a week so she works a wooping 25hrs a week including travel, booking sessions and drop off and she makes over $120K include bonues.. so how does that stack up again a 9 – 5 JOB.
Do they all do that, NO. But she did the work so she is rewarded for you; and now you have the guts to criticise her hard work.. give me a break.
As for XS, we sell over 4 cases at $65 per case working on 20% margin. and from there we pick up two or three clients who may eventually become IBOs to purchase product.
I have a young guy who was spending over $200 a week in protein bars and other supplements.. this business just makes sense for him money wise….
Joanna, How many more proven cases do you need for you to ACTUALLY listen. My guess is that too many as you are actually not willing to listen. You think that by researching the WEB you are now an expert in the business and have NEVER actually done any WORK in the business. We sell and we sponsor, We work and we are paid for it, are you telling me there is something wrong with this whole equation. Are you now going to coming back to be and telling me that I am deceptive for what ever other reasons you may have for criticizing the business.
Thus far you have not taken any of our comments to heart and is happy think every IBOs is like that 40 that you have associated with out of the 80k in australia… Why don’t you ask the owner of the coffee shop next time how much it costs to make a cup of coffee… Not much I can assure you, yet people is still happy to pay for it yet you cant buy dish drops because is a scam??? Ya OK.. thats totally logical
Joecool on December 19th, 2009
TheChaser,
I like the way you run the business. But you are a rare exception.
There are functions with tens of thousands in attendance learning to “but from yourself” and to spend every last dollar on standing orders and seminar tickets. This is the more common experience of IBOs.
Do you think these groups should be allowed to wreck the opportunity for you?
thechaser on December 19th, 2009
Joecool:
Sorry for the late reply, I believe that the Corp needs to do a internal audit and that will dispel all of the myth that has been expelled out on the market place.
I believe that the functions are important as well as CDs, our team GIVE out mp3 left right and centre untill some of the IBOs take up the rein and purchase on their own accord.
We only have about 20% of our group on standing order. Thats not much at all.
I still believe that each IBO should take some responsibility with their finances. This is a business, treat it like one.
I don’t mind critics pointing some of the issues that needs to be address, but when a critic decides to dispel all reasonable argument then I will need to continue to correct them and inform them of what many groups are starting to do.
Joanna on December 19th, 2009
the chaser,
Wow,
No I never citicised anyone in my recent entry.
How do you know how many people I was involved with, do they have a reputation for running a shoddy buisness?, if so it does reflect on the entire ogranisation.
120K is that after taxes and expenses? is that one person out of 80,000?. Yes I do factor traveling, a pair of shoes a year. About one hundred dollars.
Anyone who drinks 2 to 3 cans of anything besides water a day, really shouldn’t. You should get them to buy a water purification system, after you tell them about how bad tap water is for them. And did you tell them out right that you would like them to join AMWAY?
I think anyone who spends over 200 dollars a week in supplements will believe anything, I have used bridge across the harbour for sale.
Seriously though, why do you avoid writing about the CD’s, books and functions?
Why does there need to be one company to supply a product and another to sell the CD’s books and tickets to functions? And the head of that side buisness is a AMWAY Diamond or some other stone.
If you were in charge of the side buisness, would’nt it make sense to sell a much of it as you could?
No I don’t ask the coffee shop owner how much it costs to make a cup of coffee. I know how much it costs and use my own free will to decide if I want to pay that or not, and I don’t get told that if I drink only their coffee I will become rich.
Joecool on December 19th, 2009
I believe the tools were created with a genuine desire to train IBOs, especially distance groups. But greed set in and IBO abuse began. Amway knew this but did not act. I believe it is too late and government intervention might be the only way the abuse will end.
Amway and the greedy AMOs now have a symbiotic relationship. Amway profits from IBOs but turns a blind eye to the AMO abuse.
In turn, the AMOs (Amway Motivational Organizations such as WWDB) recruits IBOs, teaches them product loyalty, teaches them to do 100 PV or more and sells the iBOs useless tapes/cds, seminars, voicemail and other accessories.
Without Amway, the AMOs have nobody to sell their motivation to. Without the AMOs, Amway has nobody to recruit new IBOs and to push movement of PV. At this point they need each other, IMO.
There are some groups who run Amway properly. If TheChaser is accurate in reporting his group activity, then his group is fine. But too many groups do not run ethically and that’s why critics and anti Amway forums exist.
thechaser on December 19th, 2009
Joanna:
I know that group you have been with so I know what their numbers are like.
They don’t have a reputation, the BYO model has being around for years. I was part of that organisation but I have the business sense to understand that business is built on product movement.
JoeCool is right, the intention of the CDs were for a reason but the greed got in the way. You need to do some proper research to understand why the training organisation exist.
They dont need to be there but at same time they do as not all IBOs are created equal. Just like anyone going to school that may need extra tutoring. We teach loyalty to products only on those they find value. And this is not the first time we mentioned this.
seriously, save your sarcasm. Anyone who eats macdonalds really shouldn’t, anyone who gives their kids coke and sugered up juices really shouldn’t. There are plenty of should not’s in life but you don’t see the advertising company captalizing on consumer desires. Anyone who is in debt should not buy more presents at Christmas.
Till this day you still haven’t got a clue what the business is actually about, and have never done anything. You may be earning 6 figures in you job but is that after tax and travelling expenses. if so I know you are in the top 1% income earners in Australia, so have you done ANYTHING to help the other 99% finding a way of making some extra few dollars buy teaching how to perhaps sell a purifier, or a couple of emma page party or join an event selling XS or anything for that matter.
You harp on about the tools as you think you are an expert yet don’t know anything about running a business nor the origin of the tools business. I don’t avoid it because i have already mentioned my stand point on the matter.
Just like every IBO that get started in the business they are informed of the product range and the cds and functions. They make a intelligent decision based on what they see, people buy because they see value not because we make them.
By your comment about the guy taking supplements you are basically calling him stupid and that is totally not called for. You don’t know what he takes or why he takes it.
You need to actually do some research into the Network Marketing industry, its actually a profession as well as a course that is taught in Universities.
Joecool on December 22nd, 2009
The problem with tools is that uplines are in a conflict of interest when they sell them. They will say it is the key to an IBO’s success. But as far as I know, there is no unbiased evidence to suggest that this is true. In fact, most IBOs who lose money, do so because they bought tools!
Secondly, where are all the new diamonds if the tools work? I would bet money that the cost of tools exceeds the amound of income generated by the IBOs who use tools.
There’s nothing wrong with an IBO trying to learn more about business and dealing with people, etc. But the tools contain very little information about actually running an Amway business. Many tools focus on recruiting and sponsoring, and not on how to sell products. Without a customer base, a diamond’s income is coming out of the pockets of downline IBOs and that’s why Amway has been a questionable business all of these years.
True Aussie on December 23rd, 2009
I don’t buy overseas manufactured products or products from companies that are owned by foreign corporations. All this MLM stuff is about sending Aussie dollars overseas. If all Australians bought their product from these MLMs then we would be all salesmen and no one would be making anything here…we’d be just like those who caused the Global Financial Crisis. Do you really want to live in a country full of people like that?
John W. MacDonald on December 23rd, 2009
Why give your hard won money to Amway or Network TwentyOne or Quixtar or Pyxis Innovations or Access Business Group or Fulton Innovation or Alticor when you get much better rewards from my business?
I have a much better IBO business model that gives much greater rewards to our IBOs than Amyway does which is why we have a much greater growth model than Amway does. We are rapidly gaining on Amway and anticipate beating this rival by March 2010.
As the Amway IBOs have said, Amway is over 50 years old. That’s Korean War age. Being 50 years old means that there is a lot of old sludge there which is why we see so many here and on other forums defending it.
Yes, it’s due to “other people” and I am sure that you are all upset by the criticisms but then again it’s your fault for joining an organisation with so much baggage behind it.
You should have been smarter, by joining a young organisation like ours with much stronger growth prospects.
The good news is that it’s not too late. With less market saturation than Amway, now is the time to seize the opportunity and do your research. You will find that our organisation does not have the kind of mud slung at it that Amway and its associates does. That’s because we have a much better way of doing MLM.
So next time when you get a derogatory remark thrown your way about a network marketing organisation, just remember do your research. Check out the facts. Join a winner!
Mystery on January 5th, 2010
Wow it’s funny to read some of these entries. I had a friend who inroduced me to this “amazing business opportunity” but he wouldn’t tell me what it was about when I asked; so I went out of currosity. I went to a meeting and the guy went on for a couple hours talking of how much money we could make and spent maybe ten minutes talking about how. I am 21 and my friend 22 and all the people they seek are young ambitious people with a strong drive to create their own business and be independent in making money. Sad that some people can be suckered in without actually understanding how much work and advertising they would have to do to make a few hundred bucks a month, while the guys above them make the real money. Yet, you have to go to so many meetings and spend so much time for training. . It seemed fake and very suspicious to me. The guy especially wanted me because I had spent two years of dedicated service to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, paid out of my pocket, sharing what meant most to me to all where I was sent. He kept on saying if I would dedicate myself to the company as I had to my missionary service that I would be filthy rich and that I could help people with my money. It was obvious to me how this works. I feel bad for those who will waste many hours and a lot of money trying to make their millions. And for the very few who get lucky and make it, good for them, but we all know that having a ton of money will never make you happy.
So if you can convince everyone you know to buy things online and try to get them to sell if off too, then it could be possible to make some money. But to make the 2 million a year they say you can make in 5 years, wow! I havent even tried to calculate how many people you have to convince to join and how much money would have to be spent a month in order to bring in that profit. I think I will go to school and get a job and have the secruity without worrying about tring to convince people to spend their money on online products to secure living expenses for myself. If Amway has a couple good products I like maybe I will buy a few bucks a month and that will maybe, over a period of time, cover the cost of what my friend has put in; but will never replace the time he has spent trying to make an easy buck.
My opinion and feelings
thechaser on January 5th, 2010
Mystery:
my traditional business costed me over $350k just open the shop and also over $280k in just staff cost of the one year. That not including lease nor other over head or advertising.
With your expert opinion can you tell me when it will be the time for my business to be making a profit based on about a $500k turn over a year.
Not everyone get into this business to make their millions, secondly the fact you don’t understand that a solid platniumship is like having over $1mil in the bank account saved up.
To make $250k a year out of the business is about 1000 people properly structured over about 12 to 15 legs with 6 platinum legs. I know because you can work is out with a calculator. The total turn over is about $300k a month.
The fact that you think getting a job is secure means that you have not being on the receiving end of a redundancy and I hope you will never have to go through one. In the last GFC I have to let go of 4 staff and 2 of them have not being able to find the same kind of work till this day. They are WORKING but not in their chosen field.
I also have someone who was a GM of a company have not being able to find work for over 4 months, so would you like to explain why you think there is so much security.
From the business perspective, the only security in your income is the one that you personally generate and have gone into your bank account and not based on a waiting for someone to pay you after they have paid all their expenses and hoping for some left over.
Thats my opinion.
Joecool on January 6th, 2010
But in a traditional business, if you ask questions, they will be answered and financial statements are a normal part of acquiring a business. In Amway there are a lot of unanswered questions and secrecy about the business.
Also, in a traditional business, you may spend more, but your chance of making money is much much better than in Amway.
thechaser on January 6th, 2010
Joecool:
I would disagree with your second comment and agree with the first to a certain degree. Its will depend on who you speak to and what you ask.
The money is there in the plan as you a want it. You can work out what you can make out of the business based on the model.
As for spend more and more chance, I would argue that there are 66% of people that lost money in attempting to start a business would be actually meant that 2 in 3 business that start every year actually lose money and the remaining 33% another 50% will fail in the next 3 years. These are stats presented by the ABS.
here are some US stats.. http://www.score.org/small_biz_stats.html
The point is, this business is what you make of it. If you do some work then you can make money. if all you want is to work for someone thats fine, but don’t criticise a business when you a person have never OWNED a business and is trying to tell me that this does not work.
I have to put a tax form for my Amway business, does that not make it legit??? So where is the secrecy.
Sugarbear on January 7th, 2010
Basically the Amway business is like any other business but without bricks and mortar. It is done by word of mouth and by phone and/or internet ordering. Don’t get too hung up on the meetings, seminars, conventions etc. All large companies do that.
The facts are as follows:
1) Amway is successful and has been around for 50 years
2) No-one gets “stuck” with anything from Amway or Network 21 that they don’t want as there is a 90 day money back guarantee on EVERYTHING. If you know anyone who has been “stuck” with an Amway product they didn’t like or want, it means they were too lazy to take it or send it back. (Postage is also refunded by Amway)
3) Bonuses are paid purely on performance. You do nothing, you get nothing, but you will be paid for every second you put into your business.
4) All expenses (Petrol, car maintenance, training CD’s, Seminar Tickets, Meetings, Weekend accommodation at functions, demonstration products etc. etc.) are ALL tax deductable like any conventional business.
5) Because Amway doesn’t run from an office, Seminars are organised to show new people that the business works by getting the business people together in one location and having business owners tell of their experiences.
6) You buy Amway products at wholesale which saves money. This attracts new people to the benefits of the business rather than buying an equivalent product in the supermarket at retail.
7) You can’t blame anyone for you lack of success. There’s a saying, “if it is to be it’s up to me” Everyone can succeed at any business if they just listen to a business mentor and follow their advice. Amway is no exception.
Learn correctly, and you can have anything you want.
9) yes, there are people in any job or business who are deceiving and irresponsible and dishonest. Amway is no exception, but as you are probably aware they don’t last long. Unfortunatley they usually have the biggest mouths and do lots of damage while they can.
10) Amway is a good company, Network 21 is a good training system to teach people how to work the business.
By giving it a go you have NOTHING to lose except a bit of time. You can get everything you spent back in 90 days if you give it a go and decide it is not for you…..but what if it works??
11) It’s the simplest business I have ever seen, not easy, but worth it.
Joecool on January 8th, 2010
The Chaser, tha “plan” doesn’t show you how much you can make. It’s a hypothetical example and does not reflect what a typical IBO can expect. In fact, most IBOs cannot even sponsor 1 downline, much lessz 6. Each time someone has tried to prospect me and I asked how they were performing comapred to the “plan”, not a single one of them would even verbally tell me how they were doing.
Sugarbear:
1. Amway is successful – You are not Amway.
2. Why are Amway products and N21 stuff sold for pennies on ebay?
3. What do I get paid for attending a seminar or showing a plan? These are two key parts of the biz.
4. All expenses are deductible if you are trying to make a profit.
5. Why can’t upline use cheapers ways of getting “valuable” information to downline?
6. Buying at wholesale makes your opportunity a shopper’s club and not a business.
7. Why does Amway have such a miserable success rate?
8. Seems upline doesn’t teach correctly since less than one half of one percent ever reach platinum.
9. But in Amway, it os the leaders who are teaching deception. Don’t you think that is a problem.
10. Time is the most important thing. You can always make back money. Your time lost with family and friends cannot be given back.
11. If it’s so simple, why doesn’t it work for most people?
team10k on February 8th, 2010
Hi Joecool,
1. Amway is successful, and is giving you the opportunity to become successful as well. Take it or leave it.
2. So you haven’t seen anything else that sells on ebay for pennies have you?
3. You are not getting paid for attending a seminar or showing a plan. Have you ever worked as a sales person before? Particularly for optus or kirby? It’s comission paid and you have to attend a meeting every day before you go out doorknocking. You don’t get paid for attending the meeting, but it helps you and gives you the motivation needed for the day. So does Amway have it’s seminars. You don’t have to go there, but it helps you to stay on track. showing the plan is basically how you build your business. If you don’t show it to people, how are you going to build it? Compare it to a terrible door knocking job, you don’t knock you don’t sell. You sell, you get comission paid, but only once. In Amway, you’re building a business that sets you up for passive income, not a one off comission.
4. I don’t understand your point here. Isn’t that an extra bonus that your business expenses are tax deductible?
5. I don’t know any cheaper ways then email and phone calls, do you?
6. You’re telling me shopping is not a business?? particularly not online shopping?
7. Most people join and do nothing. remember, it is up to you. If something’s gonna change, something’s gonna change!!
8. Ok, here is the tricky part. The upline (most upline) doesn’t pressure you. That’s why at the presentation it is emphasizing that a motivated and teachable person is needed. the upline doesn’t pressure you, but it is even too much for some people to call them and ask for instructions and next steps. It is not the upline, it is the individual.
9. why do you think it’s deception?
10. That’s exactly right. So better keep working until you’re 65, every day, full time. You can build your Amway business in the evening, when your family is asleep. You can take your family to the seminars, and the conferences, make it a weekend away.
11. It is simple, supersimple, but not easy. You have to treat it like a business, like your business, take it serious and be patient.
Joecool on February 9th, 2010
Hi Team10K,
1. Agree. Amway is successful. You aren’t Amway.
2. I don;t see brand nbew stuff selling for pennies on the dollar like Amway tools.
3. If you don’t get paid for attending seminars, why are so many IBOs tols to never miss one? Don’t you build a business by acquiring customers?
4. The point is that Amway should not be promoted as a tax write off.
5. Why KATE? Why not free email?
6. Shopping makes you a customer.
7. Tell me why most people join and “do nothing”?
8. Upline doesn’t pressure you? Tools are optional, but so is success. Nobody has ever succeeded without tools. Isn’t that pressure?
9. “Quixtar is not Amway”. We are not Amway, we are WWDB, or we are not Amway, we are team10K enterprises.
10. Your time building Amway is not only when your family is sleeping.
11. Lifting 500 pounds a thousand times is simple but not easy. Licking the sidewalk 5 hours a day is simple but not easy.
thechaser on February 9th, 2010
joecool:
you are soo behind the times… we are amway… none of my team ever denies it.
the perception that you have are seriously soo 80s and 90s.
Joecool on February 10th, 2010
Your team never denies it. That’s good, but there is ample evidence out there showing that many people still deny that they are Amway IBOs.
Amway has so much baggage that most people cannot build it without using the curiosity approach and sprinkling in some deception.
Why do so many supporters keep citing outdated information? Maybe Amway should update their 2001 average income statement about IBOs?
Matt Wilson on February 16th, 2010
I have just arrived home a few hours ago from the gym, to find 3 AMWAY reps in my lounge room outlining the opportunity to my housemate. They have been here now for 3 hours and it’s almost 10pm, they have done the name drop (Adam Gilchrist, Libby Trickett etc). I hope everyone knows they get paid to endorse AMWAY, it’s not out of the goodness of their heart. I am sure it’s big dollars too. They left the big A bomb to the end, and now my housemate has been trying to say no for like 20 mins, she is on Austudy and can’t afford the $200+ to sign up anyway. I just looked at coles online versus amway site, and they charge heaps more for products like coffee etc (same brand like Nescafe), it you swapped your shopping to Amway, you would be spending more on groceries not less, and the figures they are telling her are so unrealistic. I hope she is not silly enough to sign up, they are putting on the high pressure tactics. Update they have gone and she was smart enough not to sign up! I bet they will be bugging her now for weeks if not months to attend another presentation or to sign up etc! once they have your number they don’t let go!.
Broady on February 17th, 2010
I am the type of person to keep an open mind on everything, and will educate myself before making an opinion. I worked for Avon in 2008, and it was a great opportunity but I had to give it up due to some unhappy things happening in my personal life. My best friend ctold me a while ago about meeting someone from Icommerce, and that after paying a fee – he could start his own business. Based on my lack of knowledge about the company he was involved in, I reserved any judgement and said that I would help him out as much as I could.
On Monday 15th Feb, I received a phone call from Annil, the man who is mentoring my friend. He asked if I was interested in a business opportunity and learning more about what my friend does. I agreed, as I am 6 months pregnant and bored silly. The following evening we met at the local Mc Donalds for what was supposed to be a 15 minutes meeting. 30 minutes later, after drawing lines and writing all over a brochure, he promptly picked up the brochure and left. Annil gave me a huge speech about the dream he and Icommerce could offer.
3 months away from giving birth, all this sounded great. But I went home feeling uneasy, and came across this site, and many others like it.
I have decided that his is not the plan for me, and will cancel the seminar Annil wanted me to attend. I am concerned for my best friend, who has giving his fee to Annil and signed up, but its been months and there is still no progress to him making his money, or even looking at the product he is supposed to sell.
I read ALOT of the comments from the top of the page, and found that the personal attacks were not informative in any way. I would really appreciate the pros and cons of going down this path. I can be contacted via email – broadyanne888@hotmail.com
Thanks
thechaser on February 17th, 2010
I wish people can stop trying convince people INTO the biz when they don’t want to…
And STOP talking about cheaper shopping… rubbish… shopping gets cheaper when you hit 15% and above as I receive a 21% discount for everything I buy so yeah its cheaper for me..
3 hour one on one is soo OLD school and tiring.. i wish people can stop doing that and give us a bad name… WE DONT ALL DO THAT…
Joecool on February 18th, 2010
Thechaser,
The fact is that there are still many IBOs who persist even when told “no”.
Shopping is cheaper when you are at 15%? How many IBOs reach 15%? A fraction of 1%?
thechaser on February 18th, 2010
Joecool:
It will depend on how people structure and build their biz.
I run one like a biz and run 9% myself every month and teach likewise. Most will do 6% consistantly in their personal.. so you can do the math in how many people is required to be at 15%… not many.
If people can start to understand that the Amway biz is still a buy and sell business people will be a lot better off.
Secondly, we dont teach IBOs to buy from the CATALOUGE section because it cheaper. I tell that you can get some of the things cheaper else where. Its there for convienence.
We promote the core product because there is more value in them both in price and rebate. They choose what they see as good value. Not hard to to 100pv personal in a family and singles especially there is over 700 exclusives in the Aussie Market and more in the US. 100% will come as they start to grow their business.
We teach people to retail to fund their functions and books and cds.. so its quite hard to make a LOSS in this format.
Just because other people is doing the wrong this does not make the AMWAY business wrong.
Its like saying that the insurance buisness is a scam when there just a handful of people that do the wrong thing.
Joecool on February 18th, 2010
The Chaser,
I think you are probably a rare person who is running Amway the way it was intended. That being said, how does an IBO fund the ongoing cost of standing orders, functions, voicemail? You would have to be making several hundred dollars a month to break even. Most IBOs earn less than $50 a month.
If bad IBO behavior was the exception, I would agree with you, but when big groups like WWDB or N21 teach “buy from yourself”, or fake it till you make it, or to emphasize dedication to the system, then bad business advice is more of the norm than the exception.
The evidence is all over the internet.
thechaser on February 19th, 2010
I don’t think the buy from yourself model can work in North America as ther is now the retail rule being enforced.
As for function… you will find those who are not buidling the biz are not coming to functions or CDs… if they are I make sure they cover their costs.
Our cost may be a bit different to the US, our Cds are about $40 per month, $5 for opens x 4, BDS $10 to $20 x 8 a year. plus 3x Majors at $40 per month installments. Its cheaper then Gym memberships (in aus that is, its about $90 to $110 a month)
That can easily be covered in just one jewellery party or an XS event or even just selling a couple of Double X..
i stil need to make sure they understand that it is a business so there are cost, but those costs needs to be offset with income just like any other biz.
I found that if they are serious they will ask for mentorship and ask for help.
The teams that I am associated with have not taught BYO model for a long time… its all about a balanced business now. We recognise that the BYO did happen in the pass and have stuffed up our business majorly however we make the choice of building it properly and continue to do so with integrity, teaching people business ownership mentality and not just some motivational mumbo jumbo…
Broady on February 21st, 2010
I just received a text message from that guy I met earlier this week, he said “Confirming wealth creation workshop for tomorrow”. I know there are genuine IBO’s out there, but this man still refuses to be honest about exactly what it is he does, and what he wants me to get involved in. I told him that after consideration and research that I am not interested in the workshop or any further “business opportunities”. I said I would appreciate it if he removed my number from his contacts.
Broady on February 21st, 2010
I sent that text 2 hours ago, and since then the man has started tightening his hold on my friend. My friend already signed up and paid some ridiculous about of money, but he is starting to see that it is going no where. Any suggestions? I told my friend that I thought the guy was too pushy, and that I believed he was better off leaving.
thechaser on February 21st, 2010
Broady, your friend should speak the corporation and also find out who the upline is and let them know whats going on.
I have a feeling I know what group there are in.
As for leaving, I would advice not to; I would advice to seek upline for concelling and if that does not work change lines of sponsorship and find a leader that would teach the proper philosophy of QI.
You need to understand that when a message is taught; though the intentions may be good but the interpretation and the excution can be far from the truth. Thats not a reflection on the actual business but a reflection of the IBOs.
As for tightening on your friend, what do you by that. And the sign up should only be about $99 – $160 and they have products that is worth over $80 in the sign up and they can also order some additional products if they want. It should not be too ridiculous.
As for the person, after a no should be a no. I have NEVER NEVER contacted a person back after they have mentioned that they are not looking. Its purly out of respect.
The Amway business is about taking ownership of your life and is about building Wealth in many ways. You will need to meet the team to understand that. I would suggest to seek out a Craig Deane’s workshop in Auckland and you will find that he teaches very differently.
Joecool on February 23rd, 2010
That’s how Amway escapes being accountable. Big AMOs probably teach this deceptive curiosity approach and then they escape accountability by saying it is just rogue IBO behavior. While in some cases this may be true, but in many cases, I suspect that deceptive practices are taught at functions where tens of thousands of IBOs are in attendance.
thechaser on February 23rd, 2010
Joecool:
perhaps I am lucky that I am in an organisation that does t teach to avoid the amway question but to be ‘proud’ of the association. No one from stage has ever said not tell them it’s amwaybif asked.
And certainly within the Ida qi system yelling people that your company is icommerce is certaily not taught from stage or CDs. This person has taken the icommerce brochure and assumed that that’s what he was suppose to say. He has obviouslybnot listened tongue teaching very well. Our workshop is audited by amway randomly to make sure we don’t make outrages claims.
Out plan also has to be approved by amway before showing the plan. The brochure use is also accredited by amway. So they know what’s happening.
There is also an official at every amway function that is present so why is preached from stage is not misleading.
What amway can’t control is what happended to the individual that listen to the message and apply it differently.
Pehaps there are othe AMOs that is still doing that kind of teaching on stage but i realt do doubt it with the accreditaton and the auditing of all the CDs produced. Many Amos has to throw out a lot of their CDs because of what has happened in the past.
Do you still have any association with recent functions or CDs. Most CDs that’s i have had over the last twelve month talks about being proud of the assiation and if an individual want to read the materials on the net and treat it as gospel and not willing to listen to youband digging further then it’s a waste of time trying to sell them the business.
Build it with integrity and you will have a long lasting business.
marie on February 23rd, 2010
I’m glad that I found this blog. I went to a business seminar last night and heard many successful stories – even a girl who had retired permanently by the age of 20!
However, even as I sat there listening to their success stories- and there was quite a few- I couldn’t help but to think: pyramid scheme.
Sure it’s legal and has the possibility of earning us newbies some money but it can hurt the people it is being sold to.
Anyone who has seen “the ring” might be able to comprehend that this scheme won’t “hurt” you if you recruit someone else but may “hurt” them if they fail to do so themselves.
Anyway, they talked about hassel free passive income continuously and quote some very healthy figures but this is a fundamentally incorrect term. You DO have to work for this money which was a giant elephant my hosts skirted around the entire night.
I almost signed up on the night but fortunately had wiped out my bank account by my latest investment. I was talked into going to the Amwaystore where I could buy stuff at wholesale prices. What I found was that it was poor quality, a small range and far from the CBD.
After arriving back home I decided that my latest investment, a bike, was more likely to save me money and there was no way that I would ever be ethically fine with bing involved in a pyramid scheme no matter what form it takes.
Thanks Luke for the heads up.
thechaser on February 23rd, 2010
Sorry for the typo, it’s from an iPhone
DC on February 23rd, 2010
The Amway corporation does not sit well with me because of the fact that they conduct themselves. Basic information is not given to you, pure numbers, how the system works… I attended a meeting in the Monetary Authority of Singapore building. They have enough legitimate connections to utilize a government building. This is in order to facilitate some level of trust between the newbie and the corporation. However, when you ask for certain details, they deny it to you and tell you to attend their meetings. That, my friends, is pure bull. Remember, HE WHO DENYS YOU INFORMATION, IN HIS HEART DESIRES TO ULTIMATELY BE YOUR MASTER. Free yourself from self-imposed slavery, use your moral senses. Those of you who perpetuate this evil, you know who you are… Stop supporting evil, and know that you have a responsibility to your fellow human being. Stop allowing tyrants to control you because you stand to benefit. Shun complicity through comfort, live on your feet, not on your knees. False advertising, false prophecy, throw it down and realize that human understanding and conscience cannot be set aside.
thechaser on February 23rd, 2010
DC, what in the world are you talking about???
And what in the world are you talking about when you refer to the AMWAY corporation and the way they conduct themselves? you referring to the IBOs or the people who work in AMWAY at Castle hill.
What details do you need to make a decision that the company is not only legitimate and has many hard WORKING IBOs building a business who are controlling their time and making a impact on other people’s lives.
You think by talking to a few people and read a few blogs makes you an expert on the business; I see self imposed slavery is going to work for someone who only pays you what the job is worth and continue to do so because one doesn’t have the guts to step out and take some control on their finances.
Not everyone will want to build a business and thats ok; before you quote any more of what ever you were quoting get some real facts by actually speaking to someone at the company.
thechaser on February 23rd, 2010
Marie,
Pyramid Scheme is illegal, so check with the ACCC before making a comment like that.
And the next time you go to work, ask yourself how much are the share holders of who ever you work for is benefiting out of you turning up to work?
You have to WORK at this business just like any other, but the reward is that you can CONTROL your time. I don’t work, but I also work when I want; and I do that everyday for a few hours and then play with my kids. Thats retirment as far as I am concerned. Retired from the day in day out 9 to 5 job where your boss tells you when to have lunch and when you take a break.
The money will turn up once the business is set up correctly; no different to any other successful business that has hundreds of people working in it. You will rarely see the big boss who owns the business working everyday yet he is making all the money. So whats the problem; thats a business mind thinking instead of someone just thinking like an employee… business people understand leverage.
I would suggest anyone who read this blog to actually read what Darren Hardy said in his recently SUCCESS mag about time and money. It may actually make sense for some of you.
Joecool on February 24th, 2010
True, your job pays what the job is worth. But you can pick and choose to apply for jobs. If your current job doesn’t pay well, go find a better one.
The Amway system is unfair as well. Amway pays about 32% of your purchases back in bonuses. An IBO moving 100 PV gets 3% and layers of upline get 29% even though the new IBO did all the work.
What people need to understand is that many Uplines do not mention that there are two businesses running. The Amway business, which an IBO shares in the compensation, and a tools business (standing order, seminars) where the vast majority of IBOs do not share in the compensation. The tools business also has a higher profit margin than the Amway business, thus many uplines make most of their income from the tools.
Also, the tools are promoted as vital to your Amway business, even when there is not unbiased evidence that this is true. New IBOs don’t know better so many get caught up in the tools system, then at some point, they must decide to cut their losses and quit, or press on, pinning their hopes on future success that rarely ever comes.
And that is why Amway is often called a scam. Not all people do this, but many do and it is a cause for concern,
thechaser on February 24th, 2010
Joecool:
the tools income is now included in the plan… not sure if in all systems but certainl mentioned in ours.. people understand that when they reach a leadership level that there is a bonus for mentoring but its also in relation to the Amway PV
Joecool on February 24th, 2010
Thechaser,
So your group explains how you qualify for tools income and how much you get at various levels? Is it in writing?
thechaser on February 24th, 2010
we will explain to them how much is made at a platinum level.. the bonus is accessible on the website.
In the plan we tell them that there is income made from running functions and books sold however its in proportion to the AMWAY business.
We don’t go into details until the person is in the business but it is mentioned during the plan and the follow up.
a platinum will ususally receive about $1000 to $1500 from the tool flow.. which is quite a bit lower then a well structured platinum…. we find that in a usually platniumship there is about 40 to 50 on books and cds out of about 150 ppl in the group. Thats a pretty good ration in terms of tool flow and ppl.
From that you can gather that we don’t MAKE everyone go on tools as it is VOLUNTARY.
thechaser on February 24th, 2010
I know of at least one other group that makes mentions of the tools income and they makes sure that they do so in the plan as they do not want people to be mis-informed.
Joecool on February 25th, 2010
Thechaser,
Thanks for the info. Can I ask what group you are affiliated with? I’m glad to hear this. Part of what I see as problematic is the secrecy in some groups regarding this secondary source of income.
thechaser on February 25th, 2010
I am with LTD in US and also IDA in Aus
Joecool on February 26th, 2010
Thechaser,
You are a rare IBO. I was given access code to an exclusive LTD blog and they spoke about submission to upline being key to your success, dedication to the system, buy from yourself, and not questioning the system. I’m glad there are some IBOs who go against the flow.
thechaser on February 26th, 2010
Joecool,
is that a personal blog or the team site… how old is the blog?
You have to buy for yourself, as well as retail and you can’t retail something you don’t use. We are not sales people, where you make a sale and don’t worry about them anymore, you can’t lie to customers how great it is.
Its like a BMW car sales person driving a Toyota and tells you how great the BMW car is at a seminar.
As for the system, they are important as they allow people to build groups without being there. and keep the consistency the same through the group. People needs to learn that they are a independent business owner and have to make business decision based on the information provided.
It is important to stay connected with the upline and they do have a invested interest in you. But if an upline tells you that you must buy 1000pv every month when you are barely keeping up with 300pv a person needs to be responsible for their own decision making.
I haven’t met any leaders in LTD or heard anything thats on cds that suggest that.
Joecool on February 27th, 2010
TheChaser,
I was able to access an LTD member’s blog. It was chock full of submission to upline talk, and how you can only grow if you submit to upline like man submits to God. Or how men are not men if they don’t build the business hard.
I believe you that there are no cds with this on it. This kind of stuff is likely to be taught in smaller groups where there are only loyal team members present.
For example, when I was in WWDB, the speaker might mention “selling product” at a function, but in smaller meetings, our platinum would tell us that we are wasting our time selling products as the real money is made sponsoring others to increase volume.
Joanna on February 27th, 2010
The chaser,
How many people have you sponsered, and how many are now retired and living on their passive income?
Joecool on February 27th, 2010
I don’t even think diamonds are retired and living on passive income. When I was still building the biz, I used to see our upline diamond driving around town pretty frequently and he was wearing a suit. So even for higher pins, they still work, but at nite instead of 9-5.
I believe that the reality is, once you stop building, your business will fall apart. You might get some passive income for a while but it won’t last. I also do not believe you would get tools income once you stop “working”.
I mean why would these crown ambassadors keep working? Their schedules appear to be quite full. Do they love their downline that much or do they have to keep working in order to sustain the “diamond” lifestyle. I believe it is the latter.
Joanna on February 27th, 2010
The chaser,
So now there are groups admitting that people make money from tapes, books and meetings. And not from selling AMWAY. Why does there need to be a side buisness?
thechaser on February 27th, 2010
Joanna:
I said we ALSO make money from functions and cds when you reach a leadership level… we make over $3000 to $5000 a month on AMWAY and some of us are not even silvers.. so whats your point…. you keep piping on all these mumbo jumbo yet not willing to check the facts about what some people are acutally doing building a EMMA PAGE/AMWAY business.
4 parties week at average sale of $700 at 35% margin then a 9 to 12% bonus is a decent income.. you only need a team of 3 to 6 girls doing that can you are way on your way in making 60k a year part time..
Till this day you still don’t understand why there is a need for tapes and cds because you are NOT building the business… how in the world to I teach my group in the US or QLD what I am doing???? or how does my new downline teach a new IBO how to get started if I am not available…
You are a nurse right, so does any of your lecturer make money out of teaching you the materials? Did you have to buy text book? Did the author of those text books make money out of you purchasing the book?
Seriously your complains and questions has been addressed more than once… and you STILL DONT get it…
JoeCOOL, there is passive income in this but its still a business… for as long as you work for someone you will never understand the nature of a passive income.
I am still getting paid for the work I did two years ago, now if I don’t touch that group for the next 3 month I will still collect the $1300 4% override… so is that not the meaning of passive income???
Why do diamonds keep working… seriously guys… ask yourselves this… these diamonds are making over $40K a month.. i know and its and AMWAY check as I have seen it and heard it from a AMWAY Exec… why do you guys keep going to work everyday when your income is NO Where near that of a business owner let along a AMWAY DIAMOND (qualified)… The point is there are people who actually enjoy doing what they do in this industry, I for one is like that.. i enjoy teaching people how to sell, how to take ownership of their finances, how to earn extra money and with my spare time I like to do community work and charity work.. work in a local church.. so on and so on…
These people WORK, but they are in FULL control of their calendar… so am I… So maybe I could dare you to take a challenge and not work for a month and spend a month in my life and see if that matches up to your expectation.. we are not rich, but we are in control of time and money… i take a break when I want not because i have to .. i get up when i get up not because I have to go to work… The buisiness works around what is important to me and not the other way around..
That is the nature of passive income and having a business that you have control over.
Also, Joanna I have sponsored over 40 people and have helped more in depth and NONE of them are retired yet… but what made you think that all of them got in to retire???? Some got in to buy products.. some got in to sell jewellery…. and some is giving it a go and building teams… so if you are going to judge the whole business on how many I personally sponsored and how many are retired as whether this business is legit then you are so off track its not even funny.
rocket on February 28th, 2010
IBOFB is David Steadson. He is not even a Platinum in the Amway business, so he is no authority on what a Platinum makes.
He has no noteable success in Amway, and there are those who believe he is compensated by either Amway or one of the leaders which profit greatly from the system income (books, Kate, CD’s, and functions)
He stands to gain financially either way with his constant defense of Amway.
He also is not one to lecture others about belittling others and their viewpoints.
He responds to google alerts whenever there is any discussion on Amway, and in most cases butts into conversations where he is clearly not wanted.
So much for IBOFB’s opinion. Look up David Steadson on google and draw your own conclusions. He is certainly not anyone to look up to in terms of success in Amway.
So much for his opinion.
Many diamonds and above have quit Amway.
So much for passive, willable income.
I have nothing to gain if you do or don’t do Amway, also something to consider.
Jenny Organ on February 28th, 2010
There will come a day when everyone will be involved in a Network Marketing company and Amway is rated the best in the world BAR NONE. Microsoft have made the most millionaires in the world and Amway is the second company in the world to have done this. In 50 yrs they have paid out $59 BILLION in BONUSES! Does your company even come close? They help charites across the world. They are DEBT FREE and in the US downturn last year AMWAY
increased turnover by $1.2 BILLION – ummgh interesting facts. Faces such as Libby Trickett, Adam Gilchrist and Sandra Bullock put there faces to the products because they all rate within the top 5 in the world.
Amway is the distribution company IDA is a positive self development program that is totally awesome it teaches you how to be the BEST in all walks of life.
Im proud of being an IBO in Amway and my bonuses are pretty awesome – it allows me to be at home full time with my 3 beautiful daughters and the plan is to bring my husband home from work within 3 yrs.
This opportunity doesnt appeal to everyone but thats why its consumed by the 5% of the nation and not the 95% of people who chose to trade hrs for money.
Everyone is entitiled to their opinions but dont knock what you havnt tried – instead stay in your job have your income capped by your boss and enjoy your 4 weeks holiday that is in your contract. And enjoy your retirement at 67! Whilst the likes of us will have the opportunity to have uncapped income, travel 3 months of the year, be retired from “Mondays – Friday 9 -5 ” by the time were 35 and enjoy the passive income hitting our accounts month after month after month after month……
thechaser on February 28th, 2010
Jenny:
good on you for giving it a go and with persistence you will have your husband home in no time.
As for that diamonds quit… just like any profession people will quit for what ever reason. Who knows why a lawyer who is a partner of a firm would quite his job and become a restaurant owner (i know the person so its not an example).. does that mean the profession of being solicitor or being a partner what all its cut out to be??
Why would an emerald vulantarily resign his emeraldship when he is a qualified founders emerald year in year out.. who knows… personal reasons perhaps.
The point is, like Jenny said this is an OPPORTUNITY.. for those who wants to give it a go. If you don’t thats fine, but unless you have given it a REAL go or perhaps is SUCCESSFUL in business of a similar nature then your opinion is just an opinion and not fact.. that may be harsh but it would be like taking advice from a lawyer about your medical conditions… just plain silly.
Joecool on March 2nd, 2010
Amway created the second most millionaires? Really, can anyone verify this? No, I thought not.
Amway is debt free? Really? Can anyone verify this? I’ve never heard it coming from Amway.
When you work a job, you invest and save. You create your own form of passive income.
Sure, a huge Amway business might pay off for a while, but how long will it last if you “walk away”? Keep in mind that less than 2/3 of IBOs last even a full year.
Have some kind of problem with upline or the corporation and your business can be kaput in a day.
Why do diamonds keep working? I believe it’s because they have to.
Why do diamonds quit? TheChaser, I disagree that it’s like any other profession. Other professions don’t promote passive residual income that is perpetual and willable. If someone had income rolling in, they would either sell the business or retire and relax. A diamond quitting paints a whole different picture.
thechaser on March 2nd, 2010
There are over 5000 qualified diamonds and above around the world… by definitions these guys are millionaires.. These are currently QUALIFIED and not including some of the ones that have succeeded and moved elsewhere.
I don’t know how many microsoft created but 5000 is still not too bad in the one company.
There are too many companies that has over 5000 employees that can ever claim that they have created millionaires for working in the company. If you find one please let me know and I will go work for them.
Joecool, you and I bot know a diamond may have a diamond pin but is not a diamond in income. I am only concerned about that the QUALIFIED diamonds do and not the ones that is out of qualification and are only edified on stage for their achievements.
Like a traditional business if you don’t structure your business correctly you may not have much income coming in because your expenses are too high.
The point is, why do you think that everyone who joins wants to go diamond. Like I have said many times, there are people who is happy making that extra $2000 a month because they are selling some jewellery and when you have 20 people like that in your team are you telling me that the money wont just turn up in your bank account every month. Isn’t that passive. I know my cheque turns up even when I haven’t sold A single jewellery.
2/3 of IBOs quit because there are a least half of those that didn’t do a single thing. I look at my organisation and I can tell you the same thing. They start and won’t even buy a product to try and because they bought something at sign up they are classified as an ACTIVE IBOs so they become included in the statistics of how many quit and how much and average IBO would make if they get started.
The reality is that only about 1 out 4 IBOs are actually giving it a poke.
You are right about working and saving.. thats all great but seriously how much do you need to create an extra 50k a year. You and I both know that the debt free asset would have to be in excess of 700k to yield you that return. So how many AVERAGE income earners can do that?? Average income in australia is about $50k so lets say someone is a GREAT saver and saves half of it a year. it will still take years in fact probably never to save 700k in their working life. Thats a fact, check any superannuation fund average and you will be surprised that an average super fund after 45 years of working is about 150K… THAT is a fact. so you draw on that for the next 15 years… it will likely run out before you die.
AMWAY is a business that allows you to MAKE some extra money if you want. If you have the skill sets and built a HUGE team then your income will be HUGE but it takes time to develop those skills.
Joecool on March 2nd, 2010
TheChaser,
Do you have a source to verify that Amway has 5000 qualified diamonds? Do you have a source to verify that all of these qualified diamonds are millionaires?
Amway doesn’t say how many diamonds they have and Amway has no way to know if diamonds are millionaires. The closest I got was an Amway corporate blogger confirming that Amway North America had 160 Diamond (ships) at the 2006 diamond club (North America only).
Amay reports that an average diaond earned $146,900 before taxes. After taxes and expenses, I suspect many diamonds are not millionaires. In fact, with fancy suits and cars, I bet many more diamonds are in debt rather than being millionaires.
Sure, not everyone who joins wants to go diamond, but it sure seems like that is the focus for many. The plan as shown, culminates in diamond. Dream Nite is supposed to motivate you to go diamond. Upline is more inclined to help future diamonds rather than a guy who joined to earn $50 a month.
The fact is that nobody, including Amway, knows how many millionaires the Amway opportunity has created. I wish people would stop perpetuating this myth. It simply is not true. If it were, I am sure it would be on IBOFB’s website or somewhere easiy accessible on the net.
Broady on March 2nd, 2010
The chaser, I have discussed your ideas with my friend. The tightening I mentioned on my friend was not to sign up, as he had already done so a few months ago. When I decided against entering the “business opportunity” the man I was dealing with started pressuring my friend (straight after I said NO) to get more people on board so HE not my friend, could have more people under him. This man wasn’t trying to teach my friend how to interest others in the business, he was poaching my friends contacts for himself.
My friend paid the sign up, and has yet to receive any products. When I informed my friend that he was supposed to receive products once he signed up, he confronted his “mentor” and has been given different excuses since.
I get that not all IBO’s are like this. But surely there are measures in place to make sure that all IBO’s have a certain standard to uphold. You said “The Amway business is about taking ownership of your life and is about building Wealth in many ways. You will need to meet the team to understand that.”
Why have so many people decided against the business once they have met the team? Why have so many people become bankrupt?
I did Avon, which is running your own business, yes it requires contacts and you develop your own work schedule – however we did not have to purchase tools or attend seminars. I haven’t heard of anyone going bankrupt from starting a business with Avon. Perhaps Amway should take a leaf out of the Avon book. This is in NO WAY A PERSONAL ATTACK. I have read the past posts, and know there are a few people who have resorted to personal attacks.
thechaser on March 2nd, 2010
Joecool:
There are 5000 people at the 50th anniversary diamond invitation… you have to be qualified to be there.
the nature of a diamond business, even at just 6 platinums (not legs) would yield over $160k including bonuses. That not pearl bonus or depth bonus or one off bonuses.
The fact that last year the founders diamond received a check for 500k one of states that they will earn more then a million just last year.
As for classification of millionaire, some one who is on $80k a year and has all his mortgage paid off is classified a millionaire as he/she has assets of over $1mil.
To be paid $160k when you turn up to work or not is passive… and that requires more then an asset of $1m to yield that result.
Thats why I believe many people classified these diamonds as millionaires.
I don’t proclaim it but i can see where it may have came from.
Joecool on March 3rd, 2010
TheChaser,
I think I saw that IBOFB had claimed that 4000 diamonds showed up for that celebration. North America however, has less than 200 diamonds, unless most of them skip a free trip to Hawaii for diamond club. Did Amway say these were qualified diamonds? I didn’t see that. In any case, I have other points.
I also diagree with you that these diamonds are millionaires. Founders diamonds are the exception, not the rule. Many diamonds show off lifestyle at functions. They show off expensive lifestyles. Example is the dream nite function. Expensive lifestyles cost money, which might be why Greg Duncan went bankrupt, and why other diamonds encountered financial issues.
If your definition of a millionaire is an income of 80K and a mortgage paid off with assets of a million bucks, then congratulate my job, I will be there in another handful of years.
A 160K whether you work or not sounds good. Why hasn’t any notable North Ameircan diamond ever exercised this option? Why do they keep working? Because they have to, I suspect.
With attrition and the required “side volume”, you stop working and your business will soon stop paying. I don’t think you can really defend this one.
Joecool on March 3rd, 2010
Amway Japan $500 Mln Syndicated Loans Wins Rating From Fitch
Tokyo, Nov. 30 (Bloomberg) — Amway Japan Ltd., a seller of houseware products, will use the proceeds of a $500 million syndicated loan to refinance existing debt, Amway and arranger J.P. Morgan & Co. said.
Ratings agency Fitch has given the loan a “BBB-” rating, making Amway Japan one of the first Japanese companies to have a syndicated loan rated by a credit agency.
Amway Asia Pacific Ltd. and two holding companies in the U.S. guaranteed the credit, Fitch said.
The loan will be drawn in three tranches: one of $125 million for three years, one of $275 million for four-and-a-half years, and one of $100 million for five years as a private placement, said Aniruddha Roy, head of credit origination at J.P. Morgan Securities Asia Ltd.
Amway Japan has seen sales, profitability and its distributor base decline over the last three years, Fitch said in a statement. The company was purchased in July by a Japanese personal care products firm owned by ALAP Holding Co. of the U.S., one of the loan guarantors.
Amway Japan, which Roy said will use the money for refinancing, was delisted as of Sept. 27 due to the acquisition.
biteyabum on March 3rd, 2010
There is nothing wrong with being motivated, you benefit in more ways then one. There is nothing bad in that. If people come out with a more positive mindset, then good for them, its those people who can not see nor understand a beautiful open and free mind that will forever think negatively and call everything they can not see a scam.
thechaser on March 3rd, 2010
joecool:
i would never defend not working; as you may have read in my other posts that I have stated that this is LIKE OTHER businesses and you have to WORK.
Continue to build leaders but there is a point when you will have enough leaders/executives that your business would not need YOU to be there. This is no different to any other REAL BUSINESS organisation.
Small business of under 50 ppl is still depending on the owner… when it becomes 1000 ppl.. its no longer dependent on the owner but individual department head. Thats about the right number for a diamondship… (its probably more like 2000 to 3000 with about 20 to 30 leaders)
Income is no longer determined by the act of working buy on leveraging other people’s efforts.
Difference in a Network business and Trad business is that the person who is a 3% who is willing to learn the skill set can build a large organisation but the chance of a cleaner for a multinational to become a CEO is slim (he can if he is willing to change, and will be determined by others)… to build a diamondship is based on individual effort of putting 6 organisations together that runs 7500pv.. thats it…
As for stopping work, why would you stop working in a business that has given you so much time and freedom??? This business is a diamonds’ life.. its a career path of developing leaders, why would you stop.
We all know how much Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Trump and all these other billionaires is worth; do you ask why are they still working. They have schedules that you and I couldn’t even fathom because the love to.
Can they stop work, sure they can.
As for the snippet about Japan, do you have something on GLOBAL figures… i don’t have it and i dont claim that they are debt free. There are plenty of other things that they do well and we can back.
Many of your point is valid, but they also apply to any trad business owner so the decision is whether you want to be a business owner or just someone who would work for someone. There is no right or wrong, just a choice.
An AMWAY business gives average people a chance of making some extra money, and for some a way of making a lot of money. Not everyone can start a franchise for $200.
Joecool on March 3rd, 2010
TheChaser,
I agree about the organization and it’s size. However, there’s a difference. In a traditional company, the volume is based on sales to customers whereas Amway sales are primarily to IBOs. IBOs drop out quickly since most of them never reach a profit level. This is why I believe residual income, while possible, is nearly impossible for most Amway businesses, unless you have diamonds in depth or something, which is very rare.
The clip about Amway Japan was for Jenny, entry #749 who is bragging that Amway is debt free.
You do know that Bill Gates and Warren Buffet have stepped back from their primary roles in their businesses in order to enjoy life and their trappings.
I just don;t believe that most diamonds are millionaires. And let me explain. I believe the diamonds that show off excessive lifestyles such as jewelry, fancy suits, cars and mansions, are living on the edge or in debt, because a diamond income cannot sustain the lifestyle. Look at Greg Duncan, a founder’s triple diamond, bankrupt. There are other examples, but that is a glaring one.
Lastly, a diamond incoe is before taxes and business expenses so in reality, a diamond might be living on half or a third of their gross after taxes and medical insurance, etc. A middle to uppper middle class lifestyle at best.
thechaser on March 3rd, 2010
Joecool:
I sure do hope that one day you will see that there are changes taking place in the world of AMWAY and that the corp is focusing on making sure that each IBO is profitable but implementing retail rules and are enforces. UK market for one is taking that path as well as the 50pv retail rule in your market.
IBOs are customers too you know, they do consume products. I have ‘IBO’s in my organisation that i have not seen at a workshop for over 1 year but every month there is still volume. Joecool, you can not deny that there are people who actually WILLINGLY buy AMWAY products because they want too. No one forces them.
In the case of Greg Duncan, you will need to be more specific as he is classified as a chapter 11 bankruptcy and chapter 7 which is liquidation.
Any millionaire can be bankrupted in matter of 12 months, not just in an AMWAY business. You should read the recent BRW, top 100 milllionaires; there were a few in there that were in the top 100 and is now bankrupt. Does that mean that the industry of IT or construction is not working?? No, business people can enter bad business ventures; how is that different to a AMWAY diamond who participates in other businesses that went south. Greg Duncan didn’t lose his diamondship to go bankrupt. It was a court case bill of $9 mil that caused him to do that.
Once people learn how to start someone correctly and treat this business like a business where there is cost and income as well as customers and business team leaders. Then you will find that the business will be stable. Tell the truth, teach the truth and match the figures to their dreams and goals and as they grow teach them to reach for more if they want to.
This process is slower but I can assure you its more stable.
Joecool on March 4th, 2010
TheChaser:
I believe Greg Duncan is in chapter 7. The reason this is an issue is because he was touted for his financial acumen. He made a fortune selling business support material on that reputation. Now we find out he is a failure. I think it is significant. I saw that Amway offered Greg a loan of a million dollars. Not sure if he tooko iy or not.
I agree that Amway has some customers who want the product. But I believe that for many IBOs, their desire for Amway products is based on the hope that Amway will make them rich. Once they stop building the business, their desire for products goes away and they go right back to WalMart. It tells me that the desire is predicated only on the hope that it brings.
Amway might be making some changes, but in the US, I see very little noticable change. I still hear of legitimate complaints going unaddressed and the secrecy surrounding many of the tools systems still exists. IBOs are still being told they cannot succeed without tools and that they should submit to upline and do whatever it takes to attend that next function. In particular, I believe the most abusive lines to be WWDB, LTD and BWW. My opinion only, but these are significantly large groups in Amway.
Dan on March 5th, 2010
An Amway rep tried to get me to join, but my instincts were saying ‘caution’. I was regaled with how much I could earn and all the luxury items I could buy once I became a rep. I then asked the rep how long he had been with Amway and how much wealth he had created for himself. He told me he had been with Amway for four years but declined to let me know how much profit he had made. He drove an old model car. During our conversation he also told me about his church visits with his family. He even took me to an Amway distribution centre to show me the products they sell. I almost fell over dead when I saw the prices of products inside. A 12 pack of small protein milk shakes were $56.00. A lot of the stuff I could get at Woolies or on Ebay for far less than half their costs. Still he assured me they were the best products around. The people walking around the centre gave me the creeps. It was like they were a part of some religious cult. My rep kept going on about how I should come along to the meetings and meet the big gurus. He even said he would come and pick me up to take me along. The more he talked, the more it gave me the chills. He said he wasn’t one to hound people, yet here he was giving me all these brochures and inspirational cd’s, and pointing to pictures on the walls of the founding fathers of Amway. It was scary. It’s exactly like church groups that try to prey on the weak and gullible, well that’s the feeling I was getting from this guy. In the end I had to hand his cd’s and brochures back and tell him that I wasn’t interested. The people that have made it rich in Amway are the ones that have managed to suck in the weak and gullible, and you can bet a few of them go to church too.
Myway on March 5th, 2010
I went to an amway meeting and saw some really creepy people there, I went to the supermarket and saw some really creepy people there, I went to church and saw some really creepy people there , I went to work and saw some really creepy people there. I work in the corporate world and the way they rave on about being PC , well they all just act like they’re in a cult! I went to the football and you should have seen all the wierdo’s clapping and cheering! this blogs sounds like you all have a real gripe against HUMAN NATURE! If you can’t let other people do what they think is right for themselves at the time then YOU ARE THINKING LIKE A CULTIST!!!I’ve been around long enough to know that business is business. If it doesn’t work it doesn’t last.This is obviously working for someone.$200 extra a month could save a marriage, that’s valuable to someone out there.
thechaser on March 5th, 2010
Dan:
you don’t make money by becoming a rep, you have to do some work!!! duhh!!
And before you balk at the prices do some proper research into the contents and the amount thats in the package.
The is $80 protein powders and $40 protein powders in a normal health food store. Yet there are people who still by the $80 one because of the content and the quality.
If you think people walking in the shops gives you the creep you are either very introverted and don’t get out much or just simply exaggerating??
And just to correct you, the people who have made it rich in AMWAY are the one who have developed strong leaders, the weak ones blew out usually within the first couple of weeks or months.
Why dont you listen what Libby Tricket had to say before making a comment.
http://video.au.msn.com/watch/video/vizard-s-big-news/xb9t14a
Not a bad segment, but some ignorant comments by a MONEY Mag writer.
Joecool on March 9th, 2010
Most IBOs, if they are associated with a system, lose money – because of the system!
The system consists of voicemail, cds, tapes, seminars, books and other support materials. These may run you from $100 to $500 a month or more, depending on your level of commitment.
All this so you can earn less than $100 a month for most IBOs.
Hard work doesn’t equal success in most cases. Because the system doesn’t work.
John on March 11th, 2010
Reading all these comments very interesting indeed. I am in the amway business or have been in it. ITs not a pyrimad scheme although it looks that way. Amway only distributes products to its clients. After introducing like 40 people in my second team. I do agree it works because i got paid around $80 passive income depending on your volume of course per month. The bad thing about this is you have to service your clients make them change their buying behaviour although products are good, they are so expensive. If your clients arent buying then i guess you will forever not be rich but if they constantly buy then yes it is a possibilty to get rich! ITs who you know not what you know! I’m out of the business now of course but i went into it not knowing the negative side of amway until i left it. From my experience network21 was good but i guess any company associated with republican party/bush era i guess you have something to worry about! 2012 amway could collapse! it still is a possiblity.
thechaser on March 12th, 2010
The most costly way of building this business is to do it slowly.. so if you have actually put the system to the test then it will work but most people don’t.
I have never seen any system that is more then $100 a months and that includes books and cds.
My business expense a year would not be more then $5000, that is cheap if you have any idea how much a trad business would cost you.
If you don’t believe me then go try and buy a small franchise and you will be min $30k behind before making a dime. So does that mean that system doesn’t work.
Do the work and do the numbers and you will be paid, simple. you don’t turn up for work you don’t get paid, you don’t sell something or move a product or move people in this business, you don’t get paid. So whats the difference… ??
Check some real facts
http://www.crwglobal.wordpress.com
Jon on March 14th, 2010
The Chaser,
You say the system is less than $100 a month. That is not true, at least for me. voicemail alone and website fees is $50 a month. Add in standing orders and that is another $50 or more each month. That doesn’t include books and functions. What system are you in? The real facts shows that the systems cost upwards of $200 a month or more and most IBOs will never earn even $200.
thechaser on March 16th, 2010
Jon:
i am in Aus, we have cds that about $60 a month, including books and website.
Functions are $130 for majors 3 times a year and BDS are $20 per seesion 7 times a year
we don’t have voicemail, we use bloggs and podcasts,
by the sound of things you better move some products to cover your business expense. Neverthless, $200 is still NOT expensive to run a business. I make that in one day doing some retailing with Fashion jewelleries and I personally do about 10 of those a month so to me the problem is not the system cost (it can be in some cases – like yours) its more that IBOs are not taught to retail and be profitable.
Its a business, there is out going and incoming. If your outgoing is more then your income then you need to fix it.
Joecool on March 17th, 2010
TheChaser,
Your group is unusual and does not compare to US groups.
In the US, most groups do not emphasize sales and I don’t know of any major groups in the US that doesn’t use vooicemail.
Joecool on April 8th, 2010
I ran into an IBO last nite. He actually tried to convince me that perfect water is a better deal at $48 a case than a $8 case of water from Costco with 35 bottles compared to Amway’s 24 bottles.
thechaser on April 8th, 2010
joecool:
if you don’t see value in it DON’T buy it, no one is going to force you.
In Australia there is Miracle Water that is sold to individuals for $50 for 24 bottles and people are still buying them. I personally wouldn’t but it was publicly advertise on TV on how good they are hence there are customers.
What you mentioned is hardly a flaw in the business; its like saying I had a guy from Mercedes trying to tell me that a Merc at $100k is better then the Ford I can buy in the car yard next door???
I also know for a fact that there are some reputable Water companies that BOTTLE tank water through a tape filter and calls it Mineralised water. Its not regulated here so I am not sure if it is in US but these are facts.
thechaser on April 8th, 2010
Rocket is spamming..
Luke on April 8th, 2010
Thanks Chaser, I’ve deleted the duplicate comments and marked them as spam.
IBO Potential on April 24th, 2010
Thank you for this site Luke…i was about to meet with two reps in a few hours to sign up. I had doubts but I am convinced now it is something that i do not want to be a part of. Before reading the posts, my thoughts were that it was a win win situation. Spending $200 to sign up with a 6 month refund system was generous. I figured it is a one time payment and months, maybe years…it would grow into something infinitely worthwhile. However, i understand that there are a lot of supplimental cost that are encouraged….i really do not like the products….i think they are overpriced…i dont care to have 24 cans of tuna, or 48 bottles of water and i do not want to wait a week to receive my dish detergent lol. I am happy that it has worked for so many ppl, but the system does not pass the smell test. Regards.
Daniel G on April 24th, 2010
Hi all. The Amway/N21 organisation is for those seeking to create abundance in their lives in all 5 areas: psychological, physical, emotional, spiritual and financial. Look around you. Are you surrounded by smiling people? Look in the mirror. Are you smiling? Just about everyone I see these days is miserable. Misery en masse is fearful of happiness, therefore labels a room full of happy people a cult. For too many people happiness is an unknown and therefore something to be feared. What are you so afraid of? Getting your ego tarnished because you got ‘sold’ into being happy? Getting you to a seminar so you can see what is on offer independant of your own judgements: what a horrid trick for someone to play on you! The N21 CD’s and books, at the very minimum give me direction and purpose to my life, and healthy positive attitude, something that is required in my day job selling insulation to builders (thanks Peter Garrett). I am happier, heathier and better-off now that I fill my head with good messages instead of CSI: Miami or something equally inane that does not add-value to my life. The total minimum spend in Amway/N21 over the course of 1 year is $3756AUD. That is 52 Business Previews, 12 Business Development Seminars, 3 Weekend Seminars, 12 books on success and 60 motivational CD’s. It works out to be about $73 a week. If you don’t want to spend $73 a week bettering yourself and through osmosis become a happier person because you don’t like your identity being challenged then have the balls to say no. Don’t be so insecure. Go and buy half a dozen beers and an eccie instead.
PS. I actually dig CSI. But I dig happiness more.
thechaser on April 24th, 2010
its funny but most people who made a negative remark about this business have never OWNED a business yet they seem to be experts in running one.
Each to their own.
AS for IBO Potential, are you saying that you don’t like any of the 600 EXCLUSIVES that we have, have you tried, XS, Beauty Cycle or even looked at some of the fashion jewellery???… and if you would wait till your detergent to run out and not be prepare and buy something before it runs out then thats sad!! It actual shows that the people who are showing the business have not shown you some of the benefits of the product or you are actually not prepare to listen. You would find more comfort in listening to some complete stranger on a forum that you have no idea where they come from or have any credibility to make a judgement on a business then to ask the business owners who are making a decent living by building volume and leaders.
thechaser on April 24th, 2010
why not listen to some real facts and see how warped people’s ideas can be when it comes to a business.. its all because most people would only ever listen to opinions then facts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oc_tWViJsVE
Fi on April 25th, 2010
It never ceases to amaze me how this country is full of critics. My parents came to Australia because of the many opportunities it has to build a great life. We have embraced and continue to do so good opportunities such as the Amway business and property options. I understand both require consistence and hard work but we do this because our goals and dreams are bigger and we have realized we do not have to be slaves to the 9 to 5 job. If people would just stop being negative and such pessimists, and get up and do something with their lives and for their children there wouldn’t be negative sites like this running. I think some people have to go and live in a developing country that only pays you $5 a day to realize how fortunate they are to live here.
thechaser on April 26th, 2010
Fi:
fortunately for freedom of speech and unfortunate for freedom of speech as there are many people who would have an opinion on a topic only know a little bit and more often then not they think they are experts.
If any of these critics actually sat down and do the numbers and look at all the additional benefits and other intangibles they may have a idea what they are criticising.
Most people don’t even realise how big our industry is let alone the finer details. Its a $100billion industry with many well known business figures backing the business model as well as Oxford university providing a course on network marketing .. but hey I guess most of these critic already know all these, thats what make them experts right??
Just know this, there will only ever be 5% of people who want to be in control of their life and the rest just want to be controlled because they know nothing else.
Joecool on April 27th, 2010
Yes, let’s do the numbers. In the 6-4-2 plan, the majority of IBOs do 100 PV and earn about $10.
Voicemail alone exceeds the amount of earnings for most IBOs. Factor in standing orders and functions and most IBOs are losing a LOT of money over a period of time.
Is this the math you refer to?
thechaser on April 27th, 2010
Joecool:
I my 6-4-2 organisation only about 1/4 if i am lucky that is on cds.. and that a number across most organisations.
so I can assure out that my tools income does not exceed my business income. it barely supplement the free cds that i give out!!
Joecool on April 28th, 2010
So where are the numbers you refer to?
Basically, the IBOs not on cds are irrelevent as they are unlikely to be “serious” IBOs. Out of the remaining IBOs who are building the business, most of them do not make enough to pay for their voicemail, let alone functions.
The only exception is a group that retails and does not participate in a system, but that would be a rare group.
thechaser on April 28th, 2010
most groups are teaching RETAIL.. i know of many in Aust along.. so you need to get with the times.
Joecool on April 28th, 2010
TheChaser,
As I said, I have no issue with retailers. But I’m in the US and most groups teach “buy from yourself”. Amway admits that less than 4% of products are sold to non IBOs. Thus most IBOs get the minimum rebate from Amway which doesn’t even cover the cost of their voicemail.
Thus most IBOs who build a business are losing money.
Also, some groups teach some retail, only so their downline IBOs have enough money to buy more tools.
thechaser on April 28th, 2010
Joecool:
what you have being pointing out is not the flaw of the business but the business owners not taking the right steps to ensure profitability.
I stand to say the this business IS profitable when you treat it and work it like a business. Most people gives it a poke to see if it moves, and when it doesn’t they blame it on the business and never on themselves for not taking the right action.
i currently run 3 other businesses using the concepts and model that I run the Amway business and they all have a residual nature. I move products and people buy. Simple, that is essentially the Amway business but the good thing is not that by teaching others the skills and techniques in running a good business I now receive an over-ride of their business. No different to my 6 distributors that is not in the Amway business where I receive a trial from them for as long as they are in operation.
Joecool on April 29th, 2010
TheChaser: “If any of these critics actually sat down and do the numbers and look at all the additional benefits and other intangibles they may have a idea what they are criticising.”
I have done the numbers and they all end up with IBOs losing money. Do you have a different set of numbers?
Many IBOs do little so they make nothing. No argument there. But those who move 100 PV, which is the majority of active IBOs, do not make enough money to pay for their voicemail expenses.
frenchie on May 4th, 2010
I came across this blog after 2 of my friends approached me about Amway. I was of course intrigued and open to the idea until they began to attack and belittle me for my choice to work in a 9-5 job by implying that I am a slave to the traditional system. They of course told me of the endless benefits of Amway and how they were free and would be financially set for life within a few years. I am a traditional business owner who previously had a successful career in sales so I can easily spot the various techniques. As I listened I looked around their falling down rented house and wondered how they thought bringing me to this environment would ever convince me of their success! I was repeatedly called a slave but with my earning and bonuses from my sales career, at 27 I am now own my home outright, take many holidays per year and am fortunate enough to have the money to surround myself with beautiful things. It was clear that they were the only slaves in the room.
The idea that if you work hard in the traditional sense makes you a slave is utterly stupid. In reality we work hard and someone at the top of the pile reaps the rewards, be it for a traditional company or Amway! The choice is whether you do that in a structured and supportive system which offers regular salary, bonus schemes, career progression and private health care etc or not.
The sad thing about this from my experience is the idea that people are being sold a dream that is very difficult to reach. My friends had recently welcomed a new baby into their life and I worry that their focus is on Amway. I see that they spend very little time with their son and their lives are completely consumed with this system. Unfortunately for them I am not convinced of their future success as their lack of earnings after 2 years with Amway means that their approach seems somewhat desperate!
I am sure there are people out there who succeed with this but it seems to me that success with Amway comes at great costs.
My advice would be that if you have a job/career that currently does not give you everything you want out of life, work hard at that and put all your energy into it…it will pay off!
There is not such thing as easy money…as my friends are finding out!
thechaser on May 4th, 2010
Frenchie:
What you have said is so true, you can succeed in any quadrant; unfortunately for your friend is that they have failed to see that owning a business whether is in a networking structure or a trad sense requires hard work and people skills.
I have worked in sales and have had sales team and I receive over rides on their effort. You are a sales person and obviously has gift in that career but the question is how many of people can do what you do??? Can everyone be as good as what you do?? The Amway business IS a selling business but its not a sales team, its an organisation that sell and distribute. Any average person has the opportunity to plug into a supportive structure (depend on which team you are on) to help you build a business.
When Robert K was talking about the 4 ways of making money, he was merely saying that there are 4 ways of making money and which one do you want.
I look for businesses that when I do the work once I can be paid for a long time, and Sales is one that can generate an income based on effort. A check out chick IS a slave to the system because there is no where for her to go; you can not tell me in your right mind saying that someone who is a check out chick has as much potential as you have in your sales world.
There is just one slight mis understanding on your part about a networking pay structure vs the trad biz. In trad business the person who OWNs the business will ultimately make all the money.
In a Networking structure, the person who does the most work REAPs the reward no matter when and where they sit in the business. You will need to looking into that further as there are people today making more money then those who started 20 years ago and they are UNDER or In that person’s organisation.
I agree with you, work hard in anything you do but I would add to also work smart. I currently have 4 businesses all running in a similar format to a Amway structure where each person as a win win situation. All learnt via building an Amway business.
I end with this, its a business so work it like a business. Don’t think just because the other person doesn’t want to do what you do that make them wrong. It may just simply mean they don’t want to do what you do, but thats ok because they can be a customer because tomorrow they are likely to go and buy something from a store that you have in an Amway business, introduce it to them to see if they like it. And build a great awareness about the Amway business and not go out there telling people that they are stupid because they are not building an Amway type business. Thats just crazy, for your own business and for the whole direct selling industry.
Joecool on May 5th, 2010
The Chaser, still no “numbers” that you spoke of in post #781?
The problem with Amway, at least in the US, is that it is not sustainable. Less than 5% of IBOs are around after 4-5 years. You cannot “do the work once” and reap rewards. That is a myth used by IBO leaders to entice people into joining.
And while hard work in needed in most ventures, that work often goes unrewarded in Amway because of the pyramidal nature of the compensation plan. If Amway pays 30+% of an IBO’s volume, then 100 PV/300BV will net a bonus of about $90, but the IBO who did the work gets only about $10. Layers of upline split up the remaining $80 generated by the IBO who “did the work”. Most people figure this out and quit.
Factor in system expenses and now you have IBOs losing money for the priviledge of doing the work and not being paid. These IBOs also figure it out and quit. It’s why Amway’s retention of IBOs is dismal.
Joanna on May 8th, 2010
Daniel G
You sound just like the people I had the displeasure to meet involved in AMWAY. Not really making any money but trying to convince themselves and their prospects that they would one day. No one could ever show me any evidence to confirm their claims. “Filling your head with happiness” sounds to me that you are avoiding reality. Yes everyone is happy at the meetings, they are trying to sell something.
Are you saying that making endless phone calls, cold calling on people, trying to convince total strangers to come and look at a “great opportunity” and trying to sell overpriced products to family, friends and neighbours will make people happy?
I happy with what I do in my life, I don’t need to convince myself.
Has it been part of your indoctrination to accuse people who won’t join your organisation to be labelled as drinkers and drug users? Are you trying to justify what you do by belittling everyone else who won’t join?
Oh and it doesn’t look like you have factored in travelling, wear and tear on vehicles, phone calls, accommodation and fares among other expenses into your calculations.
Joanna
thechaser on May 8th, 2010
joanna:
You still have completely missed the point and even if anyone shows you any evidence you wouldn’t believe it because you think we are all indoctrinated.
Why don’t you go and speak to a current platinum, Emerald or a recent diamond? You have not spent any time with them and you claim that you have not been shown any evidence.
Is it perhaps you are not looking for evidence; no one said is not good doing what you are doing. But if you are looking to build a business then YES you do have to make phone calls, looking for new customers, look for new partners and look for new opportunities.
The fact you think like that tells me that you have NEVER built ANY business of any kind and is just happy working; which is all fine but its not what building a business is about.
With the principles that I have learnt from the Amway business I have just built another business that creates about $500 per run a week and I currently have 4 runs going. I work 2 hours in the morning and 2 in the afternoon.
You let me know how that would be possible if you are working in a Job??
The medical profession is very important but don’t come on a forum telling people how wrong they are in wanting to build a business when you have NEVER built one.
Joanna on May 8th, 2010
thechaser
Like I mentioned in my previous post…no one in AMWAY will show me evidence of their income.
Diamonds and Emeralds will say anything to protect their business, (CD’s, books and seminars) just like any IBO will say their “doing really well” even though they have only been involved for three weeks and haven’t made a cent. When I say evidence, I mean tax returns, and books just like anyone would expect when entering a legitimate business.
does AMWAY teach IBO’s to belittle or imply that they drink and take drugs like Daniel G implied?
Does it teach you not to take into account the genuine business expenses like phone calls and travelling ?
I didn’t tell anyone that they were wrong, I just asked why someone is told to belittle others because they won’t join their business. I don’t have people in Myer telling me to have a “drink or take another ecceie” because I didn’t buy anything.
You were so quick to reply to me but never mentioned Daniel G rants, which tells me that also condone putting people down because they won’t waste their money and time on your “business”.
And are you saying that AMWAY doesn’t really work and that you had to start another business to make money, I was told that if you followed all the principles you could retire in two to five years. Was I being lied to?
As I have mentioned, I never said anyone was wrong, you accused me of saying that. I just made comment on some ones post.
Joanna
thechaser on May 9th, 2010
Joanna:
You have NOT met many in AMWAy; you met a small pocket of people in Lane Cove that is hardly a lot of people.
Amway doesn’t teach anyone to belittle people as they are a distribution company when are you going to realise that?? there is a difference between AMWAY and AMWAY IBOs.
So are you saying that if one doctor or judge is a racist that every doctor and judge is racist. That is hardly logic.
i will answer the rest another time
Joecool on May 11th, 2010
Haha, speaking to a diamond would be like talking to a lottery winner. Of course they will be positive. What many uplines do is to suck you inot the tools systems and then convince you that the business is about saving marriages, making friends or some other feel good proposition.
Let’s look at numbers. Average “active” IBO earns $115 a month (gross income) and that number is inflated with diamonds and other big shots. Most IBOs don’t sell products, or sell few products. Amway says 3.4% of their goods are sold to non IBOs. Thus the Amway profits and lifestyles are being paid for by downline IBOs.
IBOs who are lower on the pay scale do not even make enough to pay their voicemail bill, let alone other tools and functions.
2/3 of IBOs won’t be around after a year. So much for “residual” income. More than 95% of IBOs won’t be around for 5 years.
Ryllara on May 13th, 2010
Hi I had a lady talk to me about an I-commerce business opportunity for IDA/Amway which she showed me a powerpoint demonstration on her laptop. When she mentioned Amway(alarm bells ringing), she explained the whole marketing system, how it works and lots of perfect pictures of cars and houses and holidays and big numbers of money made. She says it is $80 AUD to start up. She did not explain what I actually do to make the money. All I understand is that they want me to generate clients. She also mentioned CD’s and a meeting to attend. I am very suspicious of it all as I have joined MLM businesses before including Herbalife and Melaleuca.I dont think I should join this company-my boyfriend has told me about Amway before and it wasnt a positive comment.
thechaser on May 15th, 2010
Ryllara:
There are 600 products to choose from, ask her about beautycycle, artistry, emma page.
Why no look at http://www.amway.com.au for some research instead of coming to blogs like this.
Go to a workshop and meet the other people and work it out from there.
Ask yourself, why would Libby Tricket would be an ambassador for a company that is not positive and said that she had reservations in the beginning but after EXTENSIVE research with her husband she has no issues. This was not national TV on ACA.
Your job is to speak to people who is interested in making some extra money and show them how the AMWAY business works, via paths such as artistry, nutriway, XS, Beauty Cyle, emma page and many other brands.
You are paid on volume and not IBOs. Just like a business, you are paid on turn over in your business based on your work.
CDs and workshop are there to help you to develop business ownership mentallity, retail skills and so on. Just like doing a new trade, you need training.
Go to the Amway Business center.
You do relise that all these other companies that you have joined all started because they saw how good an AMWAY business can work. You need some research, go to http://www.iteaminternational.net and got to the various link on the site.
thechaser on May 15th, 2010
thechaser
Like I mentioned in my previous post…no one in AMWAY will show me evidence of their income. – why don’t you ask someone IN AMWAY office what kind of cheques they pay out every week??? There are some pretty big bonues. I was at a function of about 4000 ppl and there were just over $500k worth of ADDITIONAL bonuses that were paid to some of the achiever in THAT ROOM alone. but I guess you were there to see the names scroll across the screen.
Diamonds and Emeralds will say anything to protect their business, (CD’s, books and seminars) just like any IBO will say their “doing really well” even though they have only been involved for three weeks and haven’t made a cent. When I say evidence, I mean tax returns, and books just like anyone would expect when entering a legitimate business – is that an opinion or a fact, have you spoke to a Diamond, or and emerald. So, if you have met someone who has some success in the first three weeks then you will withdraw these comments??
does AMWAY teach IBO’s to belittle or imply that they drink and take drugs like Daniel G implied? – No AMWAY makes and distribute products and PEOPLE said stupid things like that; just like you keep thinking that AMWAY is the same as an IBO.
Does it teach you not to take into account the genuine business expenses like phone calls and travelling ? – Once again, as an INDEPENDENT BUSINESS OWNER, is EACH person’s responsibility to take into account of expenses, these are things mentioned on some of our CDs that you are so against, as well as mentioned on some functions. But I guess once again you are not there to see or hear it so in your mind it couldn’t be true could it??
I didn’t tell anyone that they were wrong, I just asked why someone is told to belittle others because they won’t join their business. I don’t have people in Myer telling me to have a “drink or take another ecceie” because I didn’t buy anything. – the sole purpose of the sales person is to guide you to a product, you are fooled to think that they have any interest in you after the sale is made, in our business when you register then its a partnership; we are stuck as business partners. I ALWAYs tell prospects that this is not for everyone and just simply here to see if they are on the same page as I, feel free to say no!! So once again you comments are based on your opinion and not the entire truth. I don’t have a problem people want to keep having a job, this is a business and not everyone wants to be in business.
You were so quick to reply to me but never mentioned Daniel G rants, which tells me that also condone putting people down because they won’t waste their money and time on your “business”. – Daniel G may be ranting but there are some truth in what he said. I don’t believe in putting people down, I respect many profession and business owners. This is NOT the only vehicle to make money, but it is one of the cheapest to get started. If you can find a traditional business that cost less then $80 to start please let me know (well my other business didn’t cost me very much)
And are you saying that AMWAY doesn’t really work and that you had to start another business to make money, I was told that if you followed all the principles you could retire in two to five years. Was I being lied to? – Why do you have to turn every thing into a negative, do you have 2 jobs or 3 jobs; I doubt it because most people don’t have the ability to hold 3 or 4 jobs at a time. The fact that I have the ability to have 4 businesses running why only working a normal 40hr week is something that I have learnt through the AMWAY business about leveraging, time compounding, and giving people opportunities in the field they want and empower them to achieve them. These skills can be applied in any area and make money. I can walk away from any of those four businesses for the next 3 month and still pick up a trail or income because there are other people that is in partnership with me that have their own agendas and does not require me to be there to oversee them. Can you do that with your work?? Can you stop being a nurse or what ever you do and still make money? I don’t expect you to understand the concept of running a business because from the sound of things you have not had one, am I correct? As for retirement, I am retired. I can do what ever I want when I want, I run my schedule, I can not work tomorrow because I want to play with my kids, I can choose to start later or finish earlier because I want to. I can go play golf and then come back to see that one of my businesses have grown. Don’t be fooled to think that retirement is about sitting on a porch doing nothing. That is stupid and laziness.
As I have mentioned, I never said anyone was wrong, you accused me of saying that. I just made comment on some ones post. – apologise for wrongly accusing you; however you really need to check what you are saying and do some real research and and not google search.
Craig on May 21st, 2010
I first encountered Amway about a week ago when a friend said he was looking for “ambitious people”. Being curious, I asked him what it was about. Expecting it to be a business opportunity I agreed to come to a presentation. However he didn’t tell me what the name of the company was, nonetheless I was curious and went (even though alarm bells should have been ringing).
When I first entered the room I was greeted and introduced to men in suits and ties. Now, i’m a graduate who’s just about to return to university to do a PhD, when I mentioned this however the men in suits responded by passively belittling me and telling me how people with my kind of career cannot expect to make the big bucks. Confusing, I thought.
The presentation commenced and consisted of somebody talking about success, riches, and bizarrely how to live comfortably in my home town you need to be on an income of around 100,000K (which would put you in the top 1% of earners in the country!). The most strange part about the presentation I found however is that there was not one single mention of business technique, how to sell things, find new customers etc etc, only about success and riches. Very odd for a business presentation.
After the presentation I had the opportunity to talk and quiz people. Not one person could tell me how much stock they were shifting, and most people tended to just “delegate” their selling power to other people, aka they’ve recruited some other poor gullible sod.
The people of this company seem fixated with money and correlate money with success, however i’m happy on the income I have and I consider myself pretty successful academically.
Finally, the product range is vastly overpriced and the bonus scheme derisory. I mean, £860 for a set of modest pans? Overpriced vitamin pills which I would not with good conscience be able to sell (I don’t believe in pushing nutritional pills, I believe they’re an over-priced fad and no substitute for a well balanced diet). To top it all off, you only start making any significant returns when you’ve recruited more people and are shifting a lot of this over-priced stuff!
My conclusion is, although Amway is not a scam, it is a scheme thought up by in order to brainwash gullible people into becoming loyal members and parting with their money.
Jenny Dell on May 24th, 2010
I have been a member of Amway since 2000.
No, I have not made untold riches and yes, I did find the initiation process slightly creepy.
I could not make myself be someone I wasn’t. After attending one of their highly hyped rallies, I decided that I didn’t want to be a part of all that. Instead I have concentrated on buying and trying their products and some of their products, especially their cleaning products and some of their basic skin care and makeup ranges are very high performance and great value.
By the same token some of their products are over priced too. This includes the nutriway range, icook. The highest earning products are at the front of the catalogue(and probably the worst value for the ordinary consumer).
I mostly buy for myself and my relatives and friends as some of the products are well worth the cost, just as others are not. I stay well away from all the hype and fortunately we moved away from the area and the people who first introduced us to amway.
Brian on May 28th, 2010
About a month ago, my wife went along with a friend to an “exciting event” on the Gold Coast at Bond University (thats all her friend would tell her). She got sucked in with all the flashy talk and promises of earning big bucks and never having to work a normal job again.
She came home and started telling me how friendly everyone was and how they would all support her in the business if she chose to take it on. The funny thing is, when I asked her about what the business was, she couldnt really tell me! This started to worry her. She told me that she was so overwhelmed by everyone wanting to shake her hand or hug her and to tell her how successfult they had been, she didnt really think to ask the question! She described it as walking into a tornado and coming out the other side not really knowing what had happened!
However, they during all this, they did manage to get her to fill out a membership form as on the proviso that they held off on processing it until she came home and spoke to me. We had a discussion and I thought it sounded like a good idea, but as we had to “buy” into it, I suggested she hold off until we found out more information about it.
About 2 days later she discovered that $250.00 odd dollars had been debited from her account by Amway! She couldnt figure out what was going on as the meeting she went to was for “Network 21″. Anyway, we soon discovered that it was a part of Amway.
We were quite upset that this company had taken our money, even after my wife had requested them to hold off until she spoke to me. The long and short of it is that after 4 weeks, we are still waiting on a refund and we still cant get an asnwer from Amway about when it will actually happen!
This experience has left a really bad impression of the company and the way it works. They were EXTREMELY fast to take our money, but take their time when it comes to giving it back! We are a struggling family and desperatly need the money back but what do Amway or Network 21 care? They are there to make their millions, and it doesnt seem to matter who they step on to get there!
Beware people! From what I’ve seen they are their own religion based on money and no matter how much they say they are here to help you, they will drop you like a hot potato the minute you have an issue!
thechaser on May 30th, 2010
Brian;
Very sorry to hear your experience; I can assure you that is NOT how AMWAY workss; its may be how these particular people choose to operate but certainly not the business.
You should ring head office and ask for refund and explain them the situation. Their number is 1800 454 647 and ask for business relations.
Just to clarify, by Amway code of conduct, relationship between AMWAY and IBOs or N21 MUST be mentioned during the plan. I will be very surprised if Amway knows about this. If you report it they will send someone there to audit the plan, and if its not up to scratch they will close it down as they have done to many others and the Diamond in that workshop will be contacted.
i am surprised that it even cost you that much, rego is $80 plus some optional products, you can check it out on the http://www.amway.com.au website.
I have take products back to the center and they have given me refund in a few days. if you have gone to the Bond uni for the work shop then you are probably not too far away from the Loganhom Business Center. Go there with your pack you should have received by now and return it and explain to them the situation.
Its a 90 day 100% money back quarantee so they should not have any issue returning your the money.
And if you have not received any products then I can assure you that most of the money has being spent on N21 so they are the people that you need to speak to.
Joecool on June 2nd, 2010
TheChaser,
Maybe it’s not how Amway works, but perhaps IT MIGHT BE how Network 21 works.
Brian, Network 21 is a for profit company that sells cds, support materials and seminars to Amway IBOs and they and associated IBOs make tons of money off IBOs, regardless of the IBO results. You should make a formal complaint against Network 21 with your local better business bureau.
thechaser on June 2nd, 2010
Joecool:
WE agree on something… note my last paragraph in my comment
theproducts on June 8th, 2010
Hi all,
I am neither a distributor nor a completely neutral party..
I only have a point to make in relation to to this company’s products..
A few years ago my haemoglobin a gone down severely (to about 6.5) and my doctor was very concerned and gave me some prescribed iron tablets which did not help much and got my iron level upto about an 8 and i used to feel fatigued (and pukish) after taking these tablets..
However, my freind then recommended me the nutriway iron product and my doctor was surprised to see my iron level climb to a healthy 13 so quickly.. she even asked me what I had been taking because it worked like magic..
After that, I had a bit more faith and tried some of the others from glister to artistry for my skin (no doubt a bit more pricey) but boy did it do wonders for my skin and teeth.. I was quite amazed.. I still havnlt joined though cuz i can get them at the dicsounted price from my friend.. but just for those that beleive it to be too expensive.. you have really got to try it to beleive how good it is!!
thechaser on June 8th, 2010
Hey, theproducts:
Great to have that feed back on the products.. a lot of people forget that it is a product business, and there are plenty of people that has had benefits from the products.. and we DONT all have to be in the business actively and just because you are not in business with us does not make you a loser like what some people may say thats what we AMWAY distributors think…
Great testimony, Thank you
People needs to know that there is a difference between the nurtriway extracts from the norma extracts that is in the cheaper products…
Joecool on June 9th, 2010
Maybe someone can post bonafide unbiased studies that show how some of these products vary. A pharmacist explained to me how some of these vitamins are absorbed by the body and said that in many cases, the only difference between Amway (Nutrilte/Nutriway) vitamins and the cheapers ones was the higher price charged by Amway.
For another example, Amway enthusiasts like to cite “phyto nutrients” in Amway vitamins, but you can get phhyo nutrients by simply eating fruits and the skin on the fruit. You don’t necessarily need expensive vitamin supplements.
Passer-by on June 9th, 2010
My fiance and I recently signed up. We signed up through my parents, whose uplines are actually diamonds – and have been for years (since before I was born). I’m 18, btw.
I knew it was Amway, from the beginning. And the diamond upline, Brian, told us it was Amway from the beginning.
I’ll admit, I was not keen. At all. Mainly because I’m scared of sharing about it with people, as I know people have preconceived ideas. However, my fiance was keen as pie. I sat in the car making problems with it the whole way to him dropping me at my house. My parents did it for a while when I was younger. Then they never renewed their membership. So they decided to do it again this year, as they missed the product. I come from a big family, so the concentrated products were great for us. My grandparents, who don’t do the business at all, and won’t, absolutely SWEAR by SA8. As do all their daughters.
At our info evenings, it is made sure that people know it is Amway.
I think it’s important to do your research. I didn’t, but I’ve grown up around it.
My fiance actually began using Double X yesterday – he has history of quite big energy issues, and he thought it was in his mind that he suddenly had this excessive energy.
I definitely think this: do your research. Try the products. And don’t bag others for their opinions.
I have been using the Artistry foundation, and the Beauty Cycle eyeliner, mascara and foundation, and have found it brilliant.
Also, my parents’ upline has said to people to NOT quit your job and to still work hard at your careers. My fiance has just become a chef, and is very talented.
I am training to be a teacher. We just both are happy to earn an extra grand or so a month.
We don’t live together yet, but we are preparing for married life, and finances come into this for us. An extra grand a month would allow us to purchase a small house. And that’s all we’d like right now.
We definitely claim to be born-again Christians, and I don’t think that that makes us not to be trusted, as said in previous posts. For us, it makes it super important to be honest and have integrity.
We joined last month and we are already at the first “level” – 3%, and we did that without anyone under us. We just changed the way we bought our usual expenses. (I’ll admit, I never wore makeup before, as I only ever liked Artistry, but didn’t know where to order it from… so I always used my Mum’s.) But my fiance’s mother, who is a complete “Amway’s a scam” person, absolutely loves the disinfectant we bought through the business.
She’s also in love with the makeup I wear now. (Years ago she bought the Artistry foundation, and won’t wear anything but. So she’s been ordering more makeup she likes.)
thechaser on June 10th, 2010
great to have some different perspective Passer-by
it really shows that there are still people out there building a honest business as it should.
You must be in the Levy team??
thechaser on June 10th, 2010
or the Potts?
Sol on June 16th, 2010
I was recently approached by someone in my workplace about a “business opportunity”, which after about an hour of discussion about products and opportunities was finally revealed to be Amway. I will not be joining it for a very simple reason. I believe its unethical to make money “passively” just because one is lucky enough to find someone with a similar lack of ethics who will work downline from you with the hope of having someone work downline from them. If it were honestly presented as a means of manipulating people in order to make money I might not really care, but its nauseating that its dressed up as some sort of altruistic selfless means of helping other people. There’s no way I could live in such a split minded way all the time, its just schizophrenic in the manner of most cults (yes I believe its a form of cult).
Joecool on June 16th, 2010
I did my research. Amway says the average active IBO earns only $115 a month. Amway’s products generally costs much more than similar products that can be bought
at WalMart or Costco. The Amway opportunity has “leach” organizations that sell training materials to IBOs. The training material is mostly ineffective and causes most IBOs to suffer a loss in the Amway business.
I’m glad I did my research!
Dinsdale on June 17th, 2010
All this sounds so familiar! In 1993 or thereabouts a woaman I worked with got involved in this. At first, and with only limited information, I thought ‘great idea. Build up a business and reap the rewards.’ Then this lady and her husband invited me to a presentation at their home with a view to my involvement. I thought ‘why not?’ and went along. Several other people were there, including a casual acquantance of mine. My work colleague’s husband and a friend of his were conducting the presentation, which started off with ‘how would you like to be rich’ and ‘what car would you buy if you had the money’ and other such talk. This is when the alarm bells started to ring, but not wishing to be rude I thought ‘No. Stay a while and give it a chance.’ So I did, to be confronted with more ‘how would you like to be rich’ stuff and, after being at this presentation for twenty minutes now, still not so much of a hint at what all this entails. Then the motivational stuff started. I dont have to go into details but as I say what I read above sounds all too familiar.
By the time it came round to exactly how I was supposed to make all this money I had had enough and just wanted to leave, and at the end of the presentation I got into a conversation with the casual acquantance I met there. It turned out that she too had seen through all the glib, but we were apparently the only two.
My work colleague and her huaband carried on however, and when I tried to criticise or perhaps make her think again I was met with such things as ‘you’re being negative’ and other comments which sounded like they were direct quotes from a book. All attemps at making her see reason and that she was merely involved in a scam were met with similar replies, and this is when I started to compare this thing with a religious cult.
In the end I thought ‘just leave her to it. It’s obvious she is in this thing so deep that no amount of persuasion will work.’
I no longer work for the same company, and happened to meet her and her huaband in the street a couple of years back. It turned out that they are no longer involved as they ‘didn’t make as much money as they were hoping.’ I was tempted to say ‘told you so’ but I decided to give this a miss. The fact that they adittedly belatedly relised what a scam it was was enough for me.
thechaser on June 20th, 2010
wow, i guess if you bump into a guy who is actually making money in a business sense like myself you will think this is all legit… i doubt it; most of you would probably think that I am a big con… See the point is that most of people writing these comment are still WORKING for someone. Where as I have the liberty of planning my week according to my schedule and around what ever else I have on. And if I don’t do some things one day, the team is still doing something. but hey, I am talking to the uncoverted aren’t I.
Most of you have done such an extensive research on this subject by researching the net and not actually doing the business. That like criticising footballer when you couldn’t even play the game. Dumb idea.
You buy, you sell and you keep the difference; you put a team together and you buy and you sell and you share the profits. Big deal… if you can’t see that is a typical business transaction then I can’t help you.
Joecool on June 22nd, 2010
TheChaser, if only it were that simple. For many, it is “buy from yourself” and pretend to be welathy beyond most people’s dreams. Then you use that image to sell people standing orders and functions and claim that they are the key to success in Amway. That way you profit even if all your downline lose their homes and their shirts.
thechaser on June 24th, 2010
joecool:
north america is the first market to have compulsory 50pv customer volume and the many countries has follow suit. Australia is no different.
i have heard recent teachings from BWW, WWDB, LTD and many other Yager organisations and N21 that promotes retail.
It may not be the case 10 years ago but it certainly it happen now.
I agree if all you have is ‘buy yourself’ model the IBOs WILL make a loss from the business sense as their incoming is not supporting their tools; however the loss is a lot less then a traditional business that is not financed or managed correctly.
It takes a relatively less effort to cover the cost of running a networking business. Ask anyone who has been in a Traditional business and they will tell you the cost is easily 10 fold.
The problem is that most IBOs are NOT willing to do some of the business basics and therefore run into problems and compounded with most IBOs are sponsored by other IBOs that are NOT business owners YET. but we can all learn.
The point is, if my IBOs are NOT making money then they wont stick around and most likely stop ordering; so as an upline where is MY benefit in that happening???
Anna on June 24th, 2010
Although I admit I have very little knowledge of Amway business structure, what is required etc (Only what I have learnt from reading some of these posts) I would like to add something about has been bothering me recently.
I have a friend who recently joined the amway business. I was happy for her as she recently left her job and seemed to genuinely believe it was a great opportunity. She said that it was possible to make millions which raised alarm bells for me, but I had not previously heard of the company and didn’t feel I was in a position to any judgement about what it involved.
So a few weeks after she mentioned this to me I began receiving countless texts, emails and facebook invitations to come to these ‘amazing’ meetings with ‘great speakers’ and ‘incredible opportunities’ and ‘great products’. I have no absolutely no interest in this and am beginning to feel harrassed by it.
So I think that although Amway may be a good opportunity for some its the harrassment and pressure for the rest of us that sucks. It has got the point now where it has seriously damaged my friendship with this person and thats upsetting to me.
I found myself wanting to know more about this scheme and how its managed to get such a hold of my friend which is how I ended up here. Thanks for the blog Luke and the people that have contributed, I think I understand it all a lot better now
Joecool on June 25th, 2010
TheChaser: i have heard recent teachings from BWW, WWDB, LTD and many other Yager organisations and N21 that promotes retail.
Joecool: I also heard retail from the stage, but in our smaller group meetings, we were told that selling was not important, sponsoring was.
thechaser on June 25th, 2010
Joecool.. once again you are basing on a entire business model based on your experience. for as long as we are on that track we will never agree on anything..
our group do XS event every 2nd week or at least once a month, making retail profit.
Girls does emma page party and make easily $1000pm a month as a 9% or 12%… yes a 9 percent.. 1000 pv group of 4-6 people doing 300PV circle ..
These are fact and with 50pv COMPULSORY Retail in North America that is a min profit of $100 retail profit most month.. that covers the tools cost.. and with some extra effort its not hard to break even.
We will have different opinions because I am standing on the side where I AM making money and you are still standing on the side that you are NOT making money out of the same business we are both in.. so its a bit hard to say that we are entirely comparing apple to apple are we.
Joanna on June 26th, 2010
The Chaser,
It must be nice to be able to work when you want, and yes I do still work for someone, and my investments work for me.
Is everyone who you signed up to join your buisness able to chose when they work?
How many people do you need in your group so that you have your lifestyle that you brag about?
and how many of those people that you signed up will get to your level?
and of the ones that don’t, will it be their fault?
Joanna.
Joanna on June 26th, 2010
Hi Anna,
I too lost a friend to AMWAY, I hope that one day we can be friends again but it won’t happen until she has realised that what her sponor’s told her was not true (that she could retire in two years). There is a clip on youtube that everyone should watch. Where Birdie Yager (wife of the biggest AMWAY distributor) says that Jesus Christ came to her and gave her some extra verse’s of the bible about how great they themselves were. These people will feed you that much crap to sell stuff that you use everyday, and you can buy it from anywhere, coles, woolworths or the corner shop. (and cheaper).
Regards,
Joanna.
Joecool on June 27th, 2010
TheChaser,
Let’s say there was a company that sold Vacuum cleaners. Out of 1000 salesmen, 500 were very ethical and up and up. The other 500 scammed and cheated people. What do you suppose would happen to that vacuum cleaner company? They would get such a bad reputation and possibly come under government scrutiny.
Amway, at least in the US has such a bad reputation, that sales are shrinking, people basically have to be tricked into attending meetings, and holding a group together is near impossible.
Now you may be one of the few IBOs who are trying to run a clean Amway business. But you will have trubulence for several reasons. For one, many of your Amway brethren are unethical and ruin the reputation, even for good IBOs. Secondly, the compensation for Amway is unfair and nearly gurantees that new IBOs end up getting the dirty end of the stick. Factor in the tools expenses and the unfair compensation and it’s easy to see why most IBO operate at a loss. When you add up the fact that many Amway products are not priced to compete with the Walmarts of the world, you have a nearly impossible chance of long term sustainable success in Amway.
Joecool on June 27th, 2010
The Chaser, the 50 PV rule is self declared and I doubt that many IBO actually sell the minimum PV. Many IBOs claim they buy from themselves almost exclusively. They are taught this. My upline told me quite plainly to ignore the retail sales rule and focus on sponsoring.
While the diamonds will never tell people from stage to ignore the sales rule, the teaching will filter down to rank and file IBOs from the platinums. The leaders say the right things from stage, but then change the teachings in smaller meetings taught by platinums. Sort of a bait and switch scam. At least it was common in my group.
(WWDB). There is evidence that the same stuff is taught today, despite the denials of some Amway suppporters.
thechaser on June 27th, 2010
The Chaser,
It must be nice to be able to work when you want, and yes I do still work for someone, and my investments work for me.
Is everyone who you signed up to join your buisness able to chose when they work? – why wouldn’t they, its their business, i ask them when they can work and we work around it. Some people want to work 2 nights a week and some 4.. there is nothing to stop them. Thats why we are call independent business owners. We choose when to work at our own pace… whats your point?
How many people do you need in your group so that you have your lifestyle that you brag about? – Let see, what kind of lifestyle do I brag about, is it the life that I choose when to work and have the freedom to not work and still be paid some money for the efforts I put in a while ago or is it the lifestyle of the thousands of $$$ that I have never claim that I have. Well to have the lifestyle that I have in the first case I need 0 person signed up as its my own business and with party plans average party is about 190 – 220 retail profit + bonuses and that takes abou 2 hours including some travel time. So I guess in that case I have complete freedom of when I do work. As for making bonuses, I can only tell you with my experiece is about 30 – 45 people and some are just wholesale customers and some are making money. They all choose to be at a level where they are comfortable at. What about you, when do you choose to work… or do you have a choice?
and how many of those people that you signed up will get to your level? – to the first level of making money because they are actively doing some party plan, everyone can reach that level, but do they all choose to.. NO.. so does that mean I am scamming them??? Hardly.
and of the ones that don’t, will it be their fault? – Of course not, what kind of internet garbage have you being reading???
Joanna.
neither You or joecool has been expose to people that though I have know about but have never agreed with their ethics so it doesn’t matter what you throw at me it wont bother me as I have already seen fruits first hand and understand how to run an ethical business.
Most people who have not be being running an ethical business are no longer around or have trouble holding the group together.. out group may not be huge but its tight. We have fun and we hang out and we make money together. So I really don’t see the problem in that. No one has lost their shirts over it.
Seriously Joanna for you to have to ask me how many people I need have to have the lifestyle that I have shows that you have not a clue what the marketing plan was about and that you did NOT lose a friend to AMWAY but that you have decided to lose a friend because you choose to criticise her for a decision that she wants to make. Respect that and move on.
I have friend who are very very CLOSE to me and still is have openly said that ‘they hated AMWAY’ and that they have been there and don’t want to do it again ‘; we are still very good friend and they respect me for they way I conduct my business and have never pushed them and have respected their decisions. I have done my part to make sure they understand that not all us amway ibos are like the one they have experienced.
Please guys, if you want to criticise my business bring something new to the table; nothing you guys are claiming is anything new and in fact Joecool you have not even been in business for extended periods of time so I doubt that you are keeping up with the latest.
This is not to dismiss your experience, they are completely true as they happened to you.
However, when ever i speak to a prospect i always make sure they understand that they are part of Our bigger team and WE as a team are CONTRACTED to AMway to conduct a business that utilises their services and products. Most people take 2 to 3 meeting before I sign them up as they are completely comfortable with everything We do
Joecool on June 30th, 2010
TheChaser,
If I burned my hand on a stove 10 years ago, does that mean I can no longer warn people that touching a hot stove is bad for your hand? What if I never burned my hand on a stove, does that mean I cannot warn children that touching a hot stove in dangerous?
Here’s a link to an IBO blog:
http://expeditionoftruths.com/tag/wwdb/
Let’s see, he talks about buying a home in cash on several occasions, and he said that the world has a 60% divorce rate compared to 2% for WWDB IBOs and he said he got a big tax refund this year, but did not lose money in Amway.
Here we have all the same crap being taught by some of the same leaders I saw 12 years ago. What’s more, there are Amway advocates who comment on this blog who still deny that abuse goes on, and still try to claim that anyone with a dated experience cannot give valid comments, yet there it is. This IBO is speaking right out of the WWDB playbook and is being taught the same crap that I heard 12 years ago. Why is that?
You might do thing differently and I commend you for that, but when these kinds of abuses occur in the same company you deal with, then their transgressions also become yours.
thechaser on June 30th, 2010
Point taken..
However, hot stove don’t change; IBOs and experience of each IBO can differ because of the organisation that they are in.
Even with in the same LOS you will find different conducts.
I personally WAS in a group of BYO and don’t retail group by LOS but I chose to seek out advice because I wanted my group to be profitable.
The problem I see is that yes there are crap going on however that is IBOs doing the wrong thing not the AMWAY Corporation.
Amway Australia is actively doing E training for new IBOs, given incentives for IBOs to retail, providing online support for IBOs to talk to nutritionist, beauty therapist, natropath and many others.
What you experienced does not excuse what they have done however it does not mean what is happening now is not better or perhaps different.
Yes there will be good groups and some crap. However, if there are good experiences and people are having success do you honestly think they would bother coming online and debate with your experience that happened 10 years ago or joanna’s experience of ‘online research’.
There will always be more people whinging then saying good because its all about freedom of speech. Most people only write about complaints and not about praises.
This is not just about this industry its across anything. However in this industry people tend to like to blame a company rather then taking a hard look at whether as an independent business owner whether he/she has taken every step necessary to run a successful business.
Run it with integrity and the group will stay, if is all smokes and mirrors it aint gonna stick.
Joecool on July 1st, 2010
TheChaser, you are right, some people change and IBOs and the process may change. But it looks like WWDB has not changed. Greg Duncan is still teaching the IBO whose blog I linked to. They are still being taught that they will buy homes in cash and that WWDB related people never get divorced. That IBO is so brainwashed that they deny that greg duncan was in bankrupt court and they ignore that wolgamott might be divircing.
While some thing change, it looks like WWDB, a major LOS has not. In fact over 14 years, how many IBOs or people have been influenced by these leaders? Quite possibly hundreds of thousands of people have been affected by the poor teaching of these leaders. I have seen similar stuff spouted by IBOs from LTD, BWW and some others.
This could extend to bad teaching on millions of IBOs over the years and that IS a problem.
lj34 on July 7th, 2010
3 words- what a joke. Presentation was horrible, no one could answer any real questions and the minute you start talking about education, they start becoming suspicious of you.
mike d on July 7th, 2010
My parent s got me into amway in 1991.I was 18, fresh out of highschool, no job but a lot of dreams. SOme flashy peole from the posh part of town came and sold my retired paretns the dream. I got very very excited for them and for myself. so did tbey. 5 years later with over a hundred downlines signed up, my parents had only a garage full of protein poweder and car alamrs and loooot of time and money that could have been spent on something that actually worked.
positives of the experience- stopped my dad from getting post retirement blues.
- met a lot of freindly up- beat people
Negatives- 5 years of weekends and weeknights gone
- still nagging feeling of guilt that i’ve thrown away the dream, and am a ‘quitter’
- still got hangover of being told to treat everyone as a prospect and people negative to amyway as negative in general and to be avoided.
thechaser on July 10th, 2010
mike:
if you have over 100 IBOs in the group then either they are not buying or its not structured correctly or they are not your personal sponsored IBOs which means you won’t get credit for.
your experience is as real as you have experienced it however the business has moved on 19 years from then do you not think there may be some changes.
For starters, all shipping in online and no upline ordering hence no over stock.
2ndly, i don’t remember spending every weekend building the business.
Why would you feel guilty, there are many ways of achieving your dream, building a business is just one of them. The heart of the business is about entrepreneurship, if you have a dream go after it. But if its financial and time, then its hard to find in a job situation. Building a business can as long as you build it correctly and learn to leverage.
lj34, you must have met some uneducated IBOs and only think this is the only business they can build.
Most diamonds know that there are many people who are in business can make more money then a diamond but not many business have a low start up cost.
what do you classify as a REAL question??
Joecool on July 13th, 2010
One thing that really hasn’t changed about the Amway business is how uplines exploit their downlines by promoting and selling them tools that don’t work. Granted, not all upline are as pushy about it as some others, but in general, most LOSs will push the tools, and most US LOSs are not seeing much success, thus the lack of growth in the US. Basically, whatever new platinums or higher that emerge, are likely just displacing the ones who no longer qualify.
Joecool on July 13th, 2010
Go Diamond and go bankrupt?
http://amwayblog.com/wwdb-brad-duncan-talks-about-his-brother-greg-duncans-bankruptcy/
Unbiased on July 15th, 2010
The A2K, Amway, IDA whatever thing is essentially a Sales Organisation. (A2K is a web site, Amway is a manufacturer, IDA is a sales facilitation organisation -etc.) As in most sales organisations, the ones who are good at it get promoted, make money, teach others. It’s a great way to learn to Sell – if that’s what you are and want to do. Most of the problems arise because most people aren’t natural ‘sales’ people (I’m an accountant), and don’t learn the art well, and because they are introduced by Newbies – who don’t know how to explain it properly, haven’t done it themselves yet, and over promise massively. Sadly – this results in lots of people getting hurt and burnt after putting their enthusiam into it – which is the only (but significant) objection I have to the whole shindig. Personally – no I’m not comfortable in a sales team, but that’s ‘cos I’m not talented that way. I have learned a lot about selling from them, have come to really appreciate people, including some of my employees who have that gift, used it to train some of my front line staff, and recommend it to anyone who wants to learn about selling. People with the sales gift who are willing to learn, work hard, and keep at it, invest money and treat it as a business can make a good business this way, and many have. However, if someone is trying to lure you with this as a get rich quick dream scheme, that it aint. Say absolutely NO smartly – and then possibly go and find one of the people who’s really made money at it to be your sponsor and teach you well.
Me – I’m still an accountant, but I am a member and will recommend anyone who really has these talents to treat it seriously – like you would go into any small business or franchising operation.
Incidently – if you want to see the business area where most people really get hurt, have a look at franchising.
I found the range of open comments on this site good. Well done.
Cheers – Unbiased
Peter on July 30th, 2010
Hi My wife and i had a 10 minute meeting with our former pastor who has been with I Commerce for 3 years he has invited us along to a meeting on monday and we are going to go however we are going with the pre concieved notion that people have made alot f money with this but recognise that we have to start slowly so we they say that you could be earning 50 to 60 k in 12 to 18 months that is earning potential but all we want to start off with is a few extra bucks a month and then work our way up so we arent expecting a whole lot from it but we arent expecting it to be a scam either
Joecool on July 31st, 2010
Hi Peter,
You may want to note that if you see the Amway plan, you will be exposed to 2 businesses, The Amway business and a business support materials (tools) business.
The tools are allegedly designed to assist you in Amway, but sadly, the tools are usually the reason most people end up losing money in the Amway opportunity.
Just be aware of that.
heather on August 6th, 2010
i joined amway about 9 year ago – i joined up for about $100 AUD and was left with $20 in my bank account – i was 30, broke, hated my career, hated myself, had no real friends: ie the ones that would lend me money or help me move house, i was in a dead end relationship with yet another guy with a closet drug/alcohol addiction. after being shown the biz – i was annoyed that noone had ever introduced me to the concept 20 years before. it is very simple and gives ‘normal’ people the chance at wealth. i soon realised after listening to some of the ‘motivational’ tapes – that my self esteem and finance ‘selves’ werent in alignment to become successful. i listened and read heaps of their material – met great mentors – who were happy to be weatlthy and free and mentor others and were driven enough – to help get out of their own way.
i didnt work the business as such, for about 4 years and $5000? over that time i worked the ida ‘success building’ program which for an outlay of great amway products that me and my family wanted to use and i listened, dreamed and affirmed the life. i remember going to my job with disabled people to wipe asses and dribble – god bless them: and on my 45 min drive to work: affirming – i have a fantastic life, filled with adventure, great people and every way in every way im getting better and better.
i met my soulmate – a business man who allowed me to show him the biz and encouraged me to follow my dreams – even though he wasnt interested personally in joining.
well 9 years or so later: we are married, we have never had an argument and are running 3 successful businesses with a turnover of $500,000 p.a AUD. plus a fantastic lifestyle involving yachts and wineries and day spa. now here is the crunch bit – i am ready to join amway for the passive income and do it right this time! im not afraid of wealth anymore – i am among the 1% of people who have identified what they want, have it written down and love a challenge – the only ‘problem’ most amwayer’s make is trying to give everyone a go and building a successful biz simply isnt for everyone – you have to be prepared mostly to get out of you own way. some of my goals are to enjoy the life i have left, help others become the best they can and hopefully make a difference – even if that means the amway cheques fund more womens hospitals in ethiopia and the reach foundation and insight here in oz. anyway those of you who dont want to make the journey – there’s nothing wrong with that either – peace, love, happiness heather
Joecool on August 11th, 2010
The problem with Amway and the way some groups run Amway is simple. They may verbalize selling to customers, but few IBOs actually do it. Sure there me be some sales to a few friends and relatives, but in order to have a sustainable business, you need many repeat customers. It is why the WalMarts of the world are wildy successful. They sell products cheap so people continue to come back for more. In Amway, there aren’t that many loyal customers, relative to the sales force (IBOs). The main consumer group of Amway goods are the IBOs themselves. And because of the poor retention rate of IBOs, you have a poor retention rate of customers. If even 5 or 10% of former IBOs were loyal customers of Amway, Amway sales would probably be triple of what it is now.
Then you factor in the standing orders, functions and other materials that are supposed to help IBOs, but in reality just drain away resources from IBOs. It is why so many IBOs quit and become negative about Amway. The tools and the negative holier than thou attitude of some of the Amway leaders.
Some of these leaders told blatant lies in the past and simply revied history to try and erase the lies and the hypocrisy, such as leaders who taught that Amway saves marriages, only to end up divorcing their own spouses later.
And teh shameless manner in which it is done is appalling.
rangas07 on August 11th, 2010
this website is a omplete waste of the world wide webs space, its a business you sell products and make money, people who shop can get a portion of their monthly, weekly shopping from Amway and its products that are supperior in value, I myself was thinking of joining, now I know I will join, because if this is the negative side to amway shit sign me up IDA I’m not sure about, but Network 21 you don’t have to hold products or buy products to sell products this luke guy seems to me like he is just looking for some attention
Joecool on August 14th, 2010
“its a business you sell products and make money”
Then how come so few IBOs sell products and how come even fewer make any nmoney?
Jay on August 19th, 2010
Amway is hitting a few of my friends at the moment, they come home talking about all the rich people there and how they can be making thousands a month and they love mentioning how Coca-cola is involved. It’s actually getting pretty creepy I think they want me to join. I hate the idea of these kinds of things it makes me feel dirty just hearing about the whole scheme.
thechaser on August 19th, 2010
Jay, What scheme are you referring to. The sell something and make some money scheme or the find someone to work with you and profit share the volume.
Let me guess you work someone??? Have you ever stop to think that if you are paid $60K a year and your employer is not producing at least $150K a year out of your time you may actually NOT be employed. So hang on that legal right because he is making money out of your efforts.
Let get a few things straight. AMWAY is not hitting your friend. the IBOs are. Amway just source, manufacture products and ship it to you. IBOs do the movement and the promotion.
Wake up and do some research before making an obviously unfounded idea/comment about how the ‘scheme’ works.
How do you think people like Richard Branson makes his thousands a minute??? By working in a job or perhaps taking a small cent of everyone who buys a airplane ticket or any of his 250 businesses that he owns
Joecool on August 20th, 2010
Right, Amway makes money from the products but the upline diamonds make even more money, percentage wise by selling training to their downline. The scheme part is that the training does not work and the training does not lead to success for the vast majority of everyone involved.
committed2myself on August 20th, 2010
I’m with Amway! I’m proud of it!!! It’s my own business, my own future, my own time, my own rewards and my own freedom! Being in the business for a bit longer than 5 min I’m now making more money than my uplines! You ask me why? I tell you – because the training and mentoring work!!!! Because I am teachable! Because I’m motivated!
I’d kindly ask all unhappy people to stop complaining about their lives and take a lead! Dont say that training doesn’t work! Try harder! Its easier to give in, of course!
Joecool on August 24th, 2010
If the training were so good, why is only a fraction of 1% of IBOs able to reach platinum? Certainly more than 1% of people are able to finish medical school and other difficult endeavros. Why can’t more than .5% of IBOs reach platinum? The training and the systems do not work. Also, the systems drain money from the IBOs and it is why most IBOs end up with a loss.
thechaser on August 24th, 2010
joecool, for starters you can not compare building a business to finishing school. they are two completely two separate endeavour. One requires business skills and one require knowledge.
Its like saying why can’t a sprinter run a marathon. That remark shows that till now you still don’t understand the original intention of an AMWAY business or in fact any direct selling business.
The training and system do not work because most people DONT apply the skills they learn. Its much more than just building a AMWAY business.
As I have mentioned many time, the skill I have learnt from building an AMWAY business has enable me to build 4 other successful ventures using the similar principles
Joecool on August 25th, 2010
Why do Amway people always compare the training to college or the gym? The same can be said of Amway defenders, always making ridiculous comparisons because they too don’t understand how their own system works.
What skills do IBOs learn? They learn to disregard facts, they learn to lie, they learn to deceive prospects. They learn to dodge straighforward questions. The sysem doesn’t work and the facts suppport my position, not yours.
While some people can succeed in Amway, the vast majority do not. It’s not because of a lack of applied skills, it’s because the system doesn’t work and the compensation plan that Amway uses, requuires layer of downlines in order for one to reach the higher levels. Simple math supports my claim as well.
thechaser on August 25th, 2010
wow, Joecool you are really scarred from your past experiences.
Fact, a new diamond have qualified last year with about 25 to 30 in each of his 6 legs..
All very profitable and all happy with products and the method used.
We can debate till our face are blue on whether your fact are correct or mine, but the simple conclusion is that I have the fruit on the tree and have see how people have learnt and changed. I have only just got off the phone with a new IBO who just LOVEs the books and the association.
He know there is money to be made in functions and his response to that was ‘so does Tony Robbins, big deal’.
there is a currently platinum that has 10 downline. Heavy retailers as they move espring like a normal business. Massive database and repeat customers.
There is also a current ruby that runs 6000pv personal circles as she has established a huge Artistry client base.
I can go on and on.. just last month 5 girls made over 3000 in just Emma Page along… Retail profit plus some bonuses.
thats only with about 4 in the team.
The fact is that you have had an experience that is different to mine. I run it like a business and teach all new IBOs to treat it like a business. If you don’t want to run it like a business and whinge about the system or how the compensation plan is so poor and it relies on other people to make you money then you have obviously missed the point of the plan.
besides, what fact are you talking about that does not support the examples that i have just given you.
Joecool on August 26th, 2010
Thechaser, as I said in the past, there are some IBOs who focus on selling and I believe you are one of them. But when there are major groups out there who still teach buy from yourself and other unethical practices, you are talking about literally hundreds of thousands of IBOs who might be getting bad advice.
The accreditation program did not work in the big picture and there are still groups that push tools, teach lies and other crap. They fly under the radar because Amway doesn’t have any apparent measures to stop abuse.
It may seem unfair to you, but I believe there are more abusive upline than good ones. Remember I am from the US and not from where you are. Furthermore, I believe that the uplines who lied and cheated during my time simply revised their own history (nobody profits from tools) and were never made to account for the lies and the financial ruin they headped on their downline. They not only escaped accountability, they have never acknowoledged or appologized for their lies. I believe they are getting some payback due to the freely available information on the internet and that is why I keep blogging. I have good reason to believe that the uplines who gave me bad advice are doing the same thing now, 12 years later. I see it directly from IBOs who are currently downline from the same leaders I had. One of these downline runs his own blog and based on what he is posting, the same crap is taught today, that was taught back when I was an IBO.
Joecool on August 27th, 2010
Let’s make an analogy to the Amway business. Say you owned a company that sold widgets. Your company had billions in sales. Let’s say half of your sales force were honest, upfront and stand up guys. The other half of your sales force were liars, cheaters, crooks and used unethical means to sell goods.
After a while, what will happen to the reputation of the widget company? What has happened to Amway?
lobo on September 1st, 2010
Was approached and got to a meeting. Did not like it. Rather have a free mind and no pressure and no meetings and no coaching and no support system.
Might have been a nice idea once, but the mechanism makes the meetings like that go on for ever with new people wanting to get rich. What a suffering.
I did my job and did not nurture it. Like an ant colony that never stops with new beleivers joining all the time.
Just kill it.
I support free and spiritual people who can make choises. If you have your own business you can make your own decisions you are the boss.
In Amway – try to add another product or reorganize. You can’t.
You are not free. And to the extent you actually build the network and do not work – others are, many times over. Trying to make the dream come true.
You may get away but others don´t. There has to be more people that don´t get away because the margin is so poor. And all the staff can not take time off. The ants “wanting to be” has to work.
If you take the average facial expression of all people in Amway it must be dull or possibly hopefull.
Since there is no magic in the sales process it is just hard work – everyone try to not do it by working hard to build themselves out of hard work.
If you would call all your staff and say “stop all expansion” some people would leave immediately because the dream is built on expansion and trying to get out of hard work.
So stupid to have an idea – not to work and just make money easilly in a group where you don´t all profit from it.
If the system and the products are so great hire people and give them salary to expand the network so they make money from day one.
The dream would be a bit flat but the sum of the time all people in the organisation can be with their children would increase.
If you would share the income from the sales material, courses and events..
But wait a minute. There would be no income from sales material.
Why is that?
Molly Stagg on March 3rd, 2008
I’ve recently had two people from Amway try to recruit me too. It was a mega creepy experience. Anway, i wrote to Triple j’s Hack and told them about it. They’re keen on doing a story to expose Amway. I know they’re looking to speak to people who have had experiences with Amway, so if you want to help them out, and share you’re thoughts about Amway, E-mail them at hack@triplej.abc.net.au.
Cheers,
Molly.